Hi
l have just been informed that 2 of thepuppies which my bitch had, have mated together   l will try to be as detailed as l can  the 2 puppies are 8 months old  the male went to be castrated on 3rd november the bitch pup  came in to season the same day   a few days later the bitch stood for the dog and tied for about a hour  it happened a few days later and several times each day  the  owners asked vet who said she could not get pregnant so they left them to it.  it is now 4 weeks laters and the  bitch is of her food and a little quite  my questions are could she be pregnant if so what are the effects of brother and sister having a litter and also  because she is only 8 months  how will it effect her please any advice would be great so l can pass it on to the family thanks

What a nightmare!

Yes, the bitch could be pregnant because castration doesn't cause instant sterility. Yes, she's far too young to have a litter, and certainly not a litter sired by her brother. She should be taken to the vet for a course of Alizin injections to terminate any pregnancy.

Also the owners were mad to allow them to 'leave them to it'; they're incredibly lucky that neither has suffered injury.

hi thanks for your reply i totally agree with you up to what stage can bith have this injection also if they want to keep going with litter will they be deformed just want to get all information so they can make the disssion

> Also the owners were mad to allow them to 'leave them to it'

I have to say that my perspective (as an Owner) is that no one person can be blamed or shamed here, sadly it's a classic example of an 'error chain' and every chain has it's links to which Owner, Vet and Breeder are invloved!
   I would expect these questions: "could she be pregnant if so what are the effects of brother and sister having a litter" to have been able to have been answered in the first place by the person that entered into a breeding programme to produce my dogs! and not least if I was proposing to own two of differing sexes from that Breeder!!?
   Jloub, sorry it's not what you want to hear I'm sure and I don't mean my comments as any kind of personal attack on you but I think it is only fair for Owners to expect that all considerations for breeding have been met by the person conducting it and that they be advised accordingly particularly in this respect. It's certainly a bigger job than most realise.

Hope the young Bitch gets sorted all ok and my best wishes for that.
  

>up to what stage can bith have this injection

Up to 45 days after mating

>also if they want to keep going with litter will they be deformed

It's possible, but that's not the only consideration. Any recessive genes carried by the parents (and being siblings this is very likely) will be doubled up and some of the puppies will suffer from the associated conditions. As the breeder of this pair you will be well aware (having done your research prior to the mating which produced them) of the genes of the ancestors and so will have a fair idea of what could affect these puppies.

Plus, of course, they cannot be registered, and the public are rightly very cautious about buying such closely inbred puppies - they will be hard to sell.

Can the injection be given at 4 wks?  I don't know if that's too late.  I'd struggle ethically with that, even if it were allowed.

Personally, I'd never have sent 2 pups to one home...

And what a totally stupid vet to say that it was impossible she could be pregnant - you'd think he'd have given her the jab then, just to be sure.

I'd struggle ethically with that

Rabid, I would struggle more ethically at an 8 month old bitch carrying and giving birth to puppies. Anything that can be done to prevent this pregnancy would for me be the best thing to do.

Cannot believe that the owners allowed this to happen!!!!

Perhaps the most sensible thing would be for the vet to spay her now? An owner who allows this to happen in the first place is perhaps best off not being in charge of an entire bitch ...

M.

>Can the injection be given at 4 wks?  I don't know if that's too late.  I'd struggle ethically with that, even if it were allowed.<br />

Yes the injection can be given at 4 weeks but it will cause the bitch to abort the pups and she will expell them. they will not be neatly reabsorbed. There is a risk of infection for the bitch. Also incomplete termination of the pregnancy which could still lead to some puppys being born. Possibly deformed.
The other option is spaying which would involve euthanising the puppies. This is a much more difficult operation than a normal spay due to the increased blood supply to the uterus. Some vets do not like to do it for ethical reasons.

There are no easy choices here. Even having the litter and culling some of the puppies (so the mum doesn't have too many to raise and less to find homes for) would be difficult because very few vets will do this nowadays

Given all that, if this happened to me (which it wouldn't but hey), I'd let her have the litter.  And hope it was a small one.

It could also be a false pregnancy, so you can keep hoping that she's not pregnant...

