i took my newfie age one today for a walk in the cemetary.He is always on a lead in public.A jack russel and a mix dog ran up to him,the jack russel jumped up and bit his neck.No damage was done as he got stans fur.The owner was not in sight,i pulled stan back,he was scared but no growling or approaching the jack russel,the jack russel jumpep up and attached himself again to stan,i tried to grab the jr off stan,but it went for me and re attached to stans fur on his neck,stan was scared so i kicked the jr.I feel so horrible for doing it,but i was scared he would get stans face,the owner strolled up and said sorry,i screamed at her to put a lead on her dogs,she said she was going to call the police as i kicked her dog,so i got my mobile phone out and recorded her dogs off lead growling at me and stan and told her to go ahead,i am ashamed to say i screamed and swore at her and she walked off,in my head i thought what the hell would have happened if i had my pug with me.I cant say how proud i am of stan for being so well behaved in the whole situation,so i am right or wrong that all dogs should be on a lead in a public place,also what would you have done,if i did wrong or could do something better if it ever happens again,it was blinken hard work holding back a huge newfie pup,some birthday walk that was
jo

Dogs have to be under control in a public place, it doen't matter if they are on a lead or not. I think I would have possibly have raised my foot too under these circumstances. And shouted and swore at the owner. Poor stan, it's not right that he was attacked, even if it was just a litle dog. It tends to be the little dogs that get away with it, just because they don't do the same damage that a big dog can. You were not in the wrong trying to defend youself and your dog.

thanks lindylou,
im here in tears,i would never ever hurt a dog,but it was mental,i thought that if it got stans mouth or eyes it would have ripped his face,owner was miles away,im so shaken
jo

Poor you Jo.. Its scary isn't it.

Not a huge amount you can do, but keep the footage. Do you know anything about dog and owner? I'd see if you can meet with the DW, as you just never know they may have some order in which dog has to be on a lead in a public place etc. Mention your concern re smaller dogs or people like the elderly who may not be able to react like you did to protect your boy.

This dog is likely to pick on the wrong dog and end up in a big fight...
Stupid owner....

Well one day the little dog will come off worse when he attacks a bigger dog who WILL retaliate.
Two of my dogs have been attacked by JRT's in different situations. One of my dogs was doing a down stay at obedience classes when he was attacked out of the blue. I didn't have to take action, the trainer really laid into the owner and pointed out what I said in my first sentence.

Well done to Stan. Hopefully you can avoid them in future. 

thanks everyone,
god its shaken me up,just because my mind is on overdrive now,ok it was a small dog,but if it was my pug he would not have stood a chance,her other dog was good,but it was BIG i was petrified it was going to join in,i cant pick stan up and run or cover him from it,plus as stan is extremely strong,it is so hard to pull him away anyway,god help us if it is ever a big dog.I never have stan off the lead,some people are scared of big dogs and i feel it would be unfair to have a huge newfie puppy bounce up to them,if people want to stroke him, i ask them to approach us,and to ignore him for a minute and wait till he has sat nicely for them,why people risk loose dogs if they are like that beats me,poor stan,birthday walkies did not go to plan!!!
I hope i dont bump into them again,i cant praise stan enough,he is such a big gentle softie,but you never know how any of your dogs will react if under atack and that scared me as well,but he was soo good,he was very jumpy on the way back to the car,and is having lots of cuddles now and a couple of treats bless him

There are two issues with this, first try to stay clarm and not have a heated comfortation with the stipid owner, dogs pick up on it and it makes them more nevous. I take a walking stick with me now and just haveing it there makes the owners get hold of thier dogs, I am sick to death of loose dogs attacking my dog.
Two JR's attacked him the other week, I put the stick under one of them and flicked it off, that made the owner come running to get them.
Sometimes I am sruggeling to cope with someones dog haveing a go at mine and the owner is strolling along on the phone!!!!!!!!!!!

But no I dont blame you for reacting like that. maybe if it happens again you could manage to get hold of the JR and drop it over the fence.

The other thing with this JR owner is- want is she doing letting dog off lead in a graveyard? where is her repect?
If I take a shortcut across our village graveyard my dog is on lead, and not even allowed to walk on the grass.

