"judge didnt feel the dog was high enough quality for limit....would have given a prize if in lower class".......i heard this today from someone after their dog was witheld at a champ show but I cant believe its a valid reason is it??? Is there a "list" of valid reasons??

The red book says
F(1) 21m An award may be witheld if in the opinion ot the judge there is  lack of sufficient merit.  the judge has to mark on judges slips that the award has been so withheld. The judge is not entitled to withhold an award for any other reason

Was it a breed where 1st, 2nd or 3rd in limit gets a stud book number? Maybe the judge thought the dog wasn't good enough to be stud booked?

To place if in a lower class, ummm, I must admit I always wondered why classes could be withheld.

I was having a good debate the other week about withheld places and CC's, we were talking about very young dogs getting the CC out of puppy and I said I wouldn't award to a puppy even if it were the best so would withhold as I believed that it may not represent the breed once older/ fully matured or may be out of standard but made to a CH really young. Equally I said that if a dog was that good it would get title really easy once an adult

The person said that to withhold is saying the rest was rubbish and not fair, and if the pup was the best should get it irrespective of age and I suppose they were right, what do you guy's think?

> "judge didnt feel the dog was high enough quality for limit....would have given a prize if in lower class".......i heard this today from someone after their dog was witheld at a champ show but I cant believe its a valid reason is it??? Is there a "list" of valid reasons??

It's certainly a valid reason to withhold if the exhibit isn't of sufficient quality. I'm not sure about the 'would have given a prize if a lower class' but possibly a poor quality dog entered in maiden say may be given a place - after all it's not a crufts qualifier or a stud book number.

I was having a good debate the other week about withheld places and CC's, we were talking about very young dogs getting the CC out of puppy and I said I wouldn't award to a puppy even if it were the best so would withhold as I believed that it may not represent the breed once older/ fully matured or may be out of standard but made to a CH really young.

The judge isn't judging the future, but the dogs on the day. Hence the CC has to go to the best on the day, irrespective of whether it may be rubbish a few months down the line.

> I said I wouldn't award to a puppy even if it were the best so would withhold as I believed that it may not represent the breed once older/ fully matured

That doesn't make sense to me? surely you are judging what the dogs look like on the day? Would you withhold from a coated breed just because it might not be so good if it were out of coat? or an veteran because in a couple of years it won'rt be so sound or might have lost some teeth? The judge is there to pick the best dog there at the time not make judgements on how they will look years down the line. The whole class will look different 2 years from now and the puppy might still be the best.

On a different tack I thought judges were supposed to withhold now if the dog wasn't healthy or sound?

The judge isn't judging the future, but the dogs on the day. Hence the CC has to go to the best on the day, irrespective of whether it may be rubbish a few months down the line.


Agree with Marianne on this one.
I've always been told that you have to judge the dogs on the day, it doesn't matter the promise of what you think may come or if in your experience you know the very mature puppy/junior will go over by the time they are out of junior.
You have to judge it on that day and if it's the best there it should be awarded accordingly.

I think more judges should withhold by looking at some of the dogs who qualify for crufts or get there stud book numbers!

If a dog does not have enough quality or type then awards should be withheld but no way can a dogs age be a reason to withhold and if the judge knows the breed they should be able to have a pretty good idea how typical and of what quality a puppy is.

Maybe there weren't many dogs inthe earlier classes but there standard was slightly better than the limit dogs, but maybe inthe limit if he was up against others it just didn't look as good so didn't deserve being placed?

I have given pups BOB etc.  As others have said the decision should be what is best on that day, not what you might think (and may never happen) will happen in the future.l

> If a dog does not have enough quality or type

In the words of the KC judges book "you are not judging for "type" but to the breed standard."  The understanding I have always had from the KC to with hold awards if I see fit is that the dog must be far enough from the breed standard as to NOT be fit for purpose, ie. unable to carry out the job for which it was bred, maybe incorrect bite, atrocious feet in a hound, etc.  Excluding on the other hand covers things like lameness.  In my own breed a judge withheld last year as the dog in question was not of their "type", as they told the owner.  If I had been that owner I would have lodged a complaint as that just boiled down to personal aesthetics, and a predujice.  Yes the judge likes one line only that produces very bitchy feminine males but that should not come into judging choices.

