Hi Everyone,

I wormed my current litter yesterday with drontal puppy worming liquid (not adverstising admin all pups spoken for). They are 4 weeks old now, so this is their second lot of wormer. I was horrified to see later that day that about 3 of the pups had these horrid long worms in their poo??? they looked very similar to those thin white noodles you can get (cant think of the name off the top of my head) anyway I was as you can imagine totally Grossed out. I have never in all the 30 years I have had dogs, had a dog or litter with worms. They were dead and there seemed to only be one long worm in each poo.  The pups are very well and healthy and eating ok and do not seem unwell because of it.

The mother has been wormed regularly all her life with Milbemax, so I dont really understand why these pups had them? I was so horrified that I gave them all a little more drontal this morning just in case there was any more left indside them Yuk! everyone's poo's this morning seem normal I am hoping that they have all come out.

I would be interested to hear any ones elses experiences, thoughts etc..

Thanks
x

>they looked very similar to those thin white noodles you can get (cant think of the name off the top of my head)

Vermicelli - it's Italian for "little worms". Well named, eh? :-D

Was your bitch wormed (with Panacur - I think that's the only product that is licenced for use during pregnancy) during her pregnancy? If not then the pregnancy hormaones will have activated the wormes that were encysted in her muscle tissue (that's part of the normal life-cycle of the roundworm) and infested her puppies in the womb and during lactation. They'll need another worming before they leave - and of course you're worming the bitch at the same time as the puppies, aren't you?

Hi Jeangenie,

My bitch was wormed with Milbemax when she came into season in Sept ( if I am not mistaken this wormer is given every 3 months). so she hasnt been wormed since having the pups, she is due again this month. Although as you mention Pancur is the only wormer that can be given to pregnant and lactating bitches so I will probably wait until she has stopped feeding them completly before I worm her again. The pups are on Drontal puppy worming liquid its given at 2, 4, 6 and 8 weeks and so on ..I have never used Pancur I have always been put off by what people have said about it on CD's, it seems puppies can get upset tummies etc..with it so have always stuck to Drontal as it is more gentle on the pups and I have never had any problems with it, plus its easy to administer. Today the pups poo's seem normal no more horrid worms so I am hoping that was all of them? I know I am going to be examining puppy poo for the next few weeks now just to make sure though ):

Thanks
x

The bitch must be wormed at the same time as the pups, because she'll be infested and they'll be reinfecting each other.

>the pups poo's seem normal no more horrid worms so I am hoping that was all of them?

No, it won't be, if the bitch wasn't wormed at the same time.

Milbemax is a good wormer, but as you know it's not a preventative; giving the dose will clear out any worms from the gut, but it doesn't affect the encysted worms, and the dog can reinfect itself within a week, so she could have ingested worm eggs before mating or during pregnancy, thus guaranteeing that the pups were born with worms.

And I was wrong; the datasheet says clearly "Milbemax can be used in pregnant and lactating bitches and in breeding animals.

So worm her straight away. However as you've wormed the puppies with Drontal it would probably be better to worm her with a Drontal tablet as well; Drontal can be given to lactating animals.

Hi Moomins

I may get shot down here for what I'm about to say, but here I go. I don't see the problem, worms are unpleasant, yes, but not uncommon even in well wormed and fit clean healthy dogs. In my summer litter I had a couple of pups with worms (dead, only 2 or 3 worms in each poo, so not a 'heavy' worm burden) following the 4-week Drontal worming. I have owned Mum from a pup, she has been regularly wormed (as a pup and through her life with me) and she was wormed at her season, during pregnancy, etc, etc. Everything I did was correct, my levels of hygiene are excellent, I cannot be faulted (so please, don't anyone try). Worms are a fact of life. Whilst I have no doubt there are tons of people who believe their fabulously clean dogs don't have worms, odds are there are worms eggs passed that are not even noticeable. My dogs are out and about in fields. Whilst I try to stop them eating the many and varied delights we encounter on our walks, I can't stop every consumption :-( With sheep, badgers, foxes, etc, etc there is a veritable delight on every outing! One of my boys is currently proudly showing off his eau d'badger around his neck!!