The owners did allow MULTIPLE ties after having noticed the first one - they made their bed, now they lie on it...

they made their bed, now they lie on it...
And as always, it's the bitch that will suffer. :(

Much as I don't spay unless for medical reasons, in this instance, I would definitely suggest that the bitch is spayed immediately as the owners clearly cannot take care of her entire. :( :(

l want to have another litter as have allready got people linned up for pups who missed out last time
jloubs, you might want to rethink this? :(

I agree that this bitch should be spayed eventually but spaying when pregnant is not an easy op and is risky for the mum. The safest option is to let her have the litter.

>I agree that this bitch should be spayed eventually

Absolutely, as having castrated the male will not stop him mating her if so inclined, and as someone else said unsupervised matings can cause injury.

M.

Thanks for all your replys l have been told that they did not mate until about 14 days after the castration took place  so l think they are going to watch and wait westcoast ]not sure what you mean by your post

westcoast ]not sure what you mean by your post
Are you sure that any of the homes that were 'unlucky' to not have a pup from your last litter are going to be better dog owners than this family?  Letting two pups go together is rarely a good idea and these people seem to have little idea about how to look after their pets............. :( :(
It sounds as though you may need to be more selective about where to home your puppies.
And is having a waiting list a good enough reason for producing more puppies if this is the quality of home that's waiting?

I would be furious if someone let one of my puppies get mated at that age... :( :(

>l have been told that they did not mate until about 14 days after the castration took place 

There can still be sperm lingering in the tubes a month after castration, so they shouldn't be complacent. I suggest they get her scanned.

I agree, you as the breeder should have been aware of the problems of selling 2 different sex puppies, and should have made the owners aware. The vet quite frankly is guilty of near criminal ignorance, to advise owners that a just-castrated dog could do no harm and to 'let them get on with it', and should be disciplined and sent back to vet school in my opinion! I think it sounds the best option to get the bitch castrated, she is far too young to be carrying puppies, at 8 months she is only a baby herself, poor thing. And I'm afraid I would also politely suggest to the OP that she reads The Book of the Bitch and acquires a lot more basic dog breeding knowledge before considering another litter herself.

A lot of lessons to be learned here.
1. Do not sell two puppies to the same home unless there are exceptional circumstances eg. the dogs are working dogs like police dogs and will have different handlers or are going to an extremely experienced home.
2. Do not breed just to sell. Breeding should be done for a genuine reason -having waiting buyers is not a reason.
3. Do not breed unless you are knowledgeable enough to be able to deal with puppy buyers' problems -problems that may keep coming for the next 15 years. Research everything first, learn and learn more. I'm surprised a vet would say a dog would not be fertile just 14 days after castration -but I'm even more surprised a breeder would not know the dog can still be fertile. Good breeders that have done their research also know about genetics and what problems close inbreeding can bring out, and will know what recessive genes there are in their lines so will know what can appear from such a close mating.

There is no perfect solution here. Personally I'd go for the Alizin as the bitch is on the young side to be spayed. It will be unpleasant but a lesson learned -the poor bitch will suffer the most. Then I'd urge the owners to get the bitch spayed when a bit older. I'd absolutely not let the puppies be born, for the sake of the bitch, and also due to the fact, as JG pointed out, they will never sell. There are puppies at the moment sired by top show dogs, with all health testing in place for the parents, KC registered, that extremely good breeders cannot sell even for a reduced price. It's tough times at the moment and your average pet buyer would never dream of buying a puppy from such a close mating.

Unfortunately with the hope that some pups may sell and that some money could be made they may just decide to omit the fact that it was a brother/sister mating.  Sometimes in these times of financial crisis, pound signs override common sense.

Poor girl :( My own pup is 8 months old and having her first season, she is still very much a pup herself, I cant imagine her becoming a mum whilst she is still not full size and mature.

I'm not going to comment on the ethical or moral situations involved as the whole scenario has put me off eating my Doritos!!!!

But what I will say is that when I was Vet Nursing a male ended up siring a litter 7 weeks after his castration so it is a real possibilty that this poor girl could be pregnant. The operation was done correctly as he was tested a few months later and was clear but must have had a store in his tubes for a while afterwards.

I would be furious if someone let one of my puppies get mated at that age...