I do think judges are too scared at times to with hold CC's though, they do not HAVE to award a CC (someone said whatever is the best onthe day has to get the CC).  That to me is a real problem as it makes up cheap Ch in some breeds.  I would like to see something along the lines of the FCI system of grading, and a critique on the day to every exhibit, rather than with holding as that leaves many in the dark.  Far better if the judge think the dog is not of good quality it gets a "sufficient" with a reason why, or a DQ even with a reason why.  I saw far more judges with holding CACIBS, or awarding only TB or DQ in the past couple of years abroad than with holdings of CC's here in 35 years.   Maybe having a workable option gives them more courage of their convictions? 

Puppys, I have seen CC's awarded in larger breeds as puppies with the animal at near maturity fall apart and not even be worth a placing.  And in a terrier I knew was a very young Ch but at 2 the bite had gone and should in reality not even been bred from as she passed this onto all her the offspring.  Again the FCI system of having a MINIMUM age for award of a CC would be better, 15 months at least, or even 2 yrs, with a requirement of a gap of 1 year and 1 day between the first and the 3rd (or 4th) CC.

In the words of the KC judges book "you are not judging for "type" but to the breed standard."

But if you are looking for a dog that fulfils the breed standard you are looking for breed type - aren't you?

If the standard calls for up-standing ears and the dog before you has ears that tip down they do not have breed type because they do not conform to the standard. You do after all judge to the breed standard of the breed you are judging and therefore the exhibits should have breed type.

You are looking for breed type (ie fits the standard) and fit for purpose (has enough breed type to perform the job the breed is meant to perform). Of course, an unfit dog is not considered however close to the breed standard it may be.

> The judge isn't judging the future, but the dogs on the day. Hence the CC has to go to the best on the day, irrespective of whether it may be rubbish a few months down the line.

After discussing both sides that was the conclusion we came to in the end.

>But if you are looking for a dog that fulfils the breed standard you are looking for breed type - aren't you?

The word 'type' is very ambiguous. There is breed type, which is vital, but there's also the 'sort' meaning of Type; this is where personal preference comes into it, which can be very dangerous in judging. Certain judges are known to favour a particular 'type' within the standard, and although other entries might fit the standard equally well they will be overlooked.

Yes, JG, see what you mean. I expect the exhibits before me to look like the breed they are, you expect a Welsh Springer to look Welsh and an English to look English that is even before you consider the conformation and fitness for purpose they must have breed type.

And yes, judges will have a preference, people do, would be impossible not to prefer some lines in the breed you are judging - what you must not do is allow your preferences to override the breed standard. To me that is preference not breed type and if you are aware of your preferences you can make sure they do not colour your assessment of the dogs before you, but it would be foolish to think you could not prefer some lines over others the aim being to keep that preference to yourself.

Ditto is should go to the best on the day after all you can't get the 3rd CC till over 12 months by which time it will be far more maturer.

> Hence the CC has to go to the best on the day,

The judge does not HAVE to award a CC, only if they deem the dog merits it. 

Has a CC ever been not been awarded?

> Ditto is should go to the best on the day after all you can't get the 3rd CC till over 12 months by which time it will be far more maturer

Even at 13 months some breeds are still very immature and will have changed considerably in another 6 - 12 months.  Some countries have classes for "puppys" up to 15 months for this very reason.   Toys and the little ones fine, but larger breeds really are slow to grow on and the physical changes that come with maturity can have knock on health effects.  A very young dog made up then goes onto sire 4 litters before it is 2 because everyone wants to use a Ch, at 2.5 yrs this dogs bite has become undershot (which is in the line but of course up to then it has been level), or it's rear end gives out (again in the line) and it is "retired" by 4 yrs old.   If there was a miminum requirement of age and time al la FCI this dog would never have been made up and saved another generation from serious physical defects that can decimate a breed.  Everyone talks about cheap champions abroad but I see many here too.