The life cycle of a worm is truly amazing ... it's essential reading, but not bed time reading. The Drontal has done it's job, if there are going to be worms then 4-weeks is about right. As standard I would also worm Mum at this stage. I wouldn't be giving additional wormer though, it's done it's job - the worms are dead, more wormer wont help, and you don't want to interfere too much with the gut system. Just carry on with the worming programme as you would. I doubt you'll see any at the next worming. :-)

It's when your dog is passing masses of worms that are all alive and wriggling, that's when you need to worry - something I've seen in many rescue litters :-(  :-(

Thanks everyone for your comments, you were spot on with your comments Trailist. I just gave my vet a quick call to double check it was ok to worm mum as I have some Drontal plus tablets in the dog cupboard. He told me that as long as the pups are gaining weight, healthy and the worms were dead which they were, to just continue with the normal worming regime that I would have done.

He said that you cannot give Drontal to a lactating bitch apparently? he said the drontal puppy liquid has done it job, as long as I stick to the recomended dosage as and when the pups are supposed to have it then there is no need to worm mum at this stage.

He wasnt concered at all and said its not uncommon once you start worming for puppies of 4 weeks of age to have worms?

He said by all means worm mum once she has finished feeding the pups. I even looked at her poo today nothing? I havent seen any more worms in the pups poo since yesterday evening so I am guessing the Drontal killed them all?
Thanks everyone 

no pups and mum should be done at same time! my mum-in-law had a vet that said this and i was gob smaked! xx

I've always used Panacur (after a really bad reaction in my first dog to Drontal)  and mum and pups - and any other dogs, always wormed at the same times, never seen a worm from any of the dogs or pups ;)

Pleased you feel happier about your 'experience' now! :-) You wont get any more worms, am sure of it, they'll all be gonners.

>He said that you cannot give Drontal to a lactating bitch apparently?

You need to tell him to read the datasheet for Drontal! It says (scroll down to the bottom) "The product may be used during lactation.


Pups and mum should definitely be wormed at the same time.

Hi Jeangenie

I Just looked at the link you posted your right it does say it can be used during lactation doesnt it? why would my vet say it shouldnt I wonder perhaps he is getting his wormers mixed up? Well, if the manfacturer says its ok then I think I am going to give mum the drontal plus tonight, as I just spotted one more worm in one of the pups poo's just now, dead again but all day there's been nothing.. Argh!!!

Mums just fed them so I will give her the drontal now so it can work through her system during the night..hopefully that will cover all bases and I wont see any more of these horrid little blighters..

Thank you once again everyone...I will know who to listen to next time you guys and not my vet!!! 

xx

As Trialist said earlier, worms are a fact of life.... yet it's amazing how secretive they can be. I have lived with dogs and/or cats for most of my life, yet I have so rarely ever seen worms in all that time.

I was reminded of how elusive they can be just a couple of months ago.... when I spotted a group of immature tapeworms in my dog's poo. They honestly were NOT there beforehand - and I should know, I pick up his every offering!!! and as you do, you always have a look at it, don't you?

The usual story is you notice broken off tapeworm segments like "grains of rice" as they always say. Yes I remember seeing these plenty of times in my childhood when we had a free-ranging, vermin efficient cat - but I'd seen nothing like that this time.

So these immature tapeworms in his poo looked like a few strips of the tape-style dental floss and were moving slightly. Time to be completely disgusted. But as luck should have it I had some Panacur on hand.... oddly enough, I always have some 'just in case' and well..... here was the case! Worse was to follow, as the day after there was the mother of all tapeworms expelled, I don't want to go into details but I have not been able to look at any form of ribbon pasta since.... eek! (No spag bol or tagliatelle). It must have been over a foot long, god knows how long it had been inside my dog, but again without any of the usual symptoms at all so I had no idea. Perhaps it was a different species he had picked up, to the usual ones - well who cares, it was gross and foul!!!!

We now live in a rural area, so I have seriously upped up my worming protocol now... and I am also not forgetting to worm my cat at the same time (very important!) ..... and even more essential, since they are vectors of tapeworms, stepped up my flea protection as well.

My apologies to anyone who has been put off their dinner, but in over 40 years of living with animals, it just shows there is always something new to see & learn!

I remember the first time I saw a looooooooong tapeworm. It was coming out of a rear end of a lamb at the time, about 18" of it  :-O I too am still unable to eat a bowl of tagliatelle pasta!

>I too am still unable to eat a bowl of tagliatelle pasta!

Penne, fusilli and conchiglie only here...lol
My mother says they don't taste the same as spaghetti and can't understand why I have banned it.

