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Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / 1 day old pups - ? re: feeding
- By kes1988 [gb] Date 06.12.10 14:59 UTC
After a sleepless night my bitch (toy breed) gave birth to her first litter this morning at 59 days. She had five pups (one still born) all delivered within 2 hours.
She seems to be taking to motherhood quite well - being very careful around the pups, staying in her whelping box with them and regularly licking/cleaning them.
My main concern is despite not leaving her side I am yet to see 2 of the pups feed. 2 of the pups fed after I placed them on her teets but the other two haven't fed at all and will not latch onto her teets. I have spoken to the vet twice who has tried to reassure me by saying there is no need to worry until they are 6 hours old. However at 5.5 hours now I am worried out of my mind. They do not seem limp nor are they crying but neither will feed and don't seem to have any inclination to either. They are all warm to touch and of normal weight. Mum is eating and drinking well (far better than throughout her last 3 weeks of pregnancy)
I have a feeding kit ready which the vet has advised me to stay clear of for as long as possible (which I agree with) but don't know if they will feed from that when they wont take it from mum......
I have happily and willingly put my life totally on hold to be with both her and the pups 24/7 but just don't know what to do for the best. After having one still born I cannot imagine loosing another - Any advice would be very much appreciated.
- By sleepwhatsleep [gb] Date 06.12.10 15:32 UTC
I don't have any advice I'm afraid as I have large breeds and wouldn't know what is best for toys but just wanted to wish you luck. Someone way more experienced with toys will be along soon. All I know is that if my pups have not fed after 2 hrs they go on the bottle to give them a bit of a boost to stimulate the suckling reflex. Ive done this numerous times and it has worked every time for me... but as I said it may be a completely different scenario to your toys.
- By LucyDogs [gb] Date 06.12.10 15:32 UTC
I found with my first litter that the first few hours or perhaps a day the puppies hadn't quite worked out how to suckle. I had to put their mouths round the teats and then encourage them to close before trying to suckle, they were a bit daft! But soon got the hang of it. I tried that with my 2nd litter, a singleton, but madam was a diva from birth, she would not suckle a teat I tried to put her on, she insisted on finding her own teat even if the one she wanted was harder to reach! I'm sure your babies will get the hang of it soon.
- By kes1988 [gb] Date 06.12.10 17:01 UTC
Thank you for both of your responses :)
Three have fed now and the fourth has had a tiny bit. Fingers crossed they will feed again in a couple of hours and all will be well
Sorry for sounding like such a worrier, I just want to know I'm doing everything I can to help her and her pups
- By Brainless [gb] Date 06.12.10 17:46 UTC
It is important that puppies get the colostrum which can diminish quite quickly.

I would be trying to plug them on every half hour from birth, have never allowed pups not to suckle this long, as the instinct is supposed to be strongest straight after birth.

Let the other pups start sucking and pull them off to plug the dopey ones on, you can open their mouths by gently getting a finger into the corner of their mouth, and onto the teat.  it can be a fiddle but you need to get them on as they will tire and be unable to feed.

Are they warm, as chilled pups can't digest food and would be lethargic.

They need to be feeding at least every hour, basically all the time for the first three days between catnaps.  This will bring the milk in.

Wake them if need be.
- By gwen [gb] Date 06.12.10 17:57 UTC
Echoing Brainless' comments, I consider it very important for the pups to feed asap - especially a toy breed as their tiny size gives them very little "in hand" so to speak.  Don't wait for the next 2 hour feeding time, but try to get the one who has not fed yet on asap, and encourage by squeezing a little milk onto its lips, then gently open mouth and  put teat in.  Tickle under the chin to encourage sucking and latching on.  It may be you have to do this every feed for sometime until the pup gets the idea.  Remember, it is a lot easier  to make sure the pups feed and maintain their weight than leave it several hours (8 hours would be at least 4 missed feeds) and risk weight loss and dehydration,which it can be very hard to get back from.

