Sorry I know this has been asked lots of times! But I have a springer x collie who pulls through excitement on walks on the way home he can walk quite nicely. I know training is the only way and he can walk perfectly at training club but his sheer excitement going for a walk takes over! I have tried stopping making him wait until he calms down but soon as we set off again he's off. Also I have 2 x Bullmastiffs, now I don't try to walk them altogether! They can walk nicely but I want something to know I have the control if needed. I have sitting in the cupboard 3 x Canny Collars which cost about £45 for them but if I'm honest (and I know I'm going to get told off) I don't like them :(  Has anyone any experience with more good headcollars that are gentle on the dog and don't rub their eyes? The Canny Collars seem to come off their nose quite easily. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I've always found this works well. 

http://www.dogmatic.org.uk/contents/en-uk/d3.html

I use the Dogmatic also on my GR who like yours is quite strong to begin with, I find that once she's had a nice run that I can walk her home on a normal collar and lead. This was the only make that hasn't moved about and rubbed near her eyes.

I use these headcollars http://www.dajan.co.uk/Halters.html on mine (size 2 for my Elkhounds) no fiddly buckles to break or catch the hair.  Work very well on mine, and if they get the nose band off whiel I stop to chat then I just pop it back on.

They did have some trouble with their on-line ordering software so you might want to ring them.

Ditto the other 2.. Dogmatic, the leather ones always :-)

i have tried the halti and the gentle leader on stan and we cant get on with them,he has this trick that if he walks backwards he can move his jaw,get it off and pull me !!!,i gave up in the end,trying to really really train him on walks(getting there now)although there is the odd time when i am pulled
jo

Dogmatic for me. Not that I need them now as the girlies are all OK on leads now but have found then great in the past.
Aileen

Jo,

Try the Dogmatic, a friend in Newfs gave me her old one and they are amazing

Suejaw,
The bit that goes around the jaw,thats the bit i have problems with,with the halti,when he is wearing it,unless he pulls it is loose around his jaw,so if he walks backwards he can slip the under his jaw bit into his mouth and then pull me !!!quite amusing for passers by watching me wrestle a huge bear type dog,i know they doint like it to start with,but with practice and plenty of incouragment i know he will be ok,but if it dont stay on,its not going to work.I used to use the mikki walkrite harness,(different to a normal harness,designed not to pull) but i was worried about throwing his legs out.I use a half check now,i think the sound with also voice commands help.He is generally very good,being a pup still,he is very lively to start off with,but relaxed at the end,i got him standing,sitting,waiting,down etc he is great in a crowd,its just on walks,if we dont see anyone then suddenly we do,he goes nuts!!most the time he will listen to me,sit and be rewarded,but i have been dragged into a open van with him before,he has pulled me over(when younger)and also,i have noticed due to his size,that most dogs dont like him,they go for him,so im reluctant to allow him to greet other dogs,which is frustrating for him,as all he wants is to play,
I may try one of these,thanks and sorry for jumping in on your thread
jo

Apart from the fact it looks like a torture device even though the description makes it sound acceptable,i also thought these were banned.Think i will press on with dogmatic styles and/training,if it was so bad that i needed one of these,i would have let my dog down and would return him to his breeder,thanks for the opinion though
jo

I'd say forget all the fancy collars and just use a basic 6' lead ... in the Ttouch balance leash set up. Have a look at these two links, they both show you how to arrange the lead and how to use it. It is very effective and it enables you to enjoy a walk whilst you're continuing the training.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/walking-balance-ttouch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYAT8AziXpo

Worth having a go as doesn't cost anything (that's if you've got 2 leads you can clip together) & doesn't inflict torture on your dog!

I too thought they were banned ... I feel a campaign coming on. Interesting to see these torture devices are being sold by a company called Luv My dog :-(

I use a walkeze harness on Ollie he is a large breed.  It is the best harness I have used and I have tried a couple and he hated head collars he refused to move out of the house if I put on on him.

www.dogtrainingharnesses.co.uk

I used to love the dogmatic halti but they have changed the design and it is far to heavy now. The rings are bigger and the straps are thicker no so nice for medium size dogs.

