I was at the vets this morning and came across a mother and son with a well known breed of dog. I sat there talking to them as I waited to be called in. They told me what was wrong with their bitch. Anyway I noticed that she had a very weepy eye and to me was a clear case of entropian, so did ask them if her eye was ok. The response was yes she'd had the operation years ago and was fine now, well clearly not as I could see the eyelid inturned and it was very weepy..

The next words spoken, the mother saying, oh we've not yet decided if to breed from her yet or not!!!, my last words were, "Entropian is very hereditary, would you really want to pass this onto the puppies? I wouldn't breed from her if I were you".  I was then called in before anything else could be said..I was nice to them in saying this, but I was horrified that they could even consider this...

I know that any eyelid confirmation issue is very complex(not clear cut hereditary), but I wasn't going to let these people carry on thinking it was ok to breed from this girl, especially in the fact that she looks nothing like the breed standard, has 2 health conditions and one which they still haven't finished dealing with either, which they clearly weren't aware of either :-(

I had a conversation with a lady I met about her dog. After telling they found out she had a heart condition and the breeder had stopped breeding from the mother after finding out about this she told me she was hoping to have puppies from her dog one day.
I did try to make her think twice but will never know if she listened

it is very sad, :( but even show breeders are allowing their stock to breed with this condition :(

I know Gemini as all they care about are the £'s they are bringing in, or am I being presumptuous?

i know suejaw, but nothing we can do, as these breeders get their thumbs in many pies, and little joe bloggs who knows what is going on in the background cant do anything apart from get angry and upset that things like this happen :( :( x x

Its people like i've mentioned and that you know of Gemini05 and FF that JH needs to be targetting, not those ethical breeders who really do care about the welfare of the dogs that not only they have in their care but what they produce also.

It all falls down to money at the end of the day and winning, that gratifying feeling they get when they make up a dog to a CH and then they can feel those £'s rolling in afterwards...:-(  Sad, very very sad...

>it is very sad, but even show breeders are allowing their stock to breed with this condition

I would think a lot of them aren't aware that it happens?  Even with the best homing attempts, dogs can fall foul of their new owners.

Saffi is a show-line lab - she was sold to a carefully picked home, with a contract stating she should not be bred and go back to the breeder if she needed to be rehomed.

At 4 years old she was in a random rescue, at 5 she had been rehomed, in October '09 she had a caesarian and in May last year I took her on after her owner's ex-partner was ignoring her because she was the ex's dog. :-(

I contacted the breeder - she was absolutely horrified, absolutely mortified that this had happened to one of her dogs.

Not saying there aren't show breeders who allow this to happen - just wanted to highlight that sometimes, it's out of their control :-( And it's one more reason I would never breed dogs myself.

Georges dad was used for stud many a time after it was made well aware to the breeders that he had hv,entropion,slipping pattellas,baos,larynx collapse,hiatus hernia etc etc,his litter sisters were also bred from,i personally think that was wrong,but sadly georges breed does not have the health testing some other breeds have,he will be 8 this year :)

The best breeders are most often the show/working people who care passionatly about thier breed. They take care and put all the safeguards in place. But on occasion things go wrong. Once the money has been handed over we have little control of what happens next. Unless we had a system like in the building trade where a covenant over something could be placed (ie when selling a new house the builder can place a covenant to say...No acces is allowed over the ground to build in the garden....) then the purchased HAS got to go back to the builder to gain permission. If they don't and build anyway they run the risk of high fines! Much as we talk about contracts etc.. without using a soliciter for every pup sold we really do have our hands tied. We can put some minor restrictions in place like endorsements but they will never stop those who breed anyway and lets face it 99% of pet homes do not care about KC Reg. In a breed like mine where the numbers bred are small, and the breed is popular BYB and PF will always have a ready market. We as breeders can only do so much, legislation needs to be put in force to regulate the breeding practices. The good do not need it as they do a pretty good job but it should not be possible for just "anyone" to breed a litter. I am in favour of a blanket ban on breeding without some sort of control check in place. Much as I know I will rub some of you up the wrong way here (Sorry) there is no place in todays society for random mongrel litters. The available breeds of dogs are wide and varied and there is a breed for everyone out there. All newspaper adds for pups should be stopped, all puppy selling web sites too. Everyone who wants a pup should have to go through the breed clubs. They should have to make some sort of effort in purchasing thier pup not just look in the paper and trot off the next day to pick it up! It is too easy to obtain a living breathing animal, thier lives have become worthless in the eyes of many. Here today gone tomorrow..new one next week.
There are good caring breeders out there...to those it is all about producing happy healthy stock..the CC's are the icing on the cake but should make no difference to the price of the pup. There is not one person who can look into a litter of pups and point to the next Champion with 100% success, all pups are born equal and will do what they do, some will be wonderfull examples of the breed some very nice happy pets, they should all have the same thought put into thier breeding.
People in our society today are happy to spend money and then throw it away for the next "In thing" it is society that needs to change. Some value needs to be placed on a life. I think the only way to do that is to make dog ownership hard to do, don't ask me how...I don't know!!!!!
Aileen