We've been in a similar situation several times. The first time Buster & I met 2 loose JRTs they were trying to jump up on him and acting very confrontational (one was circling him in a 'strutting' manner, while the other was trying to jump up over his shoulders). The way I handled it was to not allow myself to panick, praising Buster for being gentle and being assertive towards the loose dogs - I stood tall, shoulders back, and grimmaced while growling a 'Get out of it' to them. It seemed to work as they backed off.
Another time we met the same dogs (never an owner with them), my OH was with me. My OH got very cross with the dogs and kicked out towards them - the smallest of the 2 then had a go at his ankle!!
I've met these dogs many times now, and have learned the best way of dealing with them is for me to take a step to the side & give Buster more lead (he appears to be loose then wth no restried movement = less of a target for bully dogs!), if they progress to trying to get on him or snap at him I'll them step firmly towards them and tell them 'NO', but the only way a vocal command works on them is if you honestly expect thme to listen to you and you have it about you that you will not take no for an answer and will quite happily eat them for breakfast yourself if they disobey!!
Dogs can pick up on panick/fear so staying calm really does help and can serve to stop a confrontation before it starts.

> it was blinken hard work holding back a huge newfie pup

I used to try to hold Buster back when meeting the JRTs but, have found if I let Busters lead out (long line), they leg it! I must add that Buster thinks they are jolly good fun and only wants to play, but they really are just little bullies and freak out when they see Buster can actually get to them.

Sorry, not much help after all my waffling!

I'm so sorry that you had this experience to deal with, not very nice is it.  If I can I usually put my dogs on the other side of me so that I am in the middle and try to move away usually giving the 'get lost' message to the other dog/s or at least keeping them at a distance until the owner turns up.  This is the point that I find hard staying calm especially when the owner mutters 'they only want to play'.

As me dog has been attacked twice by the same dog (who has also attacked several other dogs on the local park) and after posting on here, I would not hesitate to kick it if it came to attack him again.  Last week said dog was making a beeline for George so I ran over to George to get him on his lead so if the dog came any closer I would still have control of my dog and could lift him out of the way if it came to it. 
I feel my walks are slightly ruined as they are ALWAYS smack bang in the middle of the park so I have to keep my wits about me to avoid them :-(

Jo. Please that you are both OK, I would have probably done much the same. All good intentions and training get lost in the fight I'm afraid and I tend to act on instinct, one of ours was paralysed and ended up at the specialist last year after an attack and I did for sometime after carry a stick - didn't use - it but sadly it made me feel better. Now knowing his back is not what it should be I'm even more concerned when a dog rushes him, and although I've not yet kicked out at a dog if I had to I would. Best wishes.

> if they progress to trying to get on him or snap at him I'll them step firmly towards them and tell them 'NO', but the only way a vocal command works on them is if you honestly expect thme to listen to you and you have it about you that you will not take no for an answer and will quite happily eat them for breakfast yourself if they disobey!!
> Dogs can pick up on panick/fear so staying calm really does help and can serve to stop a confrontation before it starts.
>
>

Very important point made here.  Anyone that is scared the dogs won't obey, is not going to be successful.  I was once so incensed that a dog dared to think it could attack, that I just didn't feel any fear myself.  Consequently, my command was confident and made with no doubt that I should be obeyed! 

mastifflover is right- your frame of mind does have a great bearing on the outcome of these sort of issues.

IMO kicking the dog was your only action, you are ok legally to protect yourself and your animals, if farmers are allowed to shoot dogs for worrying their livestock, your certainly allowed to kick an off lead dog attacking your own. I can't believe owners of such dogs dare to get the hump over it.

I saw the exact same thing approx 4 weeks ago on the way to London for a nice evening at the theatre.   unfortunately, with my little nieces, we had stopped at traffic lights and this off lead Staff just ran into the road, my heart stopped as I thought it would be run over, the owner grabbed the dog angrily, (as if it were the dogs fault :-( ) but did not put it on lead still, left it wandering on the pavement, along came an on lead Staff and the loose one went for it, all out fight, the owners dragged them apart, but this idiot just let his dog go again, like to add he had a lead in his hand all through this, the dog went straight back at the dog on lead, whose owner this time gave the dog an almighty kick into the road, don't blame him at all, the owner would not restrain his dog!!!!!

The guy in the wrong had the cheek to verbally and threateningly abuse the owner for daring to kick his dog!

Loads of people were stood watching don't know how it ended up as the lights changed, but we were all left feeling so upset at that owners behaviour, and seeing a dog fight, my youngest niece was crying, I hope that someone called the police.  Worst of all we saw a lady walking towards all this with a lab pup, so we stopped the car and told her not to go up there.