PS: Re Panacur.... now I might be wrong... but I think one of the reasons it is such a gentle wormer is it doesn't actually kill the worms.... but stops them latching on and clears them out...? (Which is why the Mother was still moving a bit - urrrrgh!!!!). Willing and very happy to be contradicted here, bring it on!

If you worm every 3 months, whether or not you see anything in poo, even if your dog has ingested worms and has them developing, you will be killing them off before they have got to the point of being zoonotic (risk of people getting them).  By the time you see anything coming out in poo, things have been cooking up inside for a while!  That's why it's best not to wait till you see something but worm every 3 months as advised by the worming manufacturers.  Especially if you have a dog which eats any sort of poo or dead animals!! 

I don't like using unnecessary products on my dogs and I go easy on the flea and tick treatment - unless I'm travelling outside our area in the summer months - but worming I do every 3 months (with Drontal +). 

I did try the new Plerion tablets which are supposed to be tasty for the dog - but my fussy non-tablet eating dog sussed it straight away, so it's back to force-fed Drontal+ for now!

I'd be interested to know which wormers breeders use with puppies.  The breeder of my older dog used Panacur paste (in the tubes) with the litter.  I'm not sure what the bitch was wormed with during pregnancy.  As we're planning this litter next year, I feel I have a lot to learn so what is best with pups and pregnant bitches?  I am thinking Panacur but wanted to get a consensus...

im worming mum from tomorrow day 40 with panacur 10% but once pups are born i will worm them at 3weeks and 7weeks but mum with be wormed with drontal plus xx

Ok, is it ok to worm mum and pups with different wormers?  I'm just thinking about what pups might get in milk etc... or should I not worry about that?

i did this last time and didnt get any problems at all.

I wormed Mum with Panacur 10% during pregnancy. I wormed my litter with Drontal Puppy at 2, 4, 6 and 8 weeks. One pup stayed with me until 4 months (pre-arranged) and she was wormed again at 3 and 4 months (I advised her owner to do at 5 and 6 months then to go onto 3 months - following my vets practice). I have used Panacur paste with my breeder friend's litter. The reason I opted for Drontal is simple, I just found it a whole lot easier than deciding which graduation I was using on the Panacur syringes. Have a look at one to see what I mean. My friend doesn't find it a problem, it's just me. Mum was wormed at 4 weeks with a Drontal Plus tablet. I am happy to use either Drontal or Panacur on the pups (cept I find the Panacur syringes hard to work out :-( ).

> I'd be interested to know which wormers breeders use with puppies.  The breeder of my older dog used Panacur paste (in the tubes) with the litter.  I'm not sure what the bitch was wormed with during pregnancy.  As we're planning this litter next year, I feel I have a lot to learn so what is best with pups and pregnant bitches?  I am thinking Panacur but wanted to get a consensus...

I use (and have for years) Panacur suspension 10%.  Licensed for use on pregnant bitches, I start my girls at day 40 of gestation, until 2 days post whelp.  Start pups on day 14, never had problems, and assume it is because pups are already used to it (via mum) before they are born.

Mine don't go on to Drontal+ until they're 6 months old.

The thing is Drontal puppy only worms round worms so if your bitch doesn't have these worm but other wigglies it's best to use panacur!!

Jean, do you use the Panacur 10% for your pups or do you use the Panacur paste/syringes?

I just spoke to a really experienced breeder yesterday (not my breed, but also a large gundog breed), whose advice seems spot on in almost everything else - who said that she doesn't worm during pregnancy as she doesn't like to give mum chemicals whilst she is carrying pups.  She worms just before mating and then once puppies are born, but not during pregnancy. 

Is she in the minority then, or are there others of you who don't worm during pregnancy?

I don't like to use any chemicals in on or around my dogs....and especially not during the delicate times of pregnancy and lactation. I understand the unsavoury life cycle of the worm but trust that Mother Nature has her reasons....and so focus my attention on diet and providing as close approximation as possible to the natural environment of a Wild Carnivore Mother

My thoughts on worms...

Mother Nature has her own balances and harmonies....and everything in Nature exists for a purpose.....
Raw Fed Carnivores are naturally much more resilient to both worms and fleas

(Dogs fed a species INappropriate commercial diet get a build up of mucous in the intestines that allows worms to thrive)

The coincidence of worms passed on at birth by suckling....reaching maturity around the 3 week mark in puppies is conceivably the first challenge to a developing immune system
RAW weaned and RAW fed Carnivore puppies are again naturally much more resilient to worms (and fleas) as is their Mother....