Trialist,i will have a go at that,worth a try,so thanks,
Peppe i dont need to worry about the size,stans a 13 month old newfoundland !
Lynn i do like the look of that harness,but as stan was bred for pulling as well as swimming,i have been told on many occasion by many different people not to use that type of harness,so unsure there.The mikiwalkrite was first and foremost a collor which had a thin band harness you attanched to it yourself under the front armpits,so when he pulls,itputs pressure on the pressure points and stops him. It did work when he was smaller,but now he is huge,im worried about joints etc and have not used it for a few months
Streetmutt,i do appologise again for jumping in on your thread
jo

Ollie is a breed bred for pulling carts originally and they now do it for fun a lot of the time.

It has 2 d rings either side of the chest strap you can walk with the lead on one or a double ended lead attached to both or use the coupler if you want a bit more length.  I have had no problems with Ollie he can sometimes have issues with some dogs when on a lead and this harness is brilliant it pulls across his chest and he has soon learnt that he can go nowhere and I have complete control being a big dog I feel very confident walking him in it well when he can walk he has a few health issues at the moment.

Thanks Lyn for the advice,may start looking at that as well!!! Poor stan wont know whats going on lol
jo x

I'm being really stupid.....
Which harness/collar is banned (or thought to be) please?

> The bit that goes around the jaw,thats the bit i have problems with,with the halti,when he is wearing it,unless he pulls it is loose around his jaw,so if he walks backwards he can slip the under his jaw bit into his mouth and then pull me !!!

Yep, Buster had the same problem with his halti. However, i still use it, but as I also have a lead attatched to his collar, I have now learnt the knack.
I found the trigger for him trying to reverse out of the halti was me putting too much pressure on it (he objects to being pulled by it), so I am carefull to only use it to gently steer his head (ie, steer his head away from slobbering a passer-bys legs!) or, if needed as 'emergency brakes' - for this I make sure I gently pull downwards which pulls his chin towards his chest.
I can't remember the last time he backed out of it, it di dcome off when he was playing with his rottie friend, but that wasn't his doing & it was easy to pull back over his nose - one definately needs a lead attatched to the collar in addition to the halti with a big lump like Stan or Buster :)

I use a chest harness on Buster, but it is only used for his 'free-time' on a ling-line, it gives me very little physical control over him, I can just about stop him if he pulls on it, but it takes approx 10ft to do so!

For the OP, I think any head-collar should be used as a training aid, a dog can still pull with a head-collar on (a large dog can, don't know about a small dog), the head-collar just makes it easier to physically restrain the dog if needed (again, I'm talking about a large dog). So for best results should be used in conjunction with training.

> one definately needs a lead attatched to the collar in addition to the halti with a big lump like Stan or Buster :-)
>
>

I don't think any head collar is safe to use on it's own without you having a lead attached to collar too, or a link between head-collar and collar.

I find it easiest to use a half check/slip collar with a head-collar as with the give in the half check it doesn't impede the function of the head-collar.

> I find it easiest to use a half check/slip collar with a head-collar as with the give in the half check it doesn't impede the function of the head-collar.

That's the set up I use - half check collar with a seperate lead on the halti.

> Which harness/collar is banned (or thought to be) please?

It was in response to a post which has been removed - someone was inappropriately suggesting a prong collar!

Why was it removed? a prong collar is simply a collar to stop pulling.

Adam

My dog also pulls and lunges at various things. We have weekly training but meanwhile, I'm now using a Dogmatic headcollar. I've tried umpteen other things - none of them worked.

Canny Collar - helps stop the lunging but the dog can still pull with this

Halti - repeatedly moved over my dog's eyes

Gentle Leader - same as Halti

Halti body harness - useless

Lupine body harness - useless

With the Dogmatic, make sure you have a good fit (if you email them they are very helpful). Then use a double ended lead - attach one end to the Dogmatic, the other to the dog's regular collar.

You will find it a real help!

While it's claimed not to work well on some dogs, I found a Mekuti harness was perfect for mine, who does lunge and pull at times. I bought it at a large dog event where it was fitted by the makers (it's said the fitting is sometimes crucial as to effectiveness).

With my ice-grips on, and using the Mekuti, I was able to walk my dog on the iciest roads in the recent bad weather without any fear of being pulled over or falling!

>It was in response to a post which has been removed - someone was inappropriately suggesting a prong collar!>

Ah thank you MsTemeraire.