I don't think furious would be a strong enough word for me, I just wouldn't have allowed two pups to go to anyone without years of experience and knowledge they would have to practically be Gods in the dog world to get the whiff of a yes, and to allow the dogs to tie, feel like sobbing I really do.

I can't tell you how upset I am that this pup may be in whelp, it's like a 10 year old child being pregnant.

All I can say is termination! No way on earth would I let it continue. jloubs it's not your pups owners bed, now they can lie in it, it's your pup that is going to be risking her life in perhaps going through with whelping and a litter with people who have no knowledge, do you really feel that your pup is safe in their hands, with all the things that could go wrong during and after whelping?

Best thing for a bitch in the hands of incompetents is to terminate.

Quote jloubs: "l have been told that they did not mate until about 14 days after the castration took place  so l think they are going to watch and wait"

Please try to persuade them to do the responsible thing and get the mismate jab for this poor puppy. It is very likely that she is in whelp after multiple matings - it is common knowledge that a male still has sperm for quite some time after castration or sterlisation. This poor puppy is far too young to be expected to produce a litter and these people don't sound like they would be exactly ideal to raise a litter of puppies! And, as has already been stated, puppy purchasers will be unlikely to want to buy unregistered puppies from siblings that cannot have been health tested yet. In all, it's a recipe for disaster that should be stopped NOW. There is no time to watch and wait. At the very least, they should take her to be scanned and then have the jab after she's proved to be in whelp. But my fear with that course of action is that they would go all fluffy and say that they couldn't bare to have the jab after seeing shapes on a screen :(

> I would struggle more ethically at an 8 month old bitch carrying and giving birth to puppies

100% in agreement with this statement.  I have an 11 month old bitch just coming towards the end of her first season.  This is a breed that has reached adult size by this age.

But she is still a puppy in her ways, and does not have the maturity for pups.  I own entire dogs, and it has been my responsibility to ensure that we had no "accidents."

I feel so angry that a poor 8 month old bitch is the one to suffer here.

Carrington has summed up exactly what I would want to say. Please do not let this continue, how would they feel if they lost their bitch. How can anyone expect a baby to cope with having babies???????

Maybe this will be a lesson to people who want to buy or sell two pups together.

Please let us know what happens, I hope that this puppy is allowed to carry on being a puppy and does not have to cope with being a mother.   

It sounds like Helenzdogs has medical knowledge and is saying:

>I agree that this bitch should be spayed eventually but spaying when pregnant is not an easy op and is risky for the mum. The safest option is to let her have the litter.

Personally, I would consult a vet - possibly NOT the same vet who has created the mess in the first place, but a recommended vet (!) - and get some veterinary advice about what is likely to be the safest option for "mum".  If it turns out that it is safer to let her have the litter, then personally, I think that is the only way forwards.

I think there is a lot of humanising going on here, what with the notion of a dog losing its 'puppyhood' and analogies to teenage girls.  But, if you're going to make that analogy - then plenty teenage girls successfully have babies with no physical ill effects.  Most of the psychological ill effects are then due to being responsible for said baby for 18 yrs of its life - a dam is only 'responsible' for her puppies for 8 wks.  Really, I don't think you can compare the two.

>It will cause the bitch to abort the pups and she will expell them. they will not be neatly reabsorbed. There is a risk of infection for the bitch. Also incomplete termination of the pregnancy which could still lead to some puppys being born. Possibly deformed.  The other option is spaying which would involve euthanising the puppies. This is a much more difficult operation than a normal spay due to the increased blood supply to the uterus.

Of course it's not ideal for the litter to happen, but please think about the trauma - physical and psychological - which would result from an abortion at this late stage.

Personally, I would consult a vet - possibly NOT the same vet who has created the mess in the first place, but a recommended vet (!) - and get some veterinary advice about what is likely to be the safest option for "mum".

Alizin is far safer than the mismate injections of old. I used it on one of my bitches when she broke a door down and got mated by her own son, she had no problems whatsoever and indeed had a healthy litter after a planned mating at her next season.

>Alizin is far safer than the mismate injections of old. I used it on one of my bitches when she broke a door down and got mated by her own son, she had no problems whatsoever and indeed had a healthy litter after a planned mating at her next season.

