Hi All

I expect you have read my other posts about robbie the westie who has got skin problems the reason i have posted a separate post is because the vet now seems to think he could have mites in his feet and wants to do some biopsies as he said this is the only way he can tell as fur plucking doesn't always show these up as they can burrow deep in the dogs skin, he has had skin problems for well over a year now and i have switched him to raw diet without any luck and he has now gone back to licking his feet until they are sodden, he has been on ab's which cleared the pustules he had but not stopped the foot licking, we went back to see the vet this week and he said his feet are very sore and this is what he has now suggested having done under sedation.
My query is if these were demodetic mites in his feet would he be biting and licking them all the time during the day and not just overnight when he is on his own, he usually starts flicking his feet during the evening as if they are bothering him and then licks them sodden over night, don't want to put him through further anaesthetic if not needed and i have not had any dealings with mites before so not sure how they affect dogs so thought some of you on here may have more knowledge.

Thanks

NO, demodetic (sp) mites do not cause any itching but secondary infection will.

Would they only affect the feet though?

No, they are all over but particularly the feet and face, but the area affected will differ and the outbreak is usually triggered by stress. The dog can loose hair almost right over the body, all dogs have this mite but it only causes problems in dogs whose immune system is reduced and the immune system becomes reduced when the dog is stressed in some way can be anything from an accident to a change of food and all stops between.

I once read about a dog that had ear mites that only itched at night. Turned out the dog lay in front of the fire which made mites active, dog went mad with scratching but was ok during the day.

I believe there is a variant of red mange called demodectic pododermatitis. As the name suggests abnormal population levels of the mite are confined to the paws and toes. The dog gets bacterial infection and the mites and infection get deep into the skin. It is quite hard to treat. I think your vet may on to something.

I understand your reluctance for another ga but he is suffering atm and it may be the best way to rule something out or indeed find the answer. What do others think or shopuld hamish try thornit or diatomeous (sp) earth first ?.

If he were mine I'd stick with the Homeopathic Vet only, follow his instructions to the letter and hope that he can help to rectify the now seriously compromised immune system.

And.....if he were my dog I would stick with the Homeopathic Vet only.....and follow his/her instructions to the letter.

My own feeling is that you are dealing with a Dog who is suffering from Vaccinosis.

A Homeopathic writer in 1884 wrote...

It is a dozen years since this little volume was first printed and during these years I have steadfastly followed in my treatment of disease the lines indicated therein. With what result...?? Successes not even dreamed of by those who cannot and will not believe that vaccinosis is a very great clinical truth, and one of enormous therapeutic range.

1884...?? How much more vaccinated are people today....and now our dogs....who are not only vaccinated once....but vaccinated year after year after year after needless year...and with more and more and more dis-eases. (And on top of that...subjected to increasingly powerful chemical parasite control both internally and externally)

would Thornit treat the problem as it can be used of the feet for mites.  Don't know enough about mites to say.

I know what I would do for mites but this dog has a serious immune system problem and so I wouldn't venture any suggestions other than do exactly what the Homeopathic Vet suggests. 
I wouldn't be going anywhere near the Vet who vaccinated and prescribed Advocate to a dog who was obviously not in the best of health.
I feel so sorry for Hamish who is constantly itching - it must be like a torture - and I really hope he gets relief soon. :(

Gonna see what the homeopathic vet says tomorrow before i do anything else, if he says give thornit a go will try it but want to make sure i cannot make him any worse in trying this, will let you all know how we get on after we have seen him tomorrow, paws crossed for good news

What is his skin like under the hair all over his body is it pale or inflamed do his ears get inflamed at same time as the feet.
Does he get any treats at all.
I had one i really thought would have to be put to sleep she was so bad tried everything under the sun so i thought then realised 1week after booster shots she was going nuts.
I stopped all treats and completly changed her food in 3 weeks she was a different dog no more scratching biting or eating herself and she never had any more boosters either.
She was able to have some treats after this as long as we were careful and only gave lamb biscuts.