It is my belief that you have to award a BOB but you can withhold a CC - not sure if this has ever been done, it is hard to think of a situation when none of the exhibits in front of you would be worthy of the CC but if that is so then you withhold - do wonder if that is the case the breed should have them removed anyway.

Will be interested to know if this has ever happened - not in my breed I am sure but I suppose if the entry is low and the breed suffers from a condition like slipping patella then perhaps it has happened, you can imaging half a dozen exhibits in some breeds where all had this knee problem and a judge would feel the entry unworthy of a CC.

Also no dog can become a champion until it is over 12 months old.

I made up my youngest to champion at 14 months, she won her first two CC's as a puppy, and this in a breed that normally does not gain it's title until 3 - 5 years.

She has won A CC (at two years) and more RCC's since.  She is now 2 1/2 and hopefully should go on at the same level as a fully mature adult.

Our judge from last year at Richmond withheld CC at midland counties a few years backfor Greyhounds, he put on the write up for us last year that he was considering withholding for us too but did not think he would get KC support. In fairness though when I looked at write up for all 6 breeds he judged last year at Richmond from Rotts to Tibetan spaniels his criticism was the same ( the mouths) which is something that has never been previously said about our breed.

> Also no dog can become a champion until it is over 12 months old.
>
> I made up my youngest to champion at 14 months, she won her first two CC's as a puppy, and this in a breed that normally does not gain it's title until 3 - 5 years.
>
> She has won A CC (at two years) and more RCC's since.  She is now 2 1/2 and hopefully should go on at the same level as a fully mature adult

The age a Ch can be made up here had already been mentioned.  As you say HOPEFULLY she can go onto the same level as a MATURE adult.  You know your bloodlines and ancestory, and are responsible. 

But read my previous posting, many maxi - larger breeds are wonderful as puppys and juniors, even up to 2 -3 yrs old but when FULLY mature the physical defects are apparent, things that are not just "ageing", serious defects like incorrect bites, defective rear ends, and so on.  A young dog is rushed through to it's title often too young (certainly in my own breed), used then at stud several times because everyone wants to use the new Ch, or if a bitch produces a litter, or 2.  Sometimes temperament is easier to control in a puppy and young dog but the extreme of dominance and agression gets more difficult as it grows.  Now we have another generation of the breed with serious consequences to the future of it in the UK.

The classsic was some years ago a young dog was rushed through made up at 14 months, at 3 creeping from nerves around the ring it came under a judge who had been one of the 5 who had used it on a bitch, the judges face paled when she looked at the mouth and found an extreme undershot bite.

The past 4 years I have seen 4 Ch made up before 2.5 years old, 2 are now retired as the back ends have given way, 1 is dead through hereditary heart disease, 1 is dead through bone cancer of which it's mother, sire and g.grandparents also died of  before 5 yrs of age.  All produced offspring, who are now as very young dogs showing inherited tendancies.  This is in a breed with an average life expectancy of 12 years.  Not good at all.

Now I see dogs abroad getting CACIB's at 16 months, but by the time they are eligible for the 4th they are not even getting Ex gradings.  And maybe that is why the breed in Europe is going from strength to strength both in quality and exhibitor numbers but dying a death, literally, here.  Of course I am using my own breed as an example but a friend in a Utility group breed has mentioned the same problem, sadly much to her own personal expense after buying a puppy from the "top" breeder and now having spent thousands on dental work to save the dog unecessary suffering and cannot ever show it. 

In my breed some specialist judges  have a preference for colour ... I would not enter under these judges because even though I know she is a very good representation of the breed standard her colour would let her down to the point with some judges she would not be placed in a large entry.  In the early days of showing for me I was ignorant of this fact until it was pointed out to me the judges to pass on and those who dont discriminate against the colour of the dog.

    > Hence the CC has to go to the best on the day,

The judge does not HAVE to award a CC, only if they deem the dog merits it. 

That still doesn't change the fact it's the best on the day, not the best in the future.

I cannot see how a mouth can go seriously wrong after 12 months of age as all the teeth should be in by 12 months.