I actually used a halti I think (or very similar) for my male Stafford.  Honestly not sure which brand it was. 
Similar in that part of it fit over his nose and was also attached to a collar which if he then pulled tightened ever so slightly, but then the lead was attached to the collar part still by way of two rings.  Rather than being attached to the muzzle part (which I think is the case with the halti?).

Along with that and voice commands, within a fortnight or so, the young man has responded fantastically.  Rarely pulls now, and believe me, he was like a steam train! lol

I had the same problem with pulling , I changed the walking pattern and took my labrador to more remote places where I could let him off the lead , this seemed to change his behavior and understanding of the difference between being on the lead and being off it he behaves much better on the lead now..

Thank you to everyone for replys, I have been looking at the Dogmatic headcollars, they sound really good. How is the sizing guide? It says size 6 for Bullmastiffs. What do people find best, padded nylon, synthetic or leather?

According to studies done on 4 different Haltie types & users reports they are probably the most uncomfortable, painful, stressful & dangerous piece of equipment of all time.

Below are links to users experience and below that studies carried out on 12 different types of halties.

Users experience
Face Bleed -
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=480657;hlm=and;hl=halti%20face%20bleed#480657

Haltie bleeding behind the eye.
carene 20.04.05 13:42
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=67379

Halti hell
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/37442.html

2. - Halti Pain Lab
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=61921

Haltie Nose Bleed
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/31788.html

Doom and Gloom pulling on halti
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/15434.html

Studies
1. Comparison of dogs' reactions to four different head collars
Abstract

Head collars are widely used in canine behavior modification programs. Owner compliance is crucial for success and depends in part on the dog's acceptance of the product. The responses of 12 dogs to four different head collars were compared in a crossover design over four 10 min sessions each spaced 2 weeks apart.  All dogs were naïve to head collars and were free of overt behavioral abnormalities. Dogs wore the collars only during testing sessions.

Observed behaviours were divided into two groups.
Group 1 included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head.

Group 2 included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground.
No statistical difference was observed between dogs' reactions to the head collar types; although, there was a trend toward increased reactions to the Snoot Loop and Response® collar during the first session.

Ref:
1. Comparison of dogs' reactions to four different head collars, Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 79, Issue 1, 20 September 2002, Pages 53-61
L. I. Haug,  B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb
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>According to studies done on 4 different Haltie types & users reports they are probably the most uncomfortable, painful, stressful & dangerous piece of equipment of all time.

Denis, this is so contrary to most people's experience that it makes one wonder what cruel misuse of the equipment they used to achieve their findings.

But as you're a committed fan of prong collars and shock collars it's not surprising you want to turn people away from more humane training methods.

thats interesting,trialist,!I found looping the lead round Jess.s chest stops her pulling,even all in one hand,but Il try the two hand version now!

Im going to get told off here,but my trainer has a prong collar for use on really uncontrollable dogs,i have seen it in use and the owners are then able to get on with training their dog,please believe me-the dogs didnt seem that bothered,as the collar ,isnt sharp or anything,its just uncomfortable for the dog to pull,a stronger version of the check chain.

Denis, it makes one wonder what cruel misuse of the equipment they used

Alan, I doubt the users of this forum who used them were being cruel when they caused the bleeding, i think the bleeding & cuts were the result of the inherant nature & physics of the halter types they used.
.

"uncomfortable" - why not just train the dog properly though?
I used to use choke chains years ago, I'd not do it now.
Prong collars can sometimes "work" but then if you put one around your own neck (not arm) and get someone to lead you about with it, and jerk on it a few times, you can see why :)
As with choke chains, they can cause problems with bad associations. One dog a friend of mine was working with was very reactive to other dogs, and once its prong collar was taken off, it was much improved and able to listen to training.

thats interesting,trialist,!I found looping the lead round Jess.s chest stops her pulling,even all in one hand,but Il try the two hand version now!

Thats good when it works, always worth a try, but, if it does not harnesses cause nothing but stress if they do not work as this one displays with the whining at the end of the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGGK6MnfU7o
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Head collars can be the difference between dogs being walked and not.

Many people are not strong enough or may be infirm or elderly and need the back up of a head-collar, even with a reasonably well trained dog there may be situations where a dog will react and could cause injury or be under less control than needed.

