We have two large breed bitches which have whelped three weeks apart. The first bitch had nine puppies, 4 or which were born dead. After two days, 3 of the puppies started to look unwell. The vet said they had peritonitis and that nothing would save them. Gave them some antibiotics. Two have since died. One that looked really bad, pulled through and is now two weeks old and doing really well. We have taken the puppies from the bitch and take them in to her every four hours to feed. Fingers crossed and touching wood, they will make it through. We now have three puppies left from a litter of 9.

The second bitch delivered her first puppy without me there, this one was dead. She had a total of eight puppies, three of which, died at birth and one was only partly formed.  Of the four puppies left, two started to show symptoms of fading puppy syndrome. Another rushed visit to the vet who once again, supplied antibiotics and advised getting their temperatures up and to feed every hour but also to put back with the bitch.

We managed to get their temperatures back to normal and they were feeding quite well. I put them back with the bitch overnight and kept checking them.  Unfortuately, one was dead this morning. Two look quite strong but I still have concerns about the other one.

Please, does anyone know if this is a common occurence with large breed dogs or have we just been desperately unlucky.  We have done everything right with food and care etc.  I find it absolutely heartbreaking.

How long did you work on each puppy that was 'born dead'? 
And the first one was born without you there?  I don't leave my bitches unattended at all when they're due to whelp..........
What temperature is your whelping box/room?
Are you not sleeping with these puppies overnight?

With the puppies being so touch-and-go, I would NEVER leave them unattended even with their mum.  They wouldn't have the strenth to move out of her way for a start.  We had one weak puppy from birth and he needed constant supervision and regular feeding which meant me holding him on the teat almost constantly.  He is now almost 5 weeks and is fine. 

It would appear that you have a problem in your kennel/home/ population of dogs....not the breed or size of dog.

I wonder if the bitches have been vaccinated for Canine Herpes Virus or checked for Brucellosis  (known as "contagious abortion", caused by infection with the bacterium 'Brucella abortus').

I would most certainly not breed again until I had these tested for and eradicated if needed.

I stay with my bitches from 1 week before due date, and they don't get left unsupervised for at least 3 weeks.  More depending on the bitch, and how she is coping.  You just can't leave bitches to "get on with it" as some folk mistakenly believe.  You need to be with her throughout the night to ensure that no pups get stuck behind mum.  Most of us sleep with mum to ensure that we hear any squeaks as pups crawl off and get lost.  We certainly don't expect to get any sleep!  LOL

It is certainly not the norm to have 2 litters together, and is far too much for anyone to cope with.  Assuming that you are keeping a pup for yourself to show, there really is no need with a breed that has such large litters.

Like tooolz I would be looking at health issues, and brucellosis was one of the things that came to mind when I read your post.

hi very sorry for your loss, it very hard to deal with i know as its happened to me a couple of times mine are toy breeds. could be the canine herpes virus take your dead pup for an autopsy at your vets if thats possible, they can tell if it is herpes as the liver is speckled. worth a try... then if it is you can get the vaccine for the virus it does not cure the virus it just protects the unborn pups from it. karen..

what a shame that most posters are berating this lady. All she has done is asked for adviceregarding her two litters. I know that you may not agree with having two litters together and that is your perogative but please lets help rather than berate.
To the op I am so sorry for your loss, there may be a number of reasons for the loss of the puppies.I hope that the rest of the pups pull through.

Must say that I agree with Flora Dora. Sometimes I feel some people are too cirtical and it is very off putting for newcomers. We all have to start somewhere and its never too late to learn.x

Trouble is, should that learning come at the detriment of living creatures?

Not voiced in particular at the OP as I have no idea what is causing the pups deaths, or the depth of her experience,  but there is an indication of the pups being left alone with the bitch.

We all have to start somewhere and its never too late to learn.

