Hi I'm new here with a big-ish problem so any advice would be helpful
I'm the proud owner of a KC reg toy dog, we decided after he turned 2 in may that we would stud him out as we wanted another puppy with his lines. We set up an ad and got a lot of interest. A young woman emailed us saying that she wanted to use our dog to stud her bitch and before we could say anything about us wanting a puppy she offered us pick of the litter! We was thrilled! We set up when we was going to go up (as they were in a different city) and she explained to us why she wanted to breed as her son wanted to get into the show ring. The day we arrived before our dog studded we both signed a contract saying that we would get pick of the litter. Our dog studded the bitch twice and she did become pregnant. The puppies were born on the 15th October 2010 she only had two a boy and a girl however because the bitches owner was inexperienced when the little boy got stuck in the birth canal she didn't know how to help and by the time the emergency vet arrived the puppy had been stuck far too long and had died before the vet could help. So there was only one little girl surviving, the woman emailed us what happened and our heart sank. At the end of the email  she said that after what had happened they would be definitely be keeping the girl, which confused us because we was supposed to the puppy even if there was only one? We never discussed any money it was all about the puppy, if we'd discussed money in the contract I would happily take a stud fee. Because she went back on the agreement I refused to sign the papers so she could register the puppy and now she has emailed us saying that because I wouldn't sign the papers she's now going to sell the little girl because she's not registered. We thought she was going to keep the puppy because after everything the puppy meant to much to her? Then why would she sell her now? If she doesn't want the puppy shouldn't we get her? Shouldn't we of been first priority because of the agreement? We would love to have the puppy but we don't know what to do in this situation. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you For Reading
Kurroi

Personally, I think you have been really mean, your both complete novices you don't even use the correct terminology with regards to breeding.

If there is only one puppy then of course the bitch owner gets it, they have just put their bitch through 9 weeks of carrying a pup, the trials and tribulations of whelping, the next 12 weeks of rearing, feeding, cleaning up after the pup and you seriously think your entitled to it?

How awful that you would not sign the KC document, of course they can't keep this little pup they've reared, they can't show it without papers!

When things like this happen and nothing is ever black and white when it comes to breeding then you should have just taken a fee, not blackmailed the bitch owner, personally I think your bang out of order!

this is why i now not have pick of litter if our boy is used we have stud fee! ...when you do choose a pup then the contrate has to state all the problems that might happen ,so if the bitch owner then agree's to it you sign they sign and an indepented person signs also , so that if thay dont sick to the agrement you have to go to small claims court ,and for this reason (ive looked into