This is a weird one....

A friend phone the other evening.....her bitch had been in season in Sept - finished about the middle of Sept, apparently normal season, and they took their entire boy off to friends for the three weeks.    

They then found the two tied at the end of October, no sign of another season apparently,  but didn't take her for a jab as they thought it was just an 'odd happening'.

OK you guessed it - last week she produced a healthy litter of 8 pups.    The mating is fine on paper, but obviously has taken them on the hop - neither has been health tested yet.    The bitch is 4 years old.  

They obviously can test the boy any time, but when can they do the hips on the bitch after whelping - any ideas ?

Jo

ive none a bitch go about 8weeks after having pups and scores can back good but the higher sideof breed score, i was wondering could having the pups move hips alittle??? and her bitches score would of been better if she had waited longer???
the reason i say this is if her girls score is good but on ther higher side anyway maybe whelping could make them look higher then they really are ...just me thinking thats all xx

WL - I don't think so.  Good hips are usually 'good hips' (but the x rays need to be taken and the dog positioned by somebody experienced, as this can affect the reading).  The fact that she is already 4 years old is a consideration though, as she may have signs of damage from knocks etc, or arthritis coming in that she wouldn't have had at 1 year old.

My freinds boy that I bred was born in November 1998 was Hip scored (Hip Dysplasia 3/5 = 8, 8th August 2002) at almost 4 years of age.

His sister had almost the same score in Australia (where they use the same scheme), with almost identical score in same features except scored 1 point less, iwht 3/4 = 7.

Good hips will change very littel with age, poor hips will shwo more changes.

> Good hips are usually 'good hips'

Yes I agree,the hip joint is un affected by hormonal changes. If you think about it the hip is made of bone and no amount of hormones will make a good
set of hips look bad.When I had my girls hips x rayed I had heard all sorts of stories on how bitches in season or just out should wait weeks to be x rayed and I mentioned this to my vet who thought it was hilarious!!

Kind Regards

>If you think about it the hip is made of bone and no amount of hormones will make a good set of hips look bad. When I had my girls hips x rayed I had heard all sorts of stories on how bitches in season or just out should wait weeks to be x rayed and I mentioned this to my vet who thought it was hilarious!!

That's an unusual reaction, because it's a well-known fact that pregnancy hormones slacken the ligaments in humans, making the pelvic passage wider to allow a safe birth.

But what is the point of scoring after a litter of puppies have been conceived and whelped?  What are they going to do if any scores are bad, euthanise them? 

If the point if hip scoring is only to breed from stock with sound hips, and this litter has already been born, it is shutting the door after the horse has bolted to score now.

If you get a good score, it might help them to sell the litter.  But if they get any bad scores, the opposite.  And, either way, the pups exist now, and they need good homes.

I would score dad now, endorse the pups, wait till they have gone to new homes, then score mum and advise puppy buyers.

Jg thats what i ment you say it so much better :) thankyou ;)
i know good hips are just that pergnancy does alot to use so y not to an animal xx

But what is the point of scoring after a litter of puppies have been conceived and whelped?  What are they going to do if any scores are bad, euthanise them? 

For a start anyone wanting to do agility would know it might not be a good idea. The buyers, even if all pups are sold as endorsed pets, would know there was a possibility of future problems and could take extra caution. And the breeder of the bitch would know which would of course matter a lot to those working with the same lines.

The score isn't very likely to be known until after the pups have been sold.

I actually had this exact situation years ago. Had an accidental litter -crossbreeds as both parents different breeds. Neither parent hip scored. Did the dad ASAP, knew before the scores came back his hips looked terrible. Did the mother later on. Adviced all potential buyers -some turned away because of it, some decided to risk it. Dad eventually came back as 96, mum as 11. Two of the pups went for obedience and agility and they have been fine, but the owners have been able to take extra care. The rest went as pets. I ended up keeping two, they are now 9 years old, the dog is showing signs of HD (far less than the dad at same age though), the bitch is not. Both are neutered of course as crosses so I've not bothered scoring them.