How is hamish today.  did you have any luck at the vets/

Well been to the homeopathic vet 1st thing today with Robbie, he has agreed that his feet are very sore more than he thought they would be, the rest of his skin at the moment isn't too bad pustules have gone for now, his ears are clear even though he has been shaking his head, his glands were full again which he cleared but not infected.
He said he feels we are coming to the end of homeopathic treatment with robbie and this may be the best we are going to get him which i was surprised at, he said we are definitely dealing with an immune compromised dog, he said to continue with the msm and echinachea the other 2 remedies he has been on for a while to keep him on, he doesn't agree with the biopsies of his feet as he feels the vets are just making money out of robbie and putting him through more than they should be, i asked him about the thornit powder and he said definitely give it a go and see where that takes us as he has heard good reports about this powder in the past and he said it certainly cannot do him any harm, he said to stop the foot washes and concentrate on the powder for now and to let him know how he gets on after using this for around 10 days.
He doesn't agree with an elizabethan collar as he said this will stress him out all the more and what we don't want to do is stress his skin any more than it is already.
I asked him why we have to keep on relying on ab's every time he gets pustules and he said some dogs have to be on them for periods of the year when there skin is bad and with robbie this seems to be the same, he is totally against steroids and atopica and said not to even consider going down this route as they will do him more harm than good.
As for food wise he said to try to introduce another meat protein perhaps lamb rib bone alternate mornings to the chicken wings and perhaps lamb in the evenings some days instead of the pure chicken, he said look around for another company that does lamb and bone or some other meats but don't try too much too quickly with him as we will need to monitor what he is eating and for any relapses otherwise we won't know what is working and what isn't, does anybody know where i can get other raw meats from as i have been getting my pure meat from natural instinct but they don't do a whole range and i don't want to go back to feeding the complete with fruit and veg again. I was told about rawtogo but not sure if this would be okay for the bone content.
I hoped there would be more options available to robbie homeopathic wise so i am a bit disappointed and for me relying on ab's every time he gets pustules which is roughly every 4 weeks at the moment just isn't fair to him long term but perhaps my hoping isn't going to happen for him afterall.
At least i know the biopsy route isn't worth going down and he also felt redoing allergy testing was pointly and a waste of money aswell, just not sure what else to try for him now somebody suggested having a 2nd opinion from a different homeopathic vet but not sure if this will be worth it if the 1st one has already exhausted most avenues.
Just feel i am not doing enough for robbie and should be doing more for him but everywhere i turn i just seem to be coming up against a brickwall.

> He doesn't agree with an elizabethan collar as he said this will stress him out all the more and what we don't want to do is stress his skin any more than it is already.

So how exactly does he suggest you stop the licking overnight?

> does anybody know where i can get other raw meats from as i have been getting my pure meat from natural instinct but they don't do a whole range and i don't want to go back to feeding the complete with fruit and veg again. I was told about rawtogo but not sure if this would be okay for the bone content.

As you are only dealing with a small dog, I'd be inclined to get lamb from the butcher or farm shop, it will be more expensive but at least you won't have to bulk buy. If you go to a butcher that does his own butchering, as opposed to buying it in already done, I'd get breast of lamb which will have a good amount of edible bone and meat (this is what I mean: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.absalomandtribe.co.uk/Images/lambBreast.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.absalomandtribe.co.uk/lamb.html&usg=__hC3Ci-4_YQIIOQ_KvGLY8jsXoYw=&h=285&w=350&sz=58&hl=en&start=44&zoom=1&tbnid=tJUwsxDM6ft8EM:&tbnh=149&tbnw=183&ei=uGxRTdbVHYiJ4Aah79X2CA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbreast%2Bof%2Blamb%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DGQW%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Ds%26biw%3D1239%26bih%3D806%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C1124&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=771&vpy=528&dur=83&hovh=203&hovw=249&tx=121&ty=102&oei=cGxRTZDfK5KGhQeY_aXTCA&esq=3&page=3&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:44&biw=1239&bih=806).

Just a thought but as he only seems to lick at night when his paws have been done with hibiscrub could that be making it worse ? It is quite harsh stuff I wouldnt like it on my hands if they are sore. I wonder what happen if they are bathed in something soothing or even good old salt warm water

>He doesn't agree with an elizabethan collar as he said this will stress him out all the more and what we don't want to do is stress his skin any more than it is already.

Are these your words or his?  I find this element of your posts a bit frustrating and despite a lot of advice to take steps to prevent him getting oral access to his paws this resistance to a collar comes up time and time again.  I have an itchy dog so I really understand the anxiety BUT Robbie must not be allowed to get to his paws and you really need to take EVERY measure to ensure he cannot.  It does not have to be this type of collar and I've given some advice on your other thread about alternatives but he must be stopped from doing this.

Even a collar like this needn't be stressful as there are ways of helping them to manage.  My dog goes rigid and won't move if he has a collar on so I'd never leave him for a second whilst it's on and I carefully position him in safe position so he can fall asleep next to me.  In the early days, before we got on top of his allergies, I'd sometimes sleep on the sofa next to him if he couldn't be relied upon to stop scratching or biting.  A collar is a last resort for some dogs but it is necessary when nothing else works.  You just need to adapt your situation to help him cope.

Also do change his vet bed to a 100% cotton sheet or towel - vet bed can sometimes be too hot for a dog with aggravated skin and make it worse.  Incidentally has your regular vet ever prescribed Fuciderm for the pustules?