I think it sounds like your vet has little idea of new born pups, especially toys - happens with a lot of vets.  The important thing is to feed often, and if a pup is unwilling or unable, then I give it maybe 2 feed times with a reluctant pup on Mum and then move straight to a bottle to supplement - you can move pup back to Mum when feeding well, but avoid missing feeds, it takes so little for a pup to lose weight and get dehydrated.
- By white lilly [gb] Date 06.12.10 18:14 UTC
im going to say the same thing! you need to keep putting pups onto mum they need to keep feeding from mum for the next few days/week ,the more they suckle the more ther milk will come and that 1st milk she has is so importent to them ,hope all is well good luck!
xx
- By kes1988 [gb] Date 08.12.10 12:22 UTC
Thank you for all your replies :) Your advice was excellent and has worked so well. With a lot of perseverance all the puppies are now feeding well and regularly. We are on day 3; totally exhausted, but I'm so much more positive after a shaky start!! (I have no idea how people raise a healthy litter with a job as well, there is no way I could have coped!!)
Does anyone have any suggestions of a really high quality wet complete food for my bitch? She has point blank refused dry food since becoming pregnant and following the poor advice from my vet I am starting to question many things she has said (she confessed that she is "more of a cat person" on Monday, I accept people have their preference of pet, but this was certainly not what I wanted to hear.....hence I'm changing vets asap!) She wolfs down cooked meats (chicken, ham, beef), liver,scrambled eggs and small bits of cheese but trying to get either puppy or adult food into her is a real struggle so obviously I'm quite concerned about the vitamins she is missing out on - particularly her calcium. I've also tried making up some Lactol and mixing that in with the scrambled egg before its cooked. I spoke to the vet about a possible calcium supplement but she didn't seem keen. (I've also been recommended tripe; by a close friend who breeds large dogs, to harden her stools as she ate 3 of the placentas - they're not watery but quite soft and sloppy....sorry for the detail)
The vet also reassured me that a discharge is normal for up to a week as long as it isn't strong smelling or greeny in colour.
Sorry for such a long post, I just want to check I'm getting the best and correct advice. You'd have thought 6 years at uni would have made the vet slightly more helpful. Thank you again for your earlier replies
- By white lilly [gb] Date 08.12.10 14:18 UTC
natures harvest puppy is great and natures diet puppy ,it can be warmed up too :) a number of reason why your girl isnt eating is ...3 placenters would feed her for a good few days :) her mouth could be sore thats why i feed dry puppy food soaked ,try goats milk mixed in her water she needs to drink plenty its that that makes her milk ,for the 4/5 days i dont worry if mum dont eat or eat much ,once pups get to 2/3 weeks she will eat loads ;) if she looks fine then dont need to give calcium. glad to hear pups and mum are doing well :) xx
- By gwen [gb] Date 08.12.10 17:56 UTC
Goats milk is good at this stage -  either just as a drink or you can soak complete puppy in it to soften it and make more tasty - she may eat it this way.  Don't panic too much about not eating complete - just get as much good quality food in to her (it sounds like you are dong fine with this)  keep on with the eggs, chicken, fish etc, and try adding a little soaked complete puppy in after a day or 2. Good luck
- By Brainless [gb] Date 08.12.10 20:17 UTC
Have you been sockaing the dry7 food, it needs to virtually go to much to get maximum liquids into teh bitch and also because the mouth may be sore from cleanign pups.

The discharge can go on for weeks, not just a week, as in humans.
- By JeanSW Date 08.12.10 23:26 UTC
I have toys, and was worried when I saw your first post, as those first 6 hours after birth are the most important. 

So I was pleased to see that you are now looking like a zombie  :-)  and things are looking up. 

My own girls are fed anything and everything to get them going, so don't panic over your girl not eating puppy food.  You have the right idea with what you are getting down her at the moment.  I have never, in many years with toys, given calcium, and never would, unless I honestly suspected a deficiency.  In which case I guess I would be racing to the vet with a very poorly bitch.  I am sure that your girl is doing ok on what you are getting down her.

As someone has pointed out, sore mouths are common in bitches, and you can imagine just how many licks that tiny tongue is fitting in!  As others have mentioned, goats milk is usually very well tolerated, and encourages the bitch to drink.  My girl are always pretty loose after whelping if I haven't been fast enough at getting an afterbirth off them.  I do try to limit them, but the little blighters snaffle them down so damn quick!  :-)

Edited to add, mine have discharge for quite some weeks after, as Barbara has pointed out, perfectly normal.
- By hayley123 Date 09.12.10 00:06 UTC
i personally would prefer to get as much food into the bitch as possible, i wouldnt be worried about the type of food as long as there is stuff she will eat, there wont be much demand from the pups now but in a few weeks the demand will be high and the pups will really drain your bitch so getting her to eat as much as possible during the next couple of weeks IMO is very important
- By kes1988 [gb] Date 10.12.10 14:08 UTC
Thank you so much!! I am so grateful for all your replies. I was starting to wonder what was more exhausting....surviving off zero sleep or the constant worry?? I'll keep going with the meats & eggs etc then and just keep offering her the complete puppy "mush" mix a couple of times a day until she seems more keen. Hopefully her appetite will start to pick up soon.
Its so much more reassuring to speak to people with such a wealth of experience and who can also understand that the smallest worry can so quickly turn into a huge mountain when you're so tired.
Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / 1 day old pups - ? re: feeding

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