The mother, when eventually mated to two normal scoring dogs of the right breed, had pups with scores ranging from 6 to 12.

Totally agree with JeanGenie, I had my last bitch done under sedation, I know a lot of you used to use this lady and this is exactly what we were told. I know my hip has never been right since I gave birth to my son and everything does soften up so the body expels the baby/puppy, imo.

i thought there where some thing about what i was saying lol ;) xx

I heard that about not hip scoring whilst in season etc, and hormones changing things.  LOL, my bitch that I had hip scored whilst in season came back as 0:0 hips!!! so it obviously didn't affect her in any (bad) way!!!  And if you look at the actual readings that make up the total score, many of them are to do with femoral head, acetebular edges etc, which won't be affected by changes to ligament structures anyway.

Good hips are good hips...

There can be a difference "hips scoring" when in season as opposed when a bitch has had a litter , i would definitly do them , for peace of mind and for the sake of the puppies and new owners.

> That's an unusual reaction, because it's a well-known fact that pregnancy hormones slacken the ligaments in humans, making the pelvic passage wider to allow a safe birth.

Whilst agreeing with the above statement,the fact still remains that hormones have no effect on the bone structure itself. If the actual bone formation of the hip joint is looked at hormones will have no bearing on its structure. Either the joint is good or it is bad,no amount of hormone will alter its form.

Kind Regards

I'm not so sure - the hip joints are held in position by ligaments.     In humans at least, if there is a difficult, maybe breech birth, I think the head of the femur can actually be pushed out of the socket.    How relevant this is to bitches, I'm not sure, but certainly ligament relaxation is one of the obvious signs of impending parturition.

I'm sure they do need to get the bitch scored for the peace of mind of the new puppy owners.   Most vets can see if the hips would have a reasonable score, even if they won't hazard a guess themselves.     My gut feeling is that in this case the score could be higher than it would normally be .     I think they may get her scored when the pups are about 6 weeks old or so - whether that is enough time for things to go back to normal, i don't know.

Still weird one about the mating, though!!

Jo

> I'm not so sure - the hip joints are held in position by ligaments.     In humans at least, if there is a difficult, maybe breech birth, I think the head of the femur can actually be pushed out of the socket

Not sure on that,it may or may not be possible. The hormonal changes that would give rise to the relaxation of ligaments would not alter the bone configuration. For the femoral head to be "pushed out" you would then be looking at trauma.Bone cannot alter its form just because a bitch is in season or in whelp.

Kind Regards

> What are they going to do if any scores are bad, euthanise them? 
>
>

No (unless the hips are horrendous in a  breed that has a high incidence of poor hips) but you could reassure the new owners that the hip history behind the pups is good, or if it isn't then this can be pointed out and the new owners will know there is more risk of the hips not being as good as they could be, and this may mean they look for a higher level of insurance etc.

These pups are more likely to find responsible homes if the tests are done even if late.

>the the fact still remains that hormones have no effect on the bone structure itself.

It could have an affect on one of the criteria 'Subluxation', which is how tightly the ball fits.

I agree it wont affect some of the other features.

So in theory, is there a specified amount of time after a season then for hip scoring?

I'd say it wouldn't hurt to aim for midway at the point when there are least hormonal disruptions.  There is rarely a hurry to get a bitches hips scored.

Statistically according to Malcolm Willis article I read a long time ago bitches do score slightly worse than males, so this may be due to hormones, or just the natural conformation difference between the sexes.

Re original post, why had a bitch not been scored by 4 years old, there is usually no hurry to get a bitch scored at a year, but most people will get it done by around two if they are thinking of breeding, and most would be trying to mate a bitch by 4 years too?

They had it in mind to have a litter at some stage, but were talked out of it by several people, including myself, for a few reasons, so didn't bother with scoring.   As they seem to have got it organised to send the boy to friends every time the bitch came on, I suppose that they felt there was no problem.....!

And then - whoops....!!

Jo