a friend of mine  bought a small breed puppy which has been diagnosed with a grade 3 murmur. The vet said it is where the blood leaved the heart if that makes sense.  Friend is devastated. She wanted to do agility with pup. She could take pup back for a refund but is already attached to pup. vet advised pup would need to be kept quiet and might need treatment later on. Does any one have any experience of a pup with a grade 3 murmur and how it developed. Can they improve as pup grows or will it get worse? what effect would a lot of exercise have on pup. pup is 12 weeks now. Doesn't seem ill at all and dashes around like any other pup.

> She wanted to do agility with pup.

Was the pup sold with this intention as she might be able to get some money back at least  as the dog is not 'fit for purpose'.
Also, some murmurs disappear. I seem to remember a thread about this recently so i am sure someone with knowledge will be along soon.

8 years ago a friend brought a pup with the same thing and she was offered money back by the breeder but she choose to keep the puppy.
The outlook was not good and he was predicted to live to be 3 years old if they were careful.
That dog grew and grew and competed in competition agility and obedience all over the country and won too. It was not until he was about 6 that he could not do it anymore and he was retired. But he still enjoys walks and everything a normal 8 year old does. So many times they have been told he isn't going to make it and so many times he has defied the odds and pulled through an illness.

So no one really knows how anything will affect them u have to take one day at a time. Maybe my friend has just been very lucky but who knows maybe your friend will be too.

>> She wanted to do agility with pup.
> Was the pup sold with this intention as she might be able to get some money back at least  as the dog is not 'fit for purpose'.

The breeder knew she wanted to do agility but it wasn't sold as an agility dog. To be fair the breeder has offered to take the puppy back for a full refund but my friend is already attached to the puppy. She is still trying to make her mind up whether she really wants to do this or whether to keep her to see how she progesses, that is why I would like to know if anyone has experience with a puppy with a heart murmur to see how bad it is likely to get as it grows up

> 8 years ago a friend brought a pup with the same thing and she was offered money back by the breeder but she choose to keep the puppy.
> The outlook was not good and he was predicted to live to be 3 years old if they were careful.
> That dog grew and grew and competed in competition agility and obedience all over the country and won too. It was not until he was about 6 that he could not do it anymore and he was retired. But he still enjoys walks and everything a normal 8 year old does. So many times they have been told he isn't going to make it and so many times he has defied the odds and pulled through an illness.
>
> So no one really knows how anything will affect them u have to take one day at a time. Maybe my friend has just been very lucky but who knows maybe your friend will be too.

that is a nice hopeful story. I wish we had a crystal ball so we could see how this pup will turn out.

It is common for pups to have, what are called, 'Flow Murmurs' ie turbulence within the heart caused by late development of the stuctures within the heart vessel itself. These often correct themselves with time ( often very little time). A pup seen by a vet at 8 weeks can have a murmur then but none at 10-12 weeks. The vet often doesnt attribute the murmur to any specific area of the heart.

This vet has said it is at the exit of the heart, which must mean leaving the Aorta and therefore  most likely a narrowing called Aortic Stenosis AS for short.

An expert opinion should be sought from a vet cardiologist if this doesnt resolve. In my experience AS tends to stay stable but is very likely at a level 3 to cause fainting during exercise.

If this murmur stays at this level or worsens, this pup is unlikley to tolerate agility.

By the way, whilst Prime Minister, Tony Blair had an op to help with Aortic Stenosis and returned almost immediately to work.

> A pup seen by a vet at 8 weeks can have a murmur then but none at 10-12 weeks. The vet often doesnt attribute the murmur to any specific area of the heart.

Pup is 12 weeks and still has murmur so I guess that is not a good sign

> An expert opinion should be sought from a vet cardiologist if this doesnt resolve.

yes vet has advised this but my friend is not keen to spend approx £300 which she has been quoted on a pup she might not end up keeping.

> In my experience AS tends to stay stable but is very likely at a level 3 to cause fainting during exercise.

That is a real worry. It does sound like friend would be better returning pup even though hard as she may end up with more hertbreak later. Toooolz, this pup is a cavalier, I asume from your avatar  this is what you have. Is this a common problem in the breed?

> Toooolz, this pup is a cavalier, I asume from your avatar  this is what you have. Is this a common problem in the breed?

MVD Mitral Valve disease ( or degeneration) is the scourge of the breed with up to 50% of all Cavaliers having a murmur by 5 years ( statistics remember, the entire population not excluding those who breed for hearts and dont share these figures)  .... but this is a very specific murmur...a degeneration of the Mitral valve which is situated between the upper and lower chambers of the heart.... No way near the exit of the heart - the ascending aorta.

This really does need checking before the owner returns the pup.
It is simple for a good vet to differentiate between an exit noise - AS and a mid chamber noise - MV.

Highly highly unlikely to be MVD in such a young dog and this leads me to believe that it is too simplistic to say " Oh cavalier -must be an
un-alterable murmur".

I would take this further or, if the owners wants, let the breeder take on this problem.