I liken it to 'Power-steering'.  I admit the dogs when we stop will stick their heads between peoples legs or attempt and sometimes succeed in getting them off, but whilst walking accept them happily enough for a good brisk comfortable walk at the full length of the 4 foot lead.  Without the head-collars on 4 out of 5 of them I would have to keep the leads very short in exciting or distracting situations as their combined weight is more than mine.

With head-collars I am able to walk all my dogs together so that they do not need to be walked in shifts and can benefit from maximum exercise opportunities.  It means I am able to keep a  new puppy bringing my numbers up to 6, as prior to using the head-collars I felt five was the most I could comfortably control on lead.

I can just about walk them all without head-collars in the normal day to day situation.

They are townie dogs and even the older sensible well behaved ones can pull around exciting things like Livestock when we stay at the Caravan on Exmoor.

Blimey! Actually, I'm not campaigning against anything, and I think if you re-read my post you will see that I clearly am not campaigning against anything for any type of breed of dog. So not quite sure where you're coming from, specially so long after the original posting.

What I did say in my post was the Ttouch balance leash method costs nothing! There, that's it, end of really :-)  The OP has already spent money on equipment that obviously hasn't worked, so why not try something that costs tiddly squat? Unless of course, you're wanting to sell yet more expensive equipment. Quite frankly from your posting I'm not quite sure what you're wanting, nor what you're wanting me to come back at with you with.

So, to make it quite clear to anyone ... I am not campaigning for any purchased equipment ... I like freebies!! 2 leads most people already have and a willingness to have a go at something new :-)  BTW non-aversive ... if not sure about Ttouch ... have a look at Sarah Fisher's site. Hope this clarifies.

Edited to add ... the trouble with responding to a post so long after the original poster posted is that a posting that poster (me) and the previous poster to me commented about (ie the 'torture' bit that you've obviously decided to hone in on) has now been removed! Quite rightly so ... so just for your information, the reference to 'torture' in my post & probably the person who posted before me was to a certain metal device, if I recall ... NOW REMOVED! More on the matter I am not going to go into ... education is my job but I'm off duty :-D

Hi Colliepam, did you read up on the Ttouch theory behind it? Interesting reading and I just think it's a super way of stopping pulling whilst training is on-going :-D

Ok This is to LuvMyDog ... only just had a look at your website. I see you sell prong collars. Now I understand where you're coming from sadly. I do not see the need for prong collars, why anyone use a prong collar I cannot imagine. Training is what I believe in ... I most definitely will not go further on this one, I just feel that as you are obviously a relative newcomer to Champdogs Forum that people looking at your comments directed at me should be quite clearly aware that you sell prong collars. :-D

education is my job but I'm off duty

There was nothing with what you suggested, if that works fine, if not people should not try it again with that particualr dog and move on to something safe & effective.
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- I do not see the need for prong collars, why anyone use a prong collar I cannot imagine

That's because, based what you wrote, prong collars & their use are outside your knowledge and beyond your experience, spreading illiteracy like disease is not educational, as you will see by the educational videos below.

Prong collars are the safest, least stress full and most effective anti pull device there is, they fit at the top of the neck above the trachea, not on the trachea like flat buckles.

The reason the work so well and fast is that the dog learns straight away that it causes itself discomfort if it pulls, some dogs (many) don't learn that with harnesses, anti pull harnesses if they work at all, work by squeezing the chest making it difficult & pain-full to breath but all to often they do not learn that it is the pulling on the harness which causes it.

The Labs owner below, like many others, had 7 months of the dog punishing her, decreasing the prospects of the Labs security of a lifelong home. She was rewarding with end of that in less than a 50 meter walk on the prong collar, although the dog would not have 'realized' it the dogs comfort was increased more in 2 mins than the preceding 7 months & greatly increased its daily exercise. As far as its mental health was concerned, within 3 days the whining had stopped completely, its relationship with its owner went back to being better than at anytime since it was a pup, its mental health was fully restored within that 3 days, family/household stress went within a day and all members of the family, whome it had ignored at its own convience for 7 months started enjoying it as they used to do, it once again became a wanted loved pet & not a chore, once more.