A just acceptable shallow scissor bite can go level with age or even slightly undershot.

As for basic soundness again the skeleton is mature in most breeds by 2 years of age.

Apart from imports in my won breed it is rare for any male to be used before maturity which takes around 4 years and we do in the UK show our dogs well into Veteran years.

My own older veteran is only just retiring at 11 1/2 (as her daughter is now a veteran and I can only show in Open or Veteran with the older two with my current girls).  Jozi won 2RCC's in 2010 including Reserve Best bitch at our breed club championship show for the second year running.

Because our registrations and numbers are low we are a top heavy breed in the ring with very few exhibits in the age classes or often even in Post Graduate.

Certainly your point holds very true even for our breed in the USA where puppies often become champions but few champions are specialied,(though of course the huge distances to campaign dogs means part of the reason dogs are retired is financial).

When I was in USA last month mating my bitch I was pleased to see the owners old guys still fit and sound at 12 - 14 years, even as kennel dogs.

When breeding one should be researching back the ancestors reasons and age of death etc.  In the ring the judge is required to judge the dog on the day.  Using a dog because of show record is not the best way to breed anyway. 

When we use a dog we are not cloning him, we are using his genes, hoping to get some of the positive qualities in the offspring but should be aware that the ancestors traits will play an important part, and of course those of the bitch.

A worthwhile policy, especially in breeds with late onset health issues and poor longevity is to always use a mature partner when breeding from a Young or unproven animal.  This way you have the health and longevity info on at least half the match (plus the info on preceding generations for the rest.

> I cannot see how a mouth can go seriously wrong after 12 months of age as all the teeth should be in by 12 months.
>
> A just acceptable shallow scissor bite can go level with age or even slightly undershot.
>
> As for basic soundness again the skeleton is mature in most breeds by 2 years of age.

You have just contradicted yourself there.  All the teeth are in place by 12 months.  However technically true undershot mouths are not down to the teeth but to the placement of the mandible which is the lower jaw holding the teeth in place.  And as you say the skeleton is in place in most breeds by 2 years (not 12 months), therefore there is still leeway for a true undershot mouth to emerge (the reverse can also happen - a slight undershot jaw can correct).  With age it is expected that even in a scissor bite the lower incisors may eventually pop forward which is perfectly acceptable in an older dog of say 10 - 12 yrs old, though I have just judged and found several young dogs under 3 yrs old with popped lower incisors for which I did penalise them.

I agree in the US that they make up Ch's far too young with regularity.  I do have American lines, and I show there at least once a year, having spent over 10 yrs living and showing there in the not too distant past.  Interestingly at the National Speciality out of the past 5 years BOB has gone to veterans twice under foreign breed specialists.  They highlighted the fact in both their critiques that they each found the Ch's class to be dissapointingly full of immature examples who had a long way to go before they would merit them being worthy of both AOM or BOB.  Though the average life span of my own breed in the USA is 12 yrs, here it is 10, and getting lower.  And in the US the field events still have dogs competing at 12 yrs old, I think most here would struggle to get round a ring if they managed to get them to a show!

That still doesn't change the fact it's the best on the day, not the best in the future
MB you have missed the point there, we were discussing the fact the judge does NOT HAVE to award a CC at all.  It is obvious IF one is awarded it goes to the best on the day!

>>That still doesn't change the fact it's the best on the day, not the best in the future
>MB you have missed the point there, we were discussing the fact the judge does NOT HAVE to award a CC at all.  It is obvious IF one is awarded it goes to the best on the day!

No, the point Marianne was responding to was that some people wouldn't give a top award to a puppy (even if it was the best dog there on the day) because it was immature and might 'go wrong' in the future, not fulfilling its early promise.

I bred a male dog who had a perfect bite, his bite stayed true then at 18m -2yrs it has slightly become borderline acceptable but not perfect ...which has really shocked me that it can alter so much. Can someone explain to me , is it common to alter so late..  ? it is a shame as this boy has potential , it will probably affect  him in the ring...

> I cannot see how a mouth can go seriously wrong after 12 months of age as all the teeth should be in by 12 months.
>
>

And then there are Cavaliers! :-)

Brainless I have one that went wrong after 12 months....believe me its possible!!!!