Don't feel bad hun, I wouldn't let man or beast hurt my dog either. ((((hug))) Report her to the dog warden, you'll save someone else going through it.

> I cant say how proud i am of stan for being so well behaved in the whole situation

I think being calm in these situations must be a breed trait.  My neighbour in NZ had several of these gentle giants.  He once told me of a time he was walking his big male and they came accross a yob with his pitbull and the yob told his dog to attack. The newfie just dropped himself on top of the pit and squashed him with his full 13 stone, apparently the pit couldn't move or hardly breathe. When he was finally released the poor dog just staggered over to his owner and got abused for his unsuccessfull attack.

So glad Stan was unhurt, he will probably forget about it a lot quicker than you.

This kind of situation makes me so damn angry....dont feel upset at giving the JR the boot I would have dont the same thing, if a dog attacked my dog I would resort to anything to get it off ..if a shooo and a physical removal wasnt possible then to use your foot is what I would have done too ...you have to protect your own dog .These people who meander around parks etc oblivious of what thier animals are doing deserve a good mouthful so dont feel embarassed I would have been standing right next to you .
Hope your boy is ok today and over the shock.

Really frightening situation which I have also experienced.
Attack my dogs at your peril! I would do whatever it takes to save my dogs from an attack and irresponsible owners that don't have their dogs under control will get the sharp edge of my tongue. A walking stick kept 2 attacking dogs at bay on one occasion.

Andi

Lunamoona
That NZ NFL sounds like one cool dog, when in doubt, 'sit on him', love it!!
Andi

Joanne, I have done the same thing and, when threatened with the police I said go ahead make my day, I think you will find that legally you have a dog not under proper control, my dog is on the lead, and I have hundreds of people around this country who know this dog and its temperament not to mention she is a PAT dog.

People like this continue to bully other dog owners and allow their dogs to do so, because nobody has read them the facts of life.

I have reported two people both to the police and the dog warden and their dogs are either not around or are put on a lead when I am in the vicinity.

I have tried the softly softly approach, it does not work, mainly because owners are miles away from the out of control dogs. Quite often I would prefer to whack the owners, but as I often say, if I was a car your dog would be dead and it would not be my fault but yours, fail to take responsibility for your dogs, then you must reap what you sow!

So do not feel too bad, the law enables you to take reasonable steps to protect yourself, your family and your belongings!

> he was very jumpy on the way back to the car,and is having lots of cuddles now and a couple of treats bless him

Just noticed this bit. I know you want to make him feel better, but you risk making him a nervous wreck by codddling him when he's nervous. As you say, Stan is going to be a huge dog and allready is very strong, it really is in yours and stans best interests to try to treat incidents like this as a learning curve. There will be times when dogs snap/growl at stan becasue they are nervous of his size (I get this alot with Buster), if he is confidant then he will not feel the need to fight. However, if he is nervous it may make him defensive and as you are a responsible owner, I;m sure hte last thing you want is Stan to injure another dog.
It really is very important for you to stay calm and after any event like this you need to be up-beat about it, not cross or frightened. You can then pass on to stan that these are encouters that mean nothing.

I too worry about my dog ever defending himself as he would cause so much damage. There really is no need for him to do so though. His best defense is his attitude - non confrontational and confidant, which I have done my best to keep in him. If I kicked out at every nasty dog that pestered Buster, I would risk teaching him that growly/snapping dogs need a physical approach and there is no way I want my 14 stone Mastiff getting physical with an old ladies little fluffy dog, just becasue it got intimidated by Busters size and snapped out at him in self defense.

I know there are plenty of people who would not hesitate to kick/punch a dog in order to protect there dog and I understnad why, but for me the lesson learned from the experience is vitally important. I could not take my giant dog on happy walks if he was willing to get physical with all non-friendly dogs we met, so it's important I lead by example - use vocal commands or avoidance, never violence.