Do you not stand the risk of making dog ownership elitist?

If you cannot afford the hundreds of pounds to buy a certified pedigree puppy, then you cannot have a dog, because under your system there would be no cross breeds or affordable pups for the average family to own.
My daughter is a case in point. She has very little money, but owns a crossbreed that is given the very best of care, but cost her little to buy. That would have been a very good home lost under your system and a family deprived of the joys of being owned by a dog.

To me, the cost of buying a dog is the easy bit - you know how much you've got to save. 
But the maintenance costs over the next 12 years or so can escalate to enormous amounts, even with insurance, and can certainly run into hundreds of pounds.  There are regular posts on here about the rates of insurance increasing enormously and the excess to be paid is now larger too.
I wouldn't encourage anyone on a tight budget to buy any sort of dog - they need their money for their family. :)  Owning a dog isn't an entitlement.
I might think that my life would be enhanced if I could drive around in a Mercedes but I couldn't afford to run it so I have a lovely Astra!! :)
But a dog isn't a lump of metal - it's a living thing that needs the best of care.

Do you not stand the risk of making dog ownership elitist?

There are lots of things I would like to have ...but cannot afford. A life is far to precious to be handed over for a few pounds.
I am a firm believer in saving up and not having what you cannot afford. It is just a fact of life that there are things I cannot have or if I really want them I must work hard to get them. That is part of what makes them cared for.
I cannot change the fact that some have money and some don't.
Aileen

I agree SJ it is the general public who need to be conditioned into thinking differently about their dogs and reasons to breed if indeed to breed from them at all.  Most people do not need to breed. imo it should be left to those who know what they are doing, for good reasons, fully health tested dogs.
I hate the comments you hear eg she needs to have one litter. She is so lovely we want another so will have some from her , or well we didnt mean to but it kind of just happened with my friends dog and so on People should enjoy their dogs and leave breeding to people who invest the really time knowledge and money to have healthy dogs
ok off soap box now  !   

Absolutely right furriefriends!  Unfortunately there are morons who will breed regardless, knowing full well the health problems, even those in rescue - I know one woman who is planning to breed from her beagle cross "because she's a lovely dog" (actually she's an ill-mannered, hyperactive PITA).  She reckons B will have about 4 pups, and she'll be so careful finding homes that none will ever end up in rescue.

This woman is an idiot - I have told her this, and my many evidence-based reasons for why she should not breed - it's fallen on deaf ears.  She has been involved in rescue for 20 years - if someone like that can then be callous enough to go and breed from her cross, what hope is there for the less dog-educated people?

Personally I want to see controls on breeding - John Rogerson suggests a price limit of £50 per pup (as I would guess that the vast majority of breeding is done for money), and a requirement to obtain a license for EVERY litter bred, not just per kennel/breeder.  I think he's a genius.  No, those breeders doing all the tests would not be able to cover those costs - but would that not then mean that only those who can afford to do all the tests and are passionate enough about their breed to do it will breed,  because the rest (or most of) just won't bother if there's no money to be made?

Couple that with a huge drive on education - really mainstream - for all the info that is out there, the general public won't come across it if they aren't actively looking (and let's face it, the ones who are most likely to go out and buy on impulse, buy the wrong breed cos it looks cute, for a status symbol, etc etc are the ones who won't be looking) and they are the ones we need to reach.