> I bred a male dog who had a perfect bite, his bite stayed true then at 18m -2yrs it has slightly become borderline acceptable but not perfect ...which has really shocked me that it can alter so much. Can someone explain to me , is it common to alter so late..  ? it is a shame as this boy has potential , it will probably affect  him in the ring...

EXACTLY the point I made in my previous posts.  Starryeyes, please re-read my post just before your's as I have explained in there why some bites can go wrong even at 18 months and older.  It does happen and can happen in any breed, some much more than others, and some now with alarming frequency.

Now how would you feel if you in all honesty thinking this would never happen campaigned this dog from a puppy and it gained 3 CC's in quick succession, a Ch at 13 or 14 months of age.  The everyone wants to use it, a young Ch, it must be marvelous, it sires say 3 litters in the next 3 months.  THEN the bite goes wrong, and it is something that has been passed onto the offspring, maybe 24 puppies.  That could be in some breeds 50% of the number bred in the UK in 1 yr, a large % of a diminishing gene pool.  This is the point I am trying to make that we make up (like the USA) Ch far far too young here.  Yes it is wonderful to have a young dog that is so good but I think of the future of a breed also, it does not stop at an incorrect bite, there are a multitude of other faults that may come to light with maturity.  This is not just about should a judge with hold more CC's, but should there be a higher minimum age for a Ch to gain it's crown.

Well maybe there was something in what our judge from Richmond said about not feeling he would get the support of the KC in withholding as he had withheld at MC with the Greyhounds so maybe there was something said to him? would be interesting to find out. Incidently he was a sweedish judge.

With this in mind Harkback then surely a consideration to have a minimum age for a dog to be used, say 2yrs as it is for bitches in most breeds, this would help protect breeds to some extent too.

> With this in mind Harkback then surely a consideration to have a minimum age for a dog to be used, say 2yrs as it is for bitches in most breeds, this would help protect breeds to some extent too

I would totally support that.  I never have let, or will let my dogs be used before 3 yrs old, in 40 yrs of being in the breed.  And that was drilled into me back in the 1970's by a then long time (50 + years in the same breed breeder).  He always maintained that if there was any kind of inherited risk that by that age you would have a good idea if the dog was a carrier.  Of course this was in the days before DNA and genetic testing but I still feel it holds true.  Same for bitches.  Now here it is the norm to "need" a litter from a bitch BEFORE they turn 3 otherwise you will never get one off her.  Opposite in the USA and Scandinavia for the breed where they generally do not consider one until the bitch is at least 3.5 yrs, majority would have one at 4 or 5 yrs old.

> Opposite in the USA and Scandinavia for the breed where they generally do not consider one until the bitch is at least 3.5 yrs, majority would have one at 4 or 5 yrs old.

With this being so, is there an upper age limit on bitches having litters or min time between litters too? Or is it a case of that any decent bitch would end up having 1-2 litters only? Why do they wait until they are that much older? I always thought that by waiting until 4-5yrs that for a first litter it can lead to more complications at birth?

> Well maybe there was something in what our judge from Richmond said about not feeling he would get the support of the KC in withholding as he had withheld at MC with the Greyhounds so maybe there was something said to him? would be interesting to find out. Incidently he was a sweedish judge.

The Swedish KC is clamping down hard on mouth  problems in several breeds.  Particularly those with the narrow lower jaws in extreme causing the lower canines to go up INSIDE the upper gum line and into the roof of the mouth, then the incisors are all over the place too. Maybe that was his reason?   Foreign judges are used to being much more strict, partially as the FCI has various DQ points for things like mouths in the breed standards, where as mostly ours is either only for weight, height, or missing a testicle.

And it is in some surprising breeds.  Saw it here last year in a young dog from the Utility Group that had been sold as a show prospect, beautiful in all other ways.  The owner refuses to show it much to the fury of the breeder who has actually said they want to use it as a stud when it is a bit older!!!  I do wonder how many there are as the breeder said it should be taken and have the mouth "fixed" then it could be shown.  They even suggested it could be taken to Poland as there is a good dentist there and the KC would never know.  And I was even more horrified when I found out the kennel lines.

