My 13 week old Sammie is still wetting his cage at night? He is also still barking for a while when he goes in any suggestions to what I am doing wrong?

I have had dogs all my life so have plenty of experiance raising pups ect but this is the first with this breed (have always had spaniels and terriers).

He has been with us nearly 4 weeks now and most definatly setteled in, however when it comes to bed time he goes into his crate lovely has his treat but within 5 mins he is still barking and crying, With other pups I have raised this has never been an issue they have setteled with the crate within a few days.

He is also wetting his bed? I send him out for wees before bed time and always make sure he has been, I have even started controlling the amount of water he has, Ie a bowl with each feed and one in between and I dont let him have any more water after 6pm.

I have witnessed him doing this, he just blaitently stood and weed no sooner had i shut the door, Grrrrrrrrr lol

His crate is in the "dog room" where he spends most of his time (through choice as he has the run of the house except upstairs), Just dont understand why he is doing it still as I have done everything that I have always done and more :(

Limiting the amount of water he gets is a big no-no. Water should be available 24/7. If he is weeing in his crate he obviously needs to relieve himself and you really need to let him out during the night, it's a lot to expect the little chap to hold on all night.

I always have puppies in a crate by my bed so that I can hear them moving around when they become unsettled. I then get up, take them out, praise them when they've toileted and with no fuss pop them back in the crate and go back to sleep.

By having them next to me I can offer a hand of comfort and to let them know they aren't alone. Most pups settle very quickly this way. If you don't want them in your bedroom long-term the crate can gradually be moved to it's final place.

Is his crate possibly a bit big for him.
It might be large enough that he thinks he can divide it into bed and toilet. Until he has got the hang of it, the bed wants to be quite snug fitting with just room for the bed in it.

> I dont let him have any more water after 6pm

Under the new Animal Welfare Act you are breaking the law. 

> I send him out for wees before bed time

If this has worked for you in the past, it has been more luck than your experience of raising pups.  I would expect any pup owner to go out with a puppy and wait for it to perform.  It is how you train them.  If the pup is "sent out" and actually wees, it does so because it wanted to go, not because it thought it was the right thing to do.

> however when it comes to bed time he goes into his crate lovely has his treat but within 5 mins he is still barking and crying,

Which means that he is distressed, and has been for weeks.  Take pup into your bedroom at night, and start training as you would for an 8 week old pup.  Set your alarm at intervals throughout the night so that pup is not expected to wait all night to empty his bladder.  To be fair, I think it is a lot to expect a 13 week old pup to be fully housetrained, but if you go back and start house training properly, you will be helping your pup, by setting him up to succeed.  So many people have come to CD with the same problem, and have reported back that it made such a difference to the pup, feeling more secure by being near them.

I have always raised pups the same way as have my mum and my gran and its always worked !! Start as you mean to go on meaning less stress for pup in the long run. Besides I DO NOT WANT the dogs up stairs so having him in the bedroom is a big NO NO imo as he will then feel its his right to be up there. I have however tried him in the hallway but this made it worse as he could hear us. I apriciate that letting him out at night when he asks is a good idea but he will then learn that if he barks he gets let out, which i have made the mistake in doing when all he really wants to do is not be in his cage !! I only use the crate at night as my husband works from home and if we go out he comes with us so no need to use during the day, Its been suggested maybe pop him in there during the day for a short while also?

   He is currently in a cocker spaniel size cage maybe a tad big but a smaller cage would be too small. The other option i was thinking was get a cage big enough for a fully grown Sam and put paper one end, This is not something I have ever had to do do they just stop messing in there cage or do you have to re train them?

I wasnt aware I was breaking any laws was folowing a suggestion made by a few ppl inc the vet, but thanks for the advice and the water has been put back down :)

Oh I should add he isnt alone he has my other dog with him (not sharing a crate) .

> The other option i was thinking was get a cage big enough for a fully grown Sam and put paper one end, This is not something I have ever had to do do they just stop messing in there cage or do you have to re train them?

As with housetraining in general, all you are teaching him is that it's OK to toilet indoors/in his crate. I never use newspaper as I don't want my dogs to learn it is OK to toilet indoors, outdoors is where they should be doing their business.