> Much as we talk about contracts etc.. without using a soliciter for every pup sold we really do have our hands tied

As Trevor Cooper explained no matter how you tie up a breeding contract it will not work mostly because like the endorsements the KC put on registrations they have no standing in law, so are not really worth the paper they are written on. Also even if you have a strong contract and the owner sells the puppy then the contract is still between you and the original buyer not with you and the new owner, so no restriction on breeding can be passed on which is why the KC also has to lift the endorsements. However looking at it from another point of view if your puppy is resold and bred from if the puppies are KC registered at least you can find the details of the new owner and try to persuade them to get the dogs health tested and perhaps explain why you endorsed the pedigree originally.

One lady at a recent seminar told us she has a contract drawn up by a solicitor, which states that if a puppy buyer breeds from or sells on the puppy they have bought with out contacting the breeder first then they will have to pay a penalty of £1,000 to the original breeder, oddly enough that contract might stand as it is between the breeder and original buyer but it won't stop the new purchaser from breeding from the dog.

"the women is an idot" and I told her this. Really thought that was funny !!
You are right the genera; pupblic dont come across the information unless they are looking for information. Quick enough to pick up on dreadful things happening with dog attacks (quite rightly) but as for sensible breeding you have got to go looking and the fact is a lot of people dont.
Ok I will shut up now and get on with the housework  before I look like a bored housewife !!

> John Rogerson suggests a price limit of £50 per pup

That is not really practical as some breeds like my own produce 12 or more puppies and other may only produce 2 or 3. Even if it could be done that £50 would be passed on to the buyers and it would not stop the greedy uncaring breeders.

At my local vets even the receptionists and nurses have never heard of the BVA health tests (most of the Vets are pretty vague), and that is over several vet practises.

There are no posters advertising health schemes

Now come on Brainless, it's not in Vets' interest for all dogs bred to be healthy!  If they can't get money out of them for spaying their bitch, why do they then encourage pet owners to have a litter?  Because they'll need help 'cos they don't know what they're doing and they'll produce their next generation of inferior dogs which will pay the car payments for the next 10 years. :(
I've only every come across one Vet in 45 years who has any idea about breeding healthy dogs and that was because his wife used to breed Danes!

> Do you not stand the risk of making dog ownership elitist?
>
> If you cannot afford the hundreds of pounds to buy a certified pedigree puppy, then you cannot have a dog, because under your system there would be no cross breeds or affordable pups for the average family to own.
>

I'm sorry but most well bred puppies are not so expensive that someone cannot save for one.  Certainly less than the price of a Holiday for one person/couple, probably less than a good Music System, computer etc.

I have never had ready money, had to save for any major purchases, including the dog.

If it takes a year to save for a puppy it will ensure that research is done and that the person goes onto a waiting list for puppy rather than expecting to buy off the shelf.

Certainly most of my puppy buyers fall into this category.

When the basic health testing alone before breeding is around £500 then £500 - £700 for a well bred puppy is not a lot to pay.  Interestingly back yard breeders and the commercial outlets charge virtually the same price for unregistered stock as a good breeder who may have spent a fortune (health tests, travelling sometimes huge distances to studs) getting the pups onto the ground.

Nikita,
If you limit all pups to £50 what about those breed experts who know more than most but simply do not have money? Do we really want the breeding of dogs left to those who happen to have money? My neighbour has a brand new Range Rover, lots of disposable income and an excellent job however he is never home, only sees his children at weekends and doesn't know one dog from another. Nothing wrong in that, they are his choices but should we place dog breeding in the hands of his wife and family simply because they have money? I realise this is a specific exaggeration but I would suggest we all know people with more money than sense. :-) The theory is good, but as with most things the best way in practice is compromise.
Jeff.

> Most people do not need to breed. imo it should be left to those who know what they are doing, for good reasons, fully health tested dogs.
>

My thoughts exactly.

She has very little money, but owns a crossbreed that is given the very best of care, but cost her little to buy.

But what if the fact that she has a crossbreed with presumably parents that haven't been eye tested, checked for luxating patellas, hearts, hips, anything similar, eventually means that the dog will cost a fortune in vets bills and will be far more expensive to keep than a wellbred pedigree dog without those problems? I don't know what the English expression is but in Sweden we'd say we were buying a pig in a sack -i.e. you don't know what you are getting. It might be a healthy dog, but it might not.