>he only seems to lick at night when his paws have been done with hibiscrub could that be making it worse ? It is quite harsh stuff I wouldnt like it on my hands if they are sore.

Are you diluting it properly? I ask because I find it very soothing on sore skin, and not harsh at all. And do you make sure his paws are completely dry before you leave him to sleep? If they're still damp he'll lick them to dry them off, and not be able to stop.

Maybe a babygro with built in scratch mits would work.

Morrisons do lamb ribs and breast of lamb with bone that they will rib up for you, this works out a little cheaper.  I buy it for mine all the time.

Have you looked at what you bath him in, sorry if its aready been covered, can't remember or something he comes into contact with in the garden.  Could explain the itchy paws at night.  Sometimes theres things or spores that only come out at night.  AMybe try a pair of socks on him when he goes out and see if it makes any difference.

Theres plently on here that can advise you on alternative medicines.

Good luck xx

Has he ever had a full allergy York test, he could have a combination of allergies. If thats not been done then I would insist its done ASAP for in-house and out-house allergens. I agree a collar should be on him, you can take it off for walks and when you are with him constantly if you want him to have a break from it.

With regards to the homeo vet, I once took my GSD to see a very good homeo vet for his auto immune disease A.F, after 6 months of purely homeo treatment she advised me she could no longer help him and his condition had worstened.  Its always worth trying but if its not working you must for his sake get this sorted, if that means using a conventional vet then that is what you must do.

Thats interesting maybe when I used it I didnt dilute properly because I found it stingy on my hands  and I am not usually sensitive thats what made me think

Yes i dilute it to what the specialist told me last year at 1%, last summer when we used it with the ab's it worked a treat and stopped him licking but no luck this time. We blowdry his feet afterwards to they are dry before he goes to bed as we do it early evening so up for another 3 hrs anyway after being done, and like i say doing the same as last summer but this time its just not working.

My conventional vet did an allergy test about 18 months ago but they don't use york and sent it off to a different testing place i asked for york but with no luck, it came back with no indoor or outdoor allergies just a slight food allergy to duck which he has never had anyway.
I don't intend to let robbie suffer thats why i am looking into every alternative for him i just don't want him living on steroids or antibiotics for the rest of his life is that so wrong!!

I know I keep going on about this, and I see dogs a babe has asked the same question and is equally frustrated, but how are you going to stop Robbie licking his feet during the night if he isn't wearing a collar? What did the homeopathic vet suggest as an alternative?

One of my bitch's has a house dust mite allergy, she is now on Atopica to keep her comfortable, we have tried injections of the allergen, steriods etc but this is what suits her best, to itch continually must be so frustrating for any dog.  Why don't you ask your vet about Atopica? I wish she wasn't on any drugs but she has to be! Approx every 6 months she has a full blood test to check her general health on the inside as my reassurance these drugs arent causing her any damage, that's all I can do for her, its not ideal but she lives a itch free life and is a very happy dog.

He has a comfy collar on which stops him getting to his underneath in the groin area but he can still get to his feet, he suggested putting baby socks on him if we can get some and then sew on some velcro to stop him pulling them off which i have got today and am going to alter them but whether he will pull these off remains to be seen but worth a try.
The other collars i was sent a link to when i read the reviews these too people said they could still reach there feet with so these would be no better than the comfy collar he wears now.

which i have got today
Make sure that they're cotton and not synthetic.

I'd be getting an upto date allergy test if its 18 months since you had the last one done. Things can change and we can all become allergic to different things as we get older and our immune systems change.  Just even for peace of mind.

Yes they are cotton baby socks but just need to try and get some velcro put onto them now, bet he will pull them off though knowing robbie

Vets used to fix feet dressings with zinc oxide tape around the top.  Not sure what they use now?

Usually some form of Flexi-wrap. You can get wonderful colours!

oh yes I have some left over bright green. Bandaged my sons toe when he had an accident the doctor was very amused when he found out what the stuff was. Seems they dont use it for humans

I would leave the feet open so they can stay cool and dry up - I would put a Buster (Elizabethan) collar on??

My thoughts exactly, but Hamish has an aversion to Elizabethan collars and won't use them unfortunately.

>Yes they are cotton baby socks but just need to try and get some velcro put onto them now, bet he will pull them off though knowing robbie

... and draw his attention to his feet    ...again

I have every sympathy with Robbie but 'enough already'.  Your intransigence on the issue of a buster collar is not helping him to get better.

If you really will not consider this type of collar then you'll need to sleep next to him to ensure he cannot get to his feet; socks or not he's going to try and you have to be the one to stop him