> Start as you mean to go on meaning less stress for pup in the long run.

Totally disagree with that comment. However much you don't want him in your bedroom, that is where he will feel most secure, because that is where you are and can offer him reassurance and will be able to hear when he needs to go out. It doesn't have to be long-term. He feels lonely and unsettled being on his own, afterall he's had his littermates for company prior to coming to you. Is it really fair to leave the little mite distressed?

I don't like dogs upstairs either and what worked for someone else is to sleep in the same room as the pup and then each night move further away from him until you are back in your own bed. Would it be an issue for him to have the run of the dog room with your other dog and be shut it there over night with the crate door open?

He was on his own when we got him as his litter mates had already gone he did have mum but not in the same crate, What I may do reading your suggestions is set up camp with him rather than move him from his room?

I have been highly advised by everyone I have met who has this breed to make sure he is crated, Have also been told that they can be extreamly stubborn and when they find something that works they will continue also if they dont like something they wont do it. lol.

Lol yeah the breed can be stubborn.. Especially the males... My friend keeps saying that about hers.. See it first hand too.. There are Sammy people on here, if the breeder can't help and you want some more breed specific advice PM me and I can ask my friend who has been in the breed donkey's years, she breeds and shows..

> What I may do reading your suggestions is set up camp with him rather than move him from his room?

That would certainly be a good compromise!

Some pups are just different - I had one wet one who peed in his bed for ages but my latest pup (nephew of the aforementioned) was dry almost immediately.  You do have to adapt your ideas and strategies to suit each dog.

If you are here asking for advice then it presumably means you are open to suggestion and willing to try different things.  Starting as you mean to go on does not cause less stress for the pup.  Young dogs, like any young, need lots of 'comfort' in their early days and leaving them all night can be very distressing, you need to be teaching your pup how to alert you if he needs a wee and how to settle back to sleep when he stirs.

Contrary to popular opinion having a pup in your bedroom does not 'create a rod for your own back' neither does it set a precedent for your dog in later life.  In truth, your pup simply learns that the crate is bed and wherever the crate subsequently goes, so does he.  At 13 weeks you have missed the easiest stage as your pup is now quite heavy to carry downstairs (have them with you at 8-10 weeks and they are much lighter!)  but you still have important things to teach each other.  Your sounds of sleeping (and snoring) will sooth an agitated pup and mimic the noises it will have heard when with it's litter, you also give the clear message that lights off means bed time.  Your pup needs to be able to tell you when it needs a wee 'urgent', and you will be able to learn the different signals he gives you.  Going to him when he is just shouting isn't perfect when crate training but of course this is what happens when you leave your pup at night as it can take much longer to get back downstairs to him.  Having him by your bed (upstairs or camped next to him) means that you can intervene at the snuffling stage and your pup will never get completely distressed.

Other points: yes do use a smallish crate to start with, don't add paper as it's confusing, do pop him in and out regularly during the day but particularly when you know he is due a nap, never shut your pup in a crate when he is fully awake as it just teaches him to yell, give him things to do in there whilst he nods off (a stuffed kong is good), always stay with your pup every time he goes outside to give praise and rewards for toileting on command and going quickly.

Finally be prepared for accidents.  As I said, I had one who was dry almost immediately and another who would pee in his crate til he was nearly 5 months old - incidentally he is the one that spent the shortest time in our bedroom at the beginning.  I do not think that was a coincidence :)

Very good post dogs a babe, basically what I was trying to say but much more eloquently put!

I too don't want dogs in the bedroom but with our current pup for the first 5 weeks he slept in with my daughter - he is now in the kitchen in his crate and adjusted fine.

He hasn't wet in his crate and no longer needs to go out in the middle of the night.

but I do think we have been very lucky with him.

I don't restrict water as not fair and not sure it helps at all really?

I go out for plenty of toilet breaks during the day and wait til he's been - we have had the odd accident indoors usually just getting the timing wrong on my part!  He gets rewarded for any toiletting - and now is almost peeing on command I use "wee wees!" as he performs.