Not with breeding hun, we're talking about lives, you don't play with life. Breeding should be learnt first, practiced second, often it is the other way around, pups die at point of whelping where those of us with the knowledge pre-learnt can revive them, pups get sat on by a bitch very often and die, pups go down in minutes, not hours, if not there to see first indications another un-needed loss.

I could personally have lost many pups, my knowledge and vigilance has stopped that from ever happening.

Pups often die because a breeder does not have the knowledge, it is the saddest thing to hear, a terrible time for the breeder, but worse for a wanted pup to lose it's life when it needn't have.

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To our OP, I don't know why your loss is so great, maybe it is due to points mentioned, maybe not and out of your control, but you must be devastated and I'm sorry for your loss. I hope that the other pups do pull through.

I actually feel that the posters arent berating th OP, they are giving advice from their own experience.

It does sound as if the OP is not very experienced...so maybe not the best idea to have 2 bitches whelp so close.

>so maybe not the best idea to have 2 bitches whelp so close

Especially not in a breed where people have been having to give away puppies in order to get them homes.

> I actually feel that the posters arent berating th OP

I agree. Nobody has berated the original poster in any way. I have seen this happen on here but the replies up to now have just been stating facts from their own experience or asking relevant questions. Berating is something completely different.

I think the OP has been given some sound information but perhaps more comment than she wanted or deserved.

The problem with asking (and expecting) people with an experience bank of hundreds of years of breeding dogs, to supply information, advice, support and care..you take the rough with the smooth.

We are not Wikipedia...we are humans!

Others have commented about possible causes, which can only be guessed at with the scant information provided:

Puppies cannot regulate their own body temperature and need constant warmth, they also need feeding at least two hourly at first.

If they chill they will die, if they chill they cannot feed/digest food.

So first what are the whelping facilities:

Temperature in the room, temperature in the box, what supplementary heating (heat pad/Lamp)

Do the bitches have an open box or have a cave like Den?

> One that looked really bad, pulled through and is now two weeks old and doing really well. We have taken the puppies from the bitch and take them in to her every four hours to feed.

Why are the pups away from the bitch?  Where you only feeding 4 hourly at the start?

Generally as has been said bitches and litters need constant supervision if one wishes to avoid unacceptable losses.  The bigger breeds can be especially clumsy, it's partly why bitches have litters so that there is a chance of some surviving despite this.

If left to themselves it is quite likely that about a third of any litter can be lost due to chilling, accident etc.

Conscientious breeders try to ensure all viable puppies have the best chance of survival.

Has a contagious infection been ruled out by your vet by having a PM done on the first pups?

As for breeding two litters close together, rarely a good idea in any breed that has average to large litters, but very occasionally there are good reasons fro doing so, and I have and know other good breeders who have had two litters close together, but mainly due to circumstances not something one would normally choose to do, and then only with a lot of experience, and it is absolutely knackering so to be avoided generally.

> what a shame that most posters are berating this lady

Unfair comment.  My reply was not in any way aimed at berating anyone.  However, the OP states quite clearly that they are doing everything right carewise.

We can see that everything is most definitely not being done right!  We have been told that bitches are left.

Any experienced breeder would have learned long ago that bitches are not left.  So one has to assume that this is most definitely not an experienced breeder, which is why my post explains why we stay with our girls.  There is much, much more advice that I could give, but without the OP coming back and giving us far more information on the rearing facilities, we are limited in the help we can give.

By explaining that most folk wouldn't have 2 litters close together, I should have pointed out that, due to recession, I know someone with my breed (average 2 pups) has a litter that she is unable to sell.  Original buyers backed out, and subsequent applicants have just not passed vetting.  As the OP would be keeping far more pups that didn't sell, the post was giving advice, not berating.