>> I would think a lot of them aren't aware that it happens?

No we are both talking about show breeders who know their stock have problems, they operate on these problems, fine, but then they use them in a breeding programme themselves, thats the part we take umbridge with. These are show breeders who knowingly are putting problems back into lines and being quiet about it.. That is not on as its the puppies who will suffer this fate, maybe not the next litter, but maybe a few generations down the line..

> Personally I want to see controls on breeding - John Rogerson suggests a price limit of £50 per pup (as I would guess that the vast majority of breeding is done for money), and a requirement to obtain a license for EVERY litter bred, not just per kennel/breeder. 

If you set a ridiculously low limit of what a breeder could charge then most of us could not afford to breed.  Many breeders are on a fixed income or low income.  To breed you need to have the time, so not working, housewives/husbands, retired, or doing work that enables them to spend more time with the dogs.

Apart from the actual rearing costs of an individual litter (around £1800 for me, with average just short of 6 pups per litter).  Add to that the cost of keeping the rest of the line before and after they have their occasional litter (I don't recycle ex-breeding or show dogs).

Then you have the show or working costs to prove your stock (OK you might view that as an unnecessary cost) and the costs of importing new bloodlines be that travel abroad, or importing dogs or semen.

Who would be left able to breed pedigree dogs.

Oh yes the landed gentry as of old, when dog breeding and pedigree dogs were not in the hands of ordinary people.

Oh yes the landed gentry as of old, when dog breeding and pedigree dogs were not in the hands of ordinary people.
Certainly that was the way it was when I was a child.  Now anyone with a bitch thinks that they should be able to produce puppies.
We've gone from one extreme to the other in one generation. :(

> which is why the KC also has to lift the endorsements

This is not the case.  the Kennel club will keep the endorsements on if the breeder put them on correctly dn the original buyer signed.

The new owner has a case against the seller not disclosing the endorsements.

I decided I wanted another dog with regard to the cost side I have been saving for the best part of 6months
ao far including doing some extra freelance work to add to the pot still saving not only for cost of pup but also some extra for possible spaying vaccinations and odds and ends. No I amnot putting myself up as perfect nor am I particularly well off just saying if you want a particular breed you should be prepared to save up for the one you want with all the right test care etc. Does that make sense

> Does that make sense

Perfect sense, it is what I did, and then actually paid for the pup in instalments do ti was fully paid for by collection time (I did it that way so the saved money didn't leak away).

If you cannot afford the hundreds of pounds to buy a certified pedigree puppy, then you cannot have a dog, because under your system there would be no cross breeds or affordable pups for the average family to own.

But crossbreeds, especially the so called 'designer crosses' are often more expensive than pedigree dogs, sometimes 3 times dearer!

The reason must be that your getting two breeds at once, can't decide which to have?  Have both at twice the price. ;)

(tongue very firmly in cheek)

>it's not in Vets' interest for all dogs bred to be healthy!

I'm sure you meant that very tongue-in-cheek, because it's an outrageous slur, on a par with Jemima's "All KC dogs are freakish mutants".

I have just been to PAH and had an interesting conversation with a Man who took one look at Merlot and said " Oh a Bernese..we have a Bernese Poodle cross, you should have done the same they are so much more healthy being hybrid" After a long chat when I explained that I am a breeder and shower and an active club member..Merlot was a Champion...yes I bred the odd litter, yes they are quite short lived but I take that into account and choose from lines with some longevity, yes they have joint problems but I score for them and did the parents of his dog have health checks done? ...Not sure! Oh! and yes she does moult but then so would his if his wife did not pay the groomer to groom and clip it out every 6 weeks, Was I down the vets every week...well no acctually only for routine worming etc.... He was an inteligent man...but oh so poorly educated in dogs, He believs that all pure bred dogs are inbred and can prove it by saying there are not more then 50 families in any dog breed not related (Not sure where that gem came from) The cross breeders are making sure no puppies have the same ancestory he was not sure about close relatives in each individual side however as he has no pedigree! so then how would you know if you bred her say to another poodle that you are not doubling up on an ancester.....!!!! Oh and you paid more for her tham you would have for a puppy from health tested, happy healthy, look like the breed, know what it it's ancesters were like pure breed....I think I won...but I may not have LOL....
Aileen

>it's not in Vets' interest for all dogs bred to be healthy!

Sadly though JG....I would have to agree with Westcoast...and in talking to people it is the experience of many many folk....

When I look back...my happiest...healthiest and most long-lived animals are those that never had to see a vet....(except for the odd accident)

What price "progress"...??

On qualification all vets are required to swear the veterinary equivalent of the Hippocratic Oath

"I PROMISE above all that I will pursue the work of my profession with uprightness of conduct and that my constant endeavour will be to ensure the welfare of the animals committed to my care.

If anyone has evidence to the contrary they should make an official complaint.

Well I for one have a brilliant vet and the practice itself is great, no OOH with other vets...if I need them they are there. I think a lot of it is how you treat them as much as how they treat you. I have a good working relationship with mine. They support me with breeding and my "own" vet does a huge amount of reserch on my breed too. She will always listen to me and is very interested in anything medical I can find her about my breed. She loves to improve her knowledge of particular breeds. 10/10 to them I couldn't wish for better.
Aileen

There's vets and there's vets, just like there are breeders and breeders. Some are good, some are not so good. In general, I don't believe for a moment that vets want the dogs to be ill and just want to make as much money as possible out of clients. Saying all vets just want to make money in this way is the exact same as what the vet I used to work for said about dog breeders: breeders DELIBERATELY breed the dogs to be as sick as possible, because if they die young, they get to sell more puppies. (I MISS that rolling eyes smiley!)

In other words: lots of misconceptions about on both sides. And yes I have experienced some terrible vets, including one I deeply regret I did not report to every possible instance, but the majority have been very good. I've used vets since 1978 so have been through a few.

It can't always be easy to be a vet either, and see all the worst -it's no wonder they often get the wrong impression. I took some kittens to be vaccinated last week. Young vet -we tend to get the young, more inexperienced ones for routine stuff. She examined each kitten carefully for fleas, ear mites, dirty bums, runny eyes etc etc. Found none of it, of course. Looked genuinely delighted when she said "It's SO nice to see such healthy kittens!" Compared to the many randomly bred litters presented to them full of the above -fleas, earmites etc etc, it must make a nice change.

This one reason I started the Facebook group to get vets and their staff to join us. I have already had some vets and their assistants sign up. Take the details to your vet surgery and get them to put a notice up about the group.

In other words: lots of misconceptions about on both sides

Exactly....so who to trust...??

My very first vet back in 1979 was a very down to earth James Herriot type figure...straightforward...no nonsense..small but busy practice.....(even stitched up a chicken that I had saved from a fox who went on to live a happy chicken's life) and well liked and respected in the community. Since then I have seen local veterinary practices morph into Limited Liability partnerships...Some have been bought out by the "big boys" who are LTD Companies..... Maybe its just me...and old(er) age is making me more cynical but commercialism is a powerful driving force in all walks of life.

People have to be within a certain radius of a vet because of driving there in an emergency if neccessary....but a quick telephone survey by some friends and myself within a 20 mile radius quickly revealed a certain lack of empathy...shall we say....for "posh dogs"....and a complete lack of knowledge of latest research (Some like they were just reading from an instruction card left by the telephone...) 

How I long for the return of my old vet. Like the previous poster's vet, he was a James Herriot type: his sterilisation set up was a pressure cooker in the corner! I once had a new born with fluid on the lung. Mike saw this pup daily for 7 days, each day delighted & surprised that he was still alive and on the last day when I had stopped offering cash & took my cheque book ,Mike said, "Oh make it 50p and put it in the charity box in the corner."  Would that happen today?  I proposed that vet for the Queens Honours and he was awarded the MBE for his compassion to people & animals. These days, as mentioned, all the "caring profession" are selling out to the conglomerates and we are the ones picking up the pieces. Many care about nothing except profit and the Judas syndrome is evident in a lot of practices. Sell up for a fast buck & s*d the clients.  A small practice is virtually impossible to find.
A bit off track here................ sorry.

Well this post has cheered me no end, makes it all worthwhile:
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1214413#pid1214413

Its good to see new people in breeds wanting to do the right thing :-)