Yesterday he even asked to go out for his poo!

He is 15 weeks now and although we aren't totally there he does seem to be getting there - the only set back is when it rains - he doesn't like getting wet but am sure he'll grow out of that - hope so we do get rather a lot of rain don't we!

He maybe peeing in his crate because he can smell it ...what cleaner do you use I would recommend parvo virocide then use some vet bedding rather than paper. Cover the crate with a blanket on all sides apart from the front  (apologise if this has already been mentioned)
I would also during the day put him in his crate while I am in the house pottering about so that he can see me. I have in the past moved the crate into the living room during the day and asked pup to go in it while I am watching tv..
so that using the crate becomes the norm during the day and at night whether you are present or not.
I have two crates in the kitchen my dogs push each other out of the way to get in them at bedtime ...all were not so impressed with them in the beginning but you need to persevere.
I never needed to take the crate up stairs but if I was hitting a blank wall I would give it a go eventually moving it down stairs later on.

I have been using bleach then completly cleaning the bleach off and putting lemon on it (only started with the lemon yesterday). I use vet bed for bedding !! He also has a cover covering all sides.

Well put him in his bed after lunch took him out for wees and poos and he went fine, as he was about to settle down for a nap I moved him to his crate as I shut the door to the crate he peed !! cleaned that up put him back in and he sat a cried and barked persistantly for 20 mins....

Oh I stayed in the room with him too !

Ahh..... it could be the bleach! It contains ammonias which are similar to some compounds in urine, so to him it still smells like the right place to go. Try cleaning it with diluted biological washing powder or Simple Solution instead.

I did wonder if it could have somthing to do with the bleach and smell, Im starting to get the feeling he is weeing when he goes in because he knows he will get the attention, well not attention as such but I will let him out so I can clean up. Mum is going to try and get me some stuff today that may help Urine off? I think its called.

>Im starting to get the feeling he is weeing when he goes in because he knows he will get the attention, well not attention as such but I will let him out so I can clean up

I strongly disagree, a young pup that has little or no bladder control wil not pee to annoy, get attention, irritate you, or manipulate you into a course of action.  It might however be anxiety or simply that he isn't empty.  Boys of this age will pee in several stages, they are far too busy to get it done properly in one go!  Mine would definitely pee twice if not 3 times before he was empty so you need to simply stay outside for longer.

Make sure all his needs are met before putting him the crate but don't stress about a bit of puppy pee, if he doesn't mind neither should you.  I think some pups find it comforting and as long as it's only a small amount the vet bed will wick the moisture away from him.  Don't clean it just before he goes in as the strong cleaning smells might confuse him - wait until he is busy elsewhere and allow time for the crate to air before putting some clean fleece in for him.  I'm not suggesting you leave him in a pee soaked bed or avoid cleaning it at all but just relax a bit - and he might follow suit :)

It is actually a small amount he does but its enough for me to whip him out and clean it. I dont get angry with him just dont want him sat in wee however he does ruck up his bed and cover it.

I wouldnt clean with bleach as MsTemeraire has said previously it can encourage peeing, you need to use a product that is designed for the job I use parvo virocide it kills all germs and has a pleasant smell it also can be used on concrete paths where your dogs toilet to remove urine smells so has a number of uses .Also remember to make sure the crate and dog area is completely dry before allowing dogs back in.
Do you let the dogs out together as usually a older dog toileting encourages a pup to pee too esp boys they like to pee on each others ;)
I think boys are a little harder to toilet train than bitches and some breeds are slower to pick it up too.

I would start again toileting ever 20 mins to half hour ( I also dont think  refusing him water from 6pm is a good idea either as that would mean 12 hrs at least without a drink is far to long in my opinion)
I agree with dogs a babe regarding peeing more than once to empty the bladder a quick in and out for a pee is not long enough for a pup , try take him in for a few minutes then take him back out again.
Sometimes its just the last half hour or so in the morning when he cant quite hold it in ..why not get up half hour early and  see if it makes any difference if fact he may pee when he  hears you up in the morning and excitment causes the lack of control which is normal.