Any experienced breeder would have learned long ago that bitches are not left.

this should apply to all breeders. with my first litter i was there 24/7 for the first 3 weeks and slept beside her box and only left the room when someone could take over from me even for a toilet break. i wasnt experienced at that time but was a midwife and a nurse, had children of my own and had researched the matter thoroughly. Common sense should tell people how easily pups can die if left but sadly people dont always have any. i also feel most people who do not do any research are usually only in it for the money, very sad

i have been around my girl waiting for her safe arrival of this litter now if i hadnt been there id of lost 2 pups 1 of which i worked on for 1h before she was breathing well and then started to suck on her mum my girl sat ther watching me and knew i was doing the thing to help her baby live ,its thing like that ,that needs to be learnt before whelping and know how to revive if needed to, i know things can happen out of our control thats just sometimes the way thing go but at least knowning how to do your best before a litter comes imo is the only way to go ,im not getting at you hun im really not im just writeing this for others that think breeding a litter of pups is easy my god it isnt!! and its heart breaking, i wish you all the best with the pups you have left xxx

I am not personally saying anyone Jean is berating, just felt that when someone has a problem that perhaps we could give constructive advice instead of constructive criticism. I know that 2 litters isn't a great idea and I do not condone it but the op has a problem and perhaps we should try harder to give more help.

I need more information before I can give any accurate answers, hence my questions that haven't received a reply.
Others have tried to help in their own way, seeing that so many errors are being made.
If you want to try to help in your way - feel free!  Everyone's different and that's what posters are going to get when they post on forums.

Unfortunately, I do not have enough time to reply to all the posts to my request for help and advice,  I would like to thank all those that have taken the trouble to offer advice and support.
I have to say, some of the replies did upset me but not as much as the loss of the puppies.
I have bred several litters before but with a different breed and never had any problems at all. They were all large breed dogs, I have never lost one puppy before and I feel absolutely devastated.
Yes mistakes were obviously made but I can assure everyone that they will not happen ever again.
One of the bitches is my son's and the other is mine. Born at different addresses.
Heating, lighting and support were all correct.  My son was with his bitch when her first puppy arrived and still he had devastating losses.
Each puppy that was dead at birth was worked on for at least an hour.
The vet advised him to take the remaining puppies off the bitch and to feed a bottle every two hours and to put them on the bitch every two hours.
Yes I do sleep in with the puppies.
I intend to take on board all the advice given.
Many thanks to all those that understand how I feel and for their support.

i feel for you sometimes when we are worried we write it down but dont explne very well the full picture ive done too, so can only go on whats been wrote ,i hope the rest of them will be ok ((hugs)) xx

I would for my own peace of mind want a PM done to check for any obvious cause or illness. 

As these bitches were at different addresses did the bitches or the people involved have physical contact with each other, or been in contact with any sick animals.

Do you have cats, or had them near pregnant sheep.  Thinking Toxoplasmosis????

> pups die at point of whelping where those of us with the knowledge pre-learnt can revive them,

In my last litter I revived a seemingly dead pup only to have to have her PTS a week later.  I will never do it again.   I hadn't before as my girls always had big litters and I'm sticking to that.

I was taught that the reason some species have litters rather than individual babies is that Mother Nature (the bloodthirsty harridan) has calculated the acceptable (to Nature) losses.

I think the comments regarding berating this person are aimed at me.  My original post was edited as my comments were perhaps rather severe on hindsight but when I read the breed, 2 litters, novice breeder, my opinion was that this was a cash venture.  I should not have posted that as I have no knowledge of this person at all and I do apologise.
To explain my strong feelings on this, I help out a large breed rescue and the amount of these dogs which are being bred and placed in horrible situations atm is horrific.  Every tom, dick and harry is gettting this breed cos apparently you can make £1000 per pup(sooooo not true)(in these situations).  Watch the free sites carefully and you find them for sale for an ono price with no vetting at all.  It makes me so mad and sad that this is another majestic breed on it's way to ruin due to indiscriminate breeders(not that I mean theOP).
I am well aware that we all have to start somewhere but not to the detriment of these tiny lives.
So I do apologise and wish you all the best for your puppies and your bitches.