Of course it would put ineffective trainers & behaviourists out of work because the owner can do it themselves, they are very simple to use, so they try to frighten vulnerable pet owners about them, if they didn't they would be out of work.

These are educational videos which anyone can understand.

2. Street harness walking charade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OErXvIO-3s

3. first 5 mins on prong collar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlR384Pm7cY

3 days after first exposure on prong collar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlR384Pm7cY
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>The Labs owner below, like many others, had 7 months of the dog punishing her

Why not explain to everyone that the owner of the lab had 4 small children and had, by her own admission, only attended one training class with him when he was a small puppy, and hadn't had the time to go again, or do any other formal training? She also said she wasn't interested in training, just wanted a tool that would make him stop by whatever means. That she also refused offers of free assistance from qualified trainers, because it meant being shown up as not wanting to put in any effort?

> I'm seeing a lot of recommendations for headcollars that are aversive, cause injury, don't address training shortfalls, are regularly misused, inappropriate to the dogs needs, put handlers at risk and are in most cases a complete waste of money.

How on earth is a head-collar an  AVERSIVE???????

My dog sees his halti as 'walk time' it does not hurt him, frighten him or stop him doing anything - the fact he is wearing it does not stop him pulling, sorry for being dim, but what else other than fear pain & deterrant is there to the term 'aversive'???

The halti is great as a training aid and has helped me teach things. Ideally the best way for my dog to have learnt his doggy social skills would be free interaction with other dogs, but how stupid would it be to allow an an excitable 200lb English Mastiff, to freely interact with all the little dogs we meet, there would be a string of squashed dogs!

Inapropriate use of ANYTHING can cause a problem, but people using things wrongly should never be a reason to stop the production of the thing  they are mis-using. I have seen many people mis-use a collar & lead,  especially people with small dogs who will lift them off the floor - should there be a campaign to ban collars & leads - NO there should be education so people know how to use training aids properly.

She also said she wasn't interested in training, just wanted a tool that would make him stop by whatever means.

Why do these people bother to have dogs in the 1st place!!! It's beyond me

> Ok This is to LuvMyDog ... only just had a look at your website. I see you sell prong collars. Now I understand where you're coming from sadly. I do not see the need for prong collars, why anyone use a prong collar I cannot imagine. Training is what I believe in ... I most definitely will not go further on this one, I just feel that as you are obviously a relative newcomer to Champdogs Forum that people looking at your comments directed at me should be quite clearly aware that you sell prong collars

Oh my gosh, the penny drops. Yet another poster that is trying to make out some things are bad in order to sell thier own wares :( :( I feel I've wasted my time even bothering to aske them a question now!
Thanks for the heads-up Trialist :)

Ok This is to LuvMyDog ... only just had a look at your website. I see you sell prong collars. Now I understand where you're coming from sadly. I do not see the need for prong collars, why anyone use a prong collar I cannot imagine. Training is what I believe in ... I most definitely will not go further on this one, I just feel that as you are obviously a relative newcomer to Champdogs Forum that people looking at your comments directed at me should be quite clearly aware that you sell prong collars. 

This is clearly then why this post was brought up several months after the original posting! Agree with Mastifflover.

Well that's another one added to the IGNORE list - and also reported as user name is against TOS!

And actually is not the supply of prong collars illegal in this country now, as well as the use thereof????

How on earth is a head-collar an  AVERSIVE???????

All learned land mammal behaviour, including humans, is avoidance behaviour, it is learned as the result of experienced aversive stimuli, probably the first aversive in some humans are exposed to is a smack on the bum of a newborn who has not started breathing, the smack makes them cry which then triggers breathing. The next earliest aversive learning in humans is probaly the aversive of hunger pains, they cry at the hunger pain and get fed, therefor, when hungry they have learned that crying alerts the parrent who removes the hunger by feeding.

Below is a very simple & easy to understand video of the canine freedoms and safety it has learned as the result of exposure to aversives, your haltie is an aversive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu70O6npUv0

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OH look JG, it's a video from Denis - you spotted him in his new disguise very early on this time :-)

This is an important study for the OP or anyone else interested. Its a Swedish study in English of the physiological & behavioural damage caused by dogs pulling on a lead, just read or copy & paste as a v usefull ref.

http://historyecollars.webs.com/dogpullingonleash.htm

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