When you say its a small amount of pee he does are you sure he hasnt got a water infection ? take a sample to your vet and have it tested ... if he has a water infection he need lots of fluids to flush it out...

> Start as you mean to go on meaning less stress for pup in the long run.

Totally 100% disagree with your attitude.  Young pups need reassurance and lots of folk would not leave a youngster crying and just ignore it.

I cleaned the bed so all fresh but i had put it down for my other dog to lay on, We went out for about 20 mins figured he had finished when he went a layed by the door so bought him in, I got his bonio out he suprisingly went straight to his bed and sat waiting for me to give it to him He has never willingly just gone in there! He had his bonio and Iv not heard a sound from him that was an hour ago :)

Start as you mean to go on meaning less stress for pup in the long run

Rubbish, basically. Sorry, can't see any other way around this statement. Starting off with pup in a location where you can hear what's going on and where pup feels comfortable is the sensible route to take. With a 10 year old child you may be able to apply this theory, as after all you can discuss and possibly reason with a 10 year old child. But we're talking about a young dog who has no reasoning skills, and in fact probably has no skills to understand the complete and sudden change from living with mum and sibblings, to a life of total isolation (albeit at the night time).

I'm not normally hard with my posts, I don't think, but I just don't see the intelligence behind this reasoning. Less stress to the pup? No. Less stress to you? As you've found out, no.

I agree, i learnt this the hard way with my first dog after my husband insisting she stayed shut in kitchen at night IMO, after having many more after her and keeping them upstairs as pups i feel i made her more anxious shutting her away for the first few days i had her and now she can't bare to be out of my sight.

Hi,

Sorry you are having problems. It's an obvious point, but just remind yourself that even the tiniest smell of urine might trigger your pup to wee- the smell makes them go before they even think about it, at his age it will not be controllable for him- it is an involuntary response. There is no way he is being manipulative.

There is a funny story that Bruce Fogle tells about how some male pups can become perturbed when they reach leg cocking age. The smell of wee triggers the brain to cock the leg, but it is as if the leg has a life of its own. Some pups have been known to look round at their back leg as if to say, what the heck is going on.

As others have said, the key may well be in scrupulous cleaning after each and every accident, even dribbles! I would favour thorough washing with biological washing solution and then a wipe over with a dab of surgical spirit- the latter makes sure the proteins in the widdle are broken down, so pup can no longer smell his wee. It is a pain to have do this but worth it if it helps the business of housebreaking and some breeds take much longer than others.

He is not on his own he is with my other dog!!

I think I may have solved the problem tho regarding how I was cleaning the crate, I was using bleach I stopped using bleach and he has stopped peeing. After washing his bedding I left it down for my other dog to sleep on with him put it in his crate and I had no barking or crying and no pee this am..... I got up an hour earlier than usual and he was v happy went took him out and he had wees.

Thanks for all the advice :) x

> I DO NOT WANT the dogs up stairs so having him in the bedroom is a big NO NO imo as he will then feel its his right to be up there. I have however tried him in the hallway but this made it worse as he could hear us. I apriciate that letting him out at night when he asks is a good idea but he will then learn that if he barks he gets let out, which i have made the mistake in doing when all he really wants to do is not be in his cage !!

You could start by sleeping where the pup is and gradually move away back upstairs once eh is settled at night.

also when letting him out for a wee, no talking or eye contact except to give him the toileting command and praise when he performs.

On returning to the crate room ignore him, make a cup of coffee etc, and continue to ignore him until he gets bored of you not interacting and goes to bed of his own accord.  If he drops off to sleep elsewhere put him in his crate and stay with him until eh settles, but again be boring.

It might be a good idea to build more positive associations with his crate.

Feed him his meals there with the door open, also any new playthings or treat are put in the crate for him to find.

Have started putting ALL his toys in there during the day so he can go in and get them as and when he likes, Have also been putting the odd treat in there for him to find. So far so good 2 nights now no crying , barking or weeing :)

great news sometimes just small changes are all that are required. good luck.

roni

Ah yes, the ol' bleach cleaner an excellent way to encourage more wees :-O

Hope your on the road to getting sorted. :-)