Based on the above I supplement the Mother with Food Grade Diatomateous Earth in her diet....and then from 3 weeks old when the little ones first start eating RAW rabbit mince....I add Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth to their RAW food too.

Her little ones thrive....gain weight naturally...no swollen tummies....and my first generation 100% natural pups I have kept myself (now a year old) show absolutely no incidence of ill health that could be attributed to internal parasites...

>Raw Fed Carnivores are naturally much more resilient to both worms and fleas

Wild animals - both carnivores and herbivores - are naturally absolutely riddled with parasites, both external and internal.

Even if thats so.....wild animals are positively glowing with health...compared to some of their domesticated counterparts....

At a distance it often appears that way. When seen close to, however, the evidence is very different.

>then from 3 weeks old when the little ones first start eating RAW rabbit mince....

Having skinned and gutted dozens and dozens of wild rabbits, and seen for myself the wriggling tapeworms in their guts, I'd be cautious about the source of the meat if you want to avoid infecting your puppies.

she doesn't worm during pregnancy

:-O :-O :-O

I too don't like to put chemicals into my dogs unecessarily, however, I do believe that worming during pregnancy is essential and I have yet to be convinced that any 'natural' alternatives work. 

Have a read of this:  http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases/toxocaracanis.htm

It might enlighten you as to why so many DO worm during pregnancy :-)

> <SPAN class=htt>In Response to</SPAN> Trialist Jean, do you use the Panacur 10% for your pups or do you use the Panacur paste/syringes?

I use Panacur 10% for the lot.  I never understand why people bother with the 2.5% when you need to give 4 times as much (and it costs the same)

Bear in mind that some tiny Chi pups are so small at 14 days that the dose is 0.02ml but I am happy about working out doses with confidence.  Haven't got a clue what a Panacur syringe is , so use the type that you would use when vaccinating.  (without the needle natch)

I like the fact that the 1ml syringes are easy to read and I stock 2ml and 5ml from the Canine Chemist so I didn't even know there was a difficult to read Panacur "proper" syringe!  :-)

I have never, ever had a problem using Panacur on titchy little things, and have always believed that they are used to it from mum.  Can you imagine how awful it would be to have a 2 or 3oz pup full of worms at birth?

> Even if thats so.....wild animals are positively glowing with health...

Sorry but that is not true at all.  I have, for work reasons, had to catch wild animals.  Definitely NOT glowing with health.  I have always felt so sad that wild animals are in such poor condition, and realise why they are not terribly long lived.

Having witnessed post mortems on said animals, I cannot agree with your statement.  It is unbelievable how riddled with disease they are.  I had always doubted this until I came out of dairy herd fertility work many years ago, and had my eyes opened very, very quickly.  It was difficult for me to keep my rosy view when shown the evidence.  Being me, I needed proof, and boy have I seen it.

> When seen close to, however, the evidence is very different. <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20 height=10>

Spot on!

Can I deviate away from pregnacy and puppies. Do people have a preference for a particular worming tablet, and why?

I prefer Drontal (we're talking tablets). I used to use Panacur tablets but they were withdrawn a couple of years, something bonkers like the flavouring wasn't licensed for humans I seem to recall!!  I have used Panacur 10% suspension for routine worming when I've had a bottle to use up.

I don't use Milbemax 'cause with my breed it's potentially lethal.

For regular worming we use Milbemax tablets every 3 months or so, and have never had any issues.

>Haven't got a clue what a Panacur syringe is

Panacur do a paste wormer (not a liquid like to 10% and 2.5%) which comes in a graduated syringe, similar to a ProMax syringe, where you just dial the required dose and squeeze.

> I don't use Milbemax

Is there a problem with milbemax and certain breeds?

Yes.  Milbemax and Collies for sure.

> I don't use Milbemax 'cause with my breed it's potentially lethal.

Which is why I don't have it in the house, even for the toys.  If my 3 Collies aren't allowed it, I don't see the point in keeping it in.

I use Drontal + with my adult dogs.  But I think that, for our litter next year, I'll use Panacur on both mum and pups. 