I am presuming you used the Alizin injection as soon as the mating took place? So any pregnancy had not got established? Using it at a much later stage of pregnancy carries much greater risks for the mum and is less effective. A close friend of mine went through this last year with a bitch who got mated while she was in hospital and her daughter was looking after the dogs. She didn't realise the bitch was pregnant until about nearly weeks.
Her vet advised not to do the Alizin injection unless there was a pressing reason as it would possibly not work as effectively at the late stage. It can cause incomplete termination of the pregnancy, had a high risk of infection and the bitch would have to go through a form of labour to expel the pups.

>I think there is a lot of humanising going on here, what with the notion of a dog losing its 'puppyhood' and analogies to teenage girls.

Exactly. Lets also not forget that until "That Programme" a mother/Son, Father/Daughter and Brother/ Sister mating was considered acceptable when used carefully in a breeding programme. I beleive a lot of the reason people have now don't like these close matings is because we humanise dogs too much and words like incest get bandied about. there is not the same objection to using these matings in other species. Dogs do not suffer the psychological traumas that humans suffer with close matings and in fact, as Marianne's dogs show will quite happily mate any of their relatives.

Whilst is does carry the risk of doubling up on the faults and less desirable traits it also doubles up on the good traits which is why close matings have been used in the past. A degree of knowledge is desirable when planning such a mating but an accidental mating this close will not automatically lead to a whole litter of horribly deformed puppies

> these people don't sound like they would be exactly ideal to raise a litter of puppies!

I think people are being uneccesarily hard on both the owners and Jloubs.
Whilst it is not always a good idea to sell 2 puppies together, it can work out fine.
These people had 2 puppies, then got the male castrated at a suitable time presumably to ensure that there were no accidental puppies. Then when the bitch came in season and got mated they consulted with an expert as to what the risk might be of pregnancy. In my view the one who needs shooting in all this is the vet who advised that there was no risk of pregnancy and to let the dogs carry on!

> In my view the one who needs shooting in all this is the vet who advised that there was no risk of pregnancy and to let the dogs carry on!

couldn't agree more

Helensdogz, what good posts :)

Hi thanks for all your coments all very intresting  we have spoken to a new vet today and he thinks it is possiblly a phantom pregnancy but is going to scan her any way l will let you all know

> I think people are being uneccesarily hard on both the owners and Jloubs.

Whilst it is not always a good idea to sell 2 puppies together, it can work out fine.
These people had 2 puppies, then got the male castrated at a suitable time presumably to ensure that there were no accidental puppies. Then when the bitch came in season and got mated they consulted with an expert as to what the risk might be of pregnancy. In my view the one who needs shooting in all this is the vet who advised that there was no risk of pregnancy and to let the dogs carry on! .

> it happened a few days later and several times each day  the  owners asked vet who said she could not get pregnant so they left them to it

Whilst I agree with you to a certain extent - why on earth did they just leave the to it?  Even if they thought there would be no risk of pregnancy, there was risk of injury.

I personally wouldn't sell two pups of different sexes to people who obviously don't know how to look after them in season, actually I wouldn't sell two pups together anyway, but surely knowing this, they should have been extra extra careful and the breeder should have warned them of being extra extra careful.

> we have spoken to a new vet today and he thinks it is possiblly a phantom pregnancy but is going to scan her any way

It is possibly a phantom but it also possibly real !
if they want to continue with a possible  pregnancy that is up to them, if they don't they need to get the injection .
How many people on here would trust a scan if the owners definately don't want the pups ?

A scan can only prove pregnancy if the scanner actually sees pups, how many times have pups been missed by a scan? Loads of times.

I have refused to sell a pup to someone as they wanted the opposite sex, but the 2 would have been too closely related. If they had wanted the same sex I would have had no problems. There would have been 3 years between the dogs but I still wouldn't do it.

A dog has been proved to ahve sired a litter many months after being castrated, so it is very likely she coudl be pregnant.

Also bitches can absorb puppies up to 40 days after mating so the injection may well cause this as opposed to abortion, but both are preferable to her giving birth, adn the expereince will certainbly be no worse for the bitch than whelping a full term litter, though perhaps unpleasant for the owners.

The bitch has reached the stage where a scan is likely to confirm if she is pregnant.

Hi just to let you all know it was confirmed she is not pregnant a scan was done ther are no puppies thanks for all your input 

That's a relief.