Thankyou all for the replys,i do feel better today and i have got straight back onto the ball by taking my stan out in town where father xmas and reindeers etc and tons of people and dogs were there and all was fine,Stan was brilliant at doing as he is told,its all tone of voice with stan,not volume,a deep belly no,or heel works well!!!The nz newfie tale made me laugh my head off.I  think the hardest part of owning a newfie who like you say is going to be alot bigger,is that it was so hard to try to get between them,stan seems to put himself in front of me,im not sure if thats a newfie or a just a dog thing,bless him.I will be alot calmer next time,just shock and fright hit me,you cant help imagining a worst senario,ie if it was a bigger dog,or if my kids were with me etc.I do feel bad for kicking her dog,but it was the owners fault for not having her dog under control,i would never hurt any animal and you will quite often see me driving around looking for lost pets in my area!!!Just cant think why people take the risk of letting their dogs off the lead if they are that way inclined.I see another dog lady on walkies,the very first time i met her she said to me,dont come over near my boxer my love with your newfie as he dont like dogs bigger than him,she said she would not let her boxer off the lead incase a bigger dog came around the corner,i thought how lovely and responsable she was.Shame everyone was not like that
jo

Just to reiterate what everyone else has said. I would have acted the same way and (sadly) kicked the dog. There is a lady who comes on the park with her two cocker spaniels, one is a bit stand offish but her boy used to play with my dogs until one day he was attacked by two JR's (owned by a retired policeman). His answer when his dogs attacked was 'Cocker Spaniels are right wimps'. That poor lady's dog is now a nervous wreck, he won't play with my dogs anymore and sits by her side and bares his teeth when another dog comes over. He is now more relaxed around my dogs but still won't play with them. Just shows how irresponsible some dog owners can be.

I would have done the same, trying (as I'm sure you did) not to kick hard enough to really hurt, just to shock him and scare him off. Of course we are all dog lovers on here, but our own dogs come first and if another dog made an unprovoked attack and it was the only way to save my own dogs.....

It's not necessarily the attacking dog I have issues with but the owners, and how they deal with it. It's either been my misfortune but some seem to get a kick out of it and haul their dog away with a smirk, tell me that my dog(s) need toughening up or don't get lippy with me or i'll let the dog off again to finish it this time. A boxer came running out of a field last week and chased us some distance down the road, owner not at all concerned that her dog loose in a narrow lane, caught up with us some minutes later, whipped it hard with the lead and then dragged it away hitting it around the face at the same time. If our dogs have problems, I always tell people that I'm the cause and it's my fault not the dogs.

what is she doing letting dog off lead in a graveyard?

A good point--our local authority has amended its bye laws so that all dogs must be on a lead and limited to one dog per walker. Hope you and Stan are feeling better now, happy belated birthday!

>our local authority has amended its bye laws so that all dogs must be on a lead and limited to one dog per walker

But that's ridiculous! What about people who have more than one dog? Are they never allowed to walk them together?

our local authority has amended its bye laws so that all dogs must be on a lead and limited to one dog per walker

Sorry, we were talking about graveyards--this only applies to walking dogs in the cemetery, but yes, it's completely idiotic. Dogs don't pull over gravestones or write graffiti everywhere.

I too would have wanted to react the same way as you did and kick the darned thing but I would have wanted to throttle the owner too!

But as others have said, the way you handle these difficult situations can have either a negative or positive impact on your own dog and the way he sees and deals with similar occurances in future.

I don't hold with using food for all everyday training of my own dogs but when out I always have a pocket full of treats.  If a dog comes up giving off the wrong behaviour I chuck a handful of food on the floor a good couple of feet from my own dog and when the loose dogs go in for it I calmly walk off.

> I chuck a handful of food on the floor a good couple of feet from my own dog and when the loose dogs go in for it I calmly walk off

Suzieque. Do you not then have the problem that the other dog then follows you for more food. Only ask as when we had our first dog who was insecure of people coming up to him, asked him to sit and when settled asked the OP if he would give him a treat. This worked well, but being 'cute' we then had the problem that he would rush up to any stranger sit and wait for his treat.

> Do you not then have the problem that the other dog then follows you for more food.

I doubt you would as the food is only chucked out as a distraction to a dog, that is interested in your dog, to break it's focus. It's not in the same frame of mind as a dog that has come up to you to see if he can get a treat. (if that makes any sense!)
I've had this advice (throwing food to distract approaching dogs) from these boards myself when asking what to do in situations with approaching dogs. I did chuck some cubes of cheese away form me when a dog was snarling at me (the loose JRTs we meet are great with Buster now, but appear very frightened of peopel and still growl at me :( ), in an attempt to 'peace make' with the dog, but the dog wasn't interested atall, he had a quick sniff of it and ran off.

Even if the approaching dog did suddenly change it's state of mind to begging for food from you, I'd have thought it should then be easier to get it to follow some verbal commands (stay/leave/no) as it is focusing on you, not your dog, while waiting for good things to happen.