I was told by the breeder of my older dog that Panacur is gentler and not to use Drontal + till 6 months - even though it is the more effective wormer.  (I believe it covers a wider range of worms and includes both types of tapeworm - Panacur doesn't - but that's ok as the worms which pups tend to have are roundworms and Panacur is fine for them.)

Collies are such sensitive souls.....and it doesn't surprise me at all that they are overly sensitive to certain chemicals. The research has already been done to identify why Collies are so susceptible to a growing list of veterinary drugs....and I feel quite certain that if certain drugs affect collies that there are likely to be dangers yet to be identified in other breeds too.....

For me it just isn't worth the risk and especially not when natural alternatives exist. Natural Health should be the birthright of every living being so I would rather be pro-active in avoiding ill-health and focus on promoting Natural Health.....by attention to diet, environment and the use of natural substances.

The problem as I see it is that there are now so many immuno-compromised animals (and people) that it will be difficult to turn the tide of our reliance and dependence on "quick fix" medicines......and may take several generations to return an animal to its Natural state of being..... 

For me personally.....by its very definition a truly healthy living creature cannot be made "more healthy" by introducing foreign substances into it's body systems

Having skinned and gutted dozens and dozens of wild rabbits, and seen for myself the wriggling tapeworms in their guts, I'd be cautious about the source of the meat if you want to avoid infecting your puppies.

If you are worried about tape worms then just freeze it first.....

Sorry but that is not true at all.  I have, for work reasons, had to catch wild animals.  Definitely NOT glowing with health.  I have always felt so sad that wild animals are in such poor condition, and realise why they are not terribly long lived.

If we are talking about the likes of wild hedgehogs eating cat food in someones garden then yes they are likely to be immune compromised because they are not eating a species appropriate diet....

If we are talking about urban foxes who are raiding rubbish bins and refuse tips then yes they are likely to be immune-compromised because they are not eating a species appropriate diet...

If we are talking about a Lion who will bring down a charging bison with deadly horns......just in order to eat the species appropriate food that he instinctively knows his body needs......then try telling Him that in actual fact He is riddled with parasites and needs a worming tablet... :)

>If we are talking about a Lion who will bring down a charging bison with deadly horns......just in order to eat the species appropriate food that he instinctively knows his body needs......then try telling Him that in actual fact He is riddled with parasites and needs a worming tablet...

It doesn't matter whether you tell him or not, the fact remains that he will be riddled with parasites. Parasites are part of nature's Rich tapestry of Life just as much as anything else.

>If you are worried about tape worms then just freeze it first.....

Not worried about them, just accepting that they exist in 'healthy' wild animals which live the lifestyle nature designed for them. They're covered in fleas as well; that's normal for wild mammals. This is where the wild foxes, eating the wild rabbits, get contaminated themselves - they carelessly forget to freeze their kills before eating them! ;-)

Out of curiousity does anybody use Panacur Suspension routinely on their adult dogs instead of Milbemax or Drontal tablets.

I'm asking because all my adults are wormed with Drontal one year and then Milbemax the next and I have never seen a worm. However my last litter passed roundworm at their 5 week worming with Panacur even though all adults were passing clear stools. I'm wondering whether to dose them all with Panacur next time around to see if it produces anything.

But the worms that were passed were dead, I assume? If that's the case then the wormer has worked. It really isn't that shocking (unpleasant yes) that pups pass some worms. I suspect there are more that have worms than people want to own up to. Worms are truly amazing ... they can survive a very long time in Mum's system, it's hardly surprising even in healthy, regularly wormed mums that there are occasionally some that appear in pups faeces.

I have used Panacur suspension to worm my adult dogs when I've been using up a bottle. However, for routine worming you have to adminster it for 3 consecutive days (I think that's right, working from memory here :-) ) & it's just a little less easy to get the dogs to take it, specially when you're working with 20kg dogs - that's quite a bit of suspension. The only way I can 'disguise' it is to put it into fish poached in milk. I'm never organised enough to offer that for 3 days on the trot!

When the Panacur tablet was available I did alternate between that and Drontal Plus.

ive used panicur and then dronatal in the same litter ,the reason was i wormed pups at 2weeks then 4 weeks and pups had the runs when worming was due! itook them to the vets and couldnt find anything wrong we wormed them with drontal and the next day their poo was great again.

I use it as I get it by the 500ml or 1 litre bottle and also let freinds have it for their dogs at cost.

I only do them for tape worm once a year.

Panacur is just one dose for adults.