The Swedish KC is clamping down hard on mouth  problems in several breeds.  Particularly those with the narrow lower jaws in extreme causing the lower canines to go up INSIDE the upper gum line and into the roof of the mouth, then the incisors are all over the place too
This is exactly what he stated his reason was for all six breeds he judged, and yes i can confirm that some in our breed have a very very slighty narrowing of the bottom jaw, but be a small breed it is hard getting away from it but in no ways was the whole of the exhibits affected by this, but i did admire him for speaking up but it is just a shame he didnt have the courage to stand by his convictions but again i don't know what the KC said last time he withheld.

> You have just contradicted yourself there.  All the teeth are in place by 12 months. 

What I meant is that a shallow scissor will go level or even slightly undershot due to age because of wear, not because of changes in the structure, though of course teeth can move because they loosen in the old dogs gums.

> but should there be a higher minimum age for a Ch to gain it's crown.

perhaps, it should be based on age of maturity is size bands?

If it were two years of age for a medium size breed like mine (I could live with that) even though I would be sitting on 5CC'swith my girl  (won between 11 and 23 1/2 months) and having to wait until after she had reared a litter, recovered condition (takes some time in a coated breed) and try to win the last CC when she goes back into the ring at over 3 years of age.

I would not like to see a restriction on young exhibits being awarded CC's as it takes long enough in the UK to win them on avearge taking around 3 years  of showing to make up a champion, especially in breeds with few CC opportunities and for bitches (as it is largely frowned on to show them in season or in whelp, and the recovery time after breeding).

I would be breeding from a non champion bitch of champion quality.  Do people really use a dog just because it's a champion or because it's a nice NEW dog???? especially in a breed like mine with a small UK gene pool where the choice of studs is limited.

> What I meant is that a shallow scissor will go level or even slightly undershot due to age because of wear,

OK.  I remember having a dog under me in the USA about 6 years ago.  I knew him as a puppy and junior as the then owner had decided to rehome him as he started with a level bite that went undershot at 18 months.  The breeder denied it was in the line.  Any how the dog was rehomed to another show home, this time a pro handler.  Low and behold the dog started winning big time at 2.5 yrs, and continued on to MBIS wins and the #1 in breed for 3 yrs.  Of course siring numerous offspring.  When I had the dog under me I looked in the mouth and it no longer was obviously undershot because they had FILED ITS LOWER incisors to the gum line!!!  So it looked like a level bite.  I did not place it.  Needless to say there are lots of dogs now in the ring by this one with level and undershot mouths, as far afield as Australia. 

Going back to withholding and the judging of puppies I do think there could be more guidance.

If you judge  strictly according to the rules (the standard and the dog on the day the only criteria used) and the best you can find in the sex happens to be a puppy in some breeds you have a quandary because you know that in this breed a puppy should not be, at under 12 months, a walking example of the standard.

So do you use your knowledge of the breed and assess the puppy as a puppy and therefore make allowance for the yet to be shed puppy coat and the uneven & unfinished conformation (as it should be) or do you stick to the rules and place a puppy that is un-typical because it fits the standard for the adult more closely - perhaps not too much a problem to all rounders but to a breed specialist who knows how a breed puppy grows it can cause a good deal of heart searching.

I have always found the judging of puppies the most difficult because you want to do as instructed, you do not want to upset a newcomer, you want to follow your experience of the  breeds young but you have to come back to the instructions. If you excuse the puppy coat do you also excuse the huge ears and the bum high - if you have a lovely puppy, as a puppy should be, and you are not happy with the adults present do you give the puppy best of sex and suggest to the handler they do not go into the adult group where you know they will sink without trace.

Would be interested in how others approach their judging of the puppy classes particularly the later maturing breeds. 

> perhaps, it should be based on age of maturity is size bands?

Good thought.  In our dreams :)

> always thought that by waiting until 4-5yrs that for a first litter it can lead to more complications at birth?

the main problem can be that fertility reduces or can be lost.

The constant assault on the female uterus with each season (the hormones are produced whether pregnant or not, those bitches not mated produce some of these hormones over a longer period than those who go on to whelp and rear pups) can cause various issues with the womb lining, cysts, and the ever present risk of Pyometra etc. 

Also the fact that bitches have long intervals between seasons can make timing litters harder.

I have bred first litters from just two year olds and the oldest first timer was just short of 4 years old

> If you judge  strictly according to the rules (the standard and the dog on the day the only criteria used) and the best you can find in the sex happens to be a puppy in some breeds you have a quandary because you know that in this breed a puppy should not be, at under 12 months, a walking example of the standard.
>
>

In Scandinavia where they grade the instructions are that young stock is assessed as how it should e based on age, but that in adult classes no allowance for age is to be given.

My gut would tell me the first is correct you judge the puppy as correct for it's age,a dn if it is more correct than the adults bearing in mind the age you would put it up. After all when putting up Veterans we make allowances for grey muzzles, loss of padding in the head etc.  Then I don't judge except in my own litters and choice of studs.

Judging for the whelping box is different to picking the best dog though.  You are arranging pairings and trying to match the pair to produce the best, not the same at all.  You could as a judge put up a dog one day and the next as a breeder use the dog you placed third as it suited your bitch/needs.

> Do people really use a dog just because it's a champion or because it's a nice NEW dog???? especially in a breed like mine with a small UK gene pool where the choice of studs is limited.

In many breeds yes people use a dog JUST because it is a champion regardless of how it got there or it's quality, compliance to breed standard, or health.  We have a problem now with just 4 dogs siring 80% of all litters in the past 5 yrs in a breed with an already small gene pool here.  Consequently we are seeing youngstock in the ring with serious breed faults like unaturally short and curly tails, weak hind limbs, and very bad mouths, plus the added extra of inherited disease.  Problem is for us there is a distinct "English" type here of a non-British breed and there are a few with an iron grasp on the lines who do not want to see change, be it all for the better, and loose their fame.  Therefore no matter how good the imports are they will not use them, or if they came under them in the ring put them up.  It is always telling though when we get foreign breed specialist judges, honest all rounders with a good eye and breed knowledge, or the "English" champions try abroad the results in the ring are more or less the complete reverse of the majority of our own "breed specialist" judges choices.  I sat with a foreign visitor to Crufts a couple of years ago who was from the country of origin of our breed and a world renowned expert.  Her comment was on the "English" lines of the breed was "they are not pure", she was disgusted at what some have done to it here.

To breed from a dog or bitch just because it is a champion is a novice approach!  There are many dogs who have produced outstanding offspring even though they themselves never saw a ring for one reason or another, ditto bitches.  There are many offspring by, or out of dogs / bitches who were good champions (or never even made ch) but outshadowed in the ring by their more successful MBIS winning littermates, but the less winning ones produced much better progeny than their famous siblings did.

harkback, I fully understand the worry of having a "in favour" stud particularly if that stud is imported and breeders have not waited to see what this stud is passing on to his progeny. But I do not see the connection between this worry and giving or withholding in the ring - you can only judge the dog you have in front of you not the offspring he may sire.

Making the correct choice of breeding dam and sire is very important but not the same subject, the judge chooses  the best they have offered on the day the breeder has a far more skilled and difficult task and they should be choosing from and matching the best genes available to them. I think judging and breeding are totally different skills and being good at one does not give automatic ability to perform the other.

In my breed there is a dog who had a scissor bite but when he got to four his head matured and he now has a level bite.  Level bites are accepted in other countries for the breed but not here.  I was shocked as never thought a mouth could change at such an age.

Think it would be unusual for the lower jaw to grow but the teeth often drop forward and that does change the bite although the jaw is correct - in other words the gums and underlying bone are a scissor bite but the teeth are undershot. Don't know if this rotation of teeth is common throughout all breeds or if it is more likely is some than others - always noticed my sister's Newfie's teeth dropped forward when they were relatively young, my own breed suffers from it too but a fair bit older.