There are quite a few terms being bandied about here and I would like to understand exactly what is meant by them.

What do people understand by 'Back yard breeder' and 'Hobby breeder' are they not the same thing?

What defines a 'Puppy farm'? anything besides the obvious has lots of puppies of various breeds?

Surely making a profit out of breeding is not totally unacceptable as long as the dogs are treated in a good manner and all relevant tests are done

We've probably all got different ideas but to me -

A Hobby Breeder is someone who is heavily involved with their breed.  They regularly show or work their dogs and breed to keep a puppy and improve/maintain the quality and gene pool of their breed, often going to extreme lengths to this end ie travelling to the other end of the country or even overseas for the right stud dog.  There are very few large kennels around these days and so it's the enthusiastic hobby breeders who generally keep breeds going.

A Backyard Breeder is someone with little/no knowledge or involvement with their breed.  They will often mate their own pet quality dog and bitch together, or use a local dog rather than travel to the best stud to improve their bitch.  They do not show or work their dog/s and so have very little 'shared knowledge' from others with experience and can therefore offer very little both to the breed or the people who buy their puppies.  They usually produce poor quality puppies just to enjoy the experience or to sell.  IMO they do as much damage to their breeds as Puppy Farmers do if not more. :(

A Puppy Farm to me is a commercial set up when puppies in a number of breeds are produced to sell.  They continually mate their own dogs and bitches together and the pups that they produce rarely look like their breed and often have health/temperament problems.

Loosely a 'Hobby breeder' is someone that has a passion for their breed and it's welfare, breeds as part of their hobby/work with dogs.   That may be showing, Gundog/Sheepdog trials etc, in other words the kind of small scale ethical/responsible breeder encouraged here.

it should not be someone who looks on producing puppies 'as a hobby', that is a 'Back Yard Breeder', though they often refer to themselves as Hobby Breeders.

Such a breeder may be small scale but they do not health test, show or work their dogs, or breed for any standard, it's simply about producing puppies.

A 'Puppy Farmer' is purely commercially motivated, this may be on a fairly small scale or huge numbers.. 

There are occasionally 'commercial breeders who have a good standard of facilities and care, but they do not health test, prove their stock in any way, and the breeding stock and pups do not have the kind of socialisation a companion animal needs and should have, they are kept and reared as 'livestock'.

These links give more descriptions/definitions:
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm
http://www.dogsey.com/dog-breeders.htm

I guess that puts me in sort of no man's land lol

I do not show or work my dogs.

But they have all the relevant health tests.
I researched the pedigrees very carefully and travelled a long way to find the 'right' stud dog. I actually repeated the mating a year later because although the pups were (and are) superb, they were all male and I wanted a bitch to keep.
The puppies are reared in the kitchen and are well socialised and I like to think that I get them the best homes available

How can you research pedigrees if you don't have the opportunity to see any of the dogs in the pedigrees?  Pictures in books are never a true representative of the dogs.............
Or do you mean that you just check to see that there are no shared ancestors?
And why do you produce puppies?

Most of my research has to through pictures as I do not have the time r opportunity to go to many shows. I have had a very good mentor (the breeder of my first bitch) and she had guided me in the choice of stud.
Dog shows in Northern Scotland are a little thin on the ground and I wouldn't like to limit myself to just what is shown and available locally. Personal circumstances mean that I cannot spend nights away in order to attend shows in the South.
It has not been a case of finding a dog who has no common ancestors as they do have ancestors in common - purposefully so. I do understand the basics of genetics (Does anyone ever fully understand all the nuances of it!) and bred ponies for many years. These were often very successfully line bred back to a common ancestor that had the traits we were looking for.

I produced my last 2 litters in order to get the bitch puppy that I wanted.

Ok, so if I had a bitch of good quality which I didn't show or worked, & Just wanted to breed one litter off her to keep a puppy I would be classed as a BYB? Even though all of the recommended health checks were in place and a good stud sought?
  As for puppy farming, I think that there is a lot of misconception that the term is used in terms of the welfare of the dogs and conditions which they are kept.
  Personally, when someone breeds dogs in volume for financial gain rings alarm bells to me. Some breeders may have 3 or 4 bitches from different lines whom are whelped just once a year, but still I think that is on Parr with the term "puppy farming"  

> Ok, so if I had a bitch of good quality which I didn't show or worked, & Just wanted to breed one litter off her to keep a puppy I would be classed as a BYB? Even though all of the recommended health checks were in place and a good stud sought?
>

Unless the breed was a numerically small one then I would say someone with 'only that aim' (keepign oen puppy) should go back to the breeder or owner of the same lines who is serious about their breed and get a puppy from them.

After all the health testign aloen for the litter is likely to be more than the price fo a puppy. 

Even breeding one litter carries lifelong responsibilities, or the puppies and their owners.

In a breed like my own a pet owner willing to breed from their health tested bitch may help keep the gene pool more open, but to be honest it would be the stud dog owner and the bitches original breeder  that would need to be mentoring the person to produce a litter for the good of the breed,a dn ti will be their expertise and knowledge being used.

How would you know that your bitch was good quality if you didn't show or work her?

I would never encourage a pet owner to have a litter just to keep a puppy.  It's like us having a baby with just our best friend with us rather than an experienced midwife and really not worth risking a much loved pet.

Unless the bitch is of exceptional quality needed for the breed, then it's far better to buy another puppy rather than add to the pet dog population.  If an owner mated a pet bitch for a one off litter with no real experience of the breed as a whole, then yes, I would certainly call then a backyard breeder. 

Apart from anything else, I don't think that that person could possibly provide the back up support and knowledge that the new puppy owners deserve.

I agree. Mentoring would have to play a major part.

There has to be a purpose to the litter, other than the short term goal of keeping a  puppy from Flossie.

I am just talking in general tears here, but didn't everyone start somewhere? I understand that someone has to be educated about a particular breed right through from puppy to adulthood. But I also think that BIG mistakes are being made out there because people try doing it alone than seeking or having the help from people who are established in that particular breed already.

Don't forget the Bank Book Breeder - definition "one who breeds because they want a new TV, Cooker or holiday" - no health tests, use the nearest dog you can find, do nothing that costs anything, advertise in a free paper and hope the litter is large enough and is sold young enough, certainly before they eat to much, to leave you with a profit.

but didn't everyone start somewhere?
Certainly. :)  But we're talking about living things here - it's not like trying a new recipe and throwing the cake in the bin if it doesn't turn out right.  Inexperienced breeders are selling their mistaked to unsuspecting families to live with for the next 12 years.

The idea is to learn first before thinking about mating a bitch and the best people to learn from are from others who have been involved for years.  The places that those people meet are at dog shows or other dog events.  That's why we suggest that as a good starting point BEFORE thinking about breeding anything. :)

people try doing it alone than seeking or having the help from people who are established in that particular breed already.
I agree but unless the bitch is really needed for the breed gene pool, why should someone who has spent years of time, money and emotion immersing themselves in their breed, share their experience with someone who wants to have a quick litter rather than buying a well bred puppy??????

To me to be a serious breeder is a serious committment and if people can't or won't make that committment, then they shouldn't be producing puppies.  But of course that's just my opinion and people will.  They are backyard breeders or puppy producers, which ever you prefer. :)

I agree 100% :)

>Don't forget the Bank Book Breeder - definition "one who breeds because they want a new TV, Cooker or holiday" - no health tests, use the nearest dog you can find, do nothing that costs anything, advertise in a free paper and hope the litter is large enough and is sold young enough, certainly before they eat to much, to leave you with a profit.

Think that is what is termed a Back yard breeder, better term methinks, more descriptive.

After all most of us have homes with Back Yards/Gardens, where we breed, few having purpose built kennels etc.

> To me to be a serious breeder is a serious committment and if people can't or won't make that committment, then they shouldn't be producing puppies.  But of course that's just my opinion and people will.  They are backyard breeders. :-)

You said it so much better than me.

but didn't everyone start somewhere?

The way it always used to be, and certainly was for me, is that the breeders started off by buying a dog from a good breeder (I ALWAYS picked wellknown breeders even when buying my pets, right from day one did I pick breeders known to do well at shows with a good reputation -and it was possible to find that out even long before the internet), maybe even buying it as a pure pet, got encouraged to show or work it, became more and more interested in that scene, and the thought of breeding came as a natural continuation from that new hobby -wanting to breed something YOURSELF to show or work. To improve a breed, to leave your mark. It seems to be just in recent years that people do it the other way around -breed first -and maybe never show. In a way you can compare it to families -years ago the norm was you met somebody, got married, had a baby -these days it's often baby first. Yes that's slightly different, but I think it shows the entire outlook on society has changed.

To me, there is still a right point to start at, and that is to get involved in a breed BEFORE thinking about breeding. Being a breed club member, showing or working or both, taking an active interest, letting that interest grow over several years and then eventually take the plunge and breed.

very good post marianneB
xxxx

In practice, a enthusiast or 'hobby breeder' will tell potential owners that the new owner must convince the breeder to sell a puppy and will most likely be keeping one or more.

The Back Yard Breeder or cheque book breeder will invite you to 'Take Your Pick' with usually the whole litter to chose from.

It's eventually something i would like to do in the future, but it's certainly not something i am going be rushing into.  I am learning the ropes.....  health issues within the breed, breed standard, joined the breed clubs...etc etc

I have been showing for only a couple of years and would also like to get into the working side of things in the future....it's an expensive hobby! :)

I think WestCoast had pretty good definitions but I'd go a bit further to clarify:  A Hobby Breeder as she describes it is someone for whom dogs (working, showing, obedience etc) are the hobby not just breeding.

I always wince when I see posts from people who claim not to be breeders but let their pet have a few litters because they love puppies.  These are people who sometimes appear to see breeding per se as their hobby.  They have little interest in the betterment of their breed and lack the knowledge formed by working and showing their dogs to be the best judge of quality.  They just like having puppies, or want another 'just like flossie...'

I think it beholden on everyone to really think about what they hope to gain from having a litter, but I consider it much more important that we educate potential owners as to what qualities to look for in a breeder.  It doesn't really matter what the breeder, or others, call themselves as long as buyers are knowledgable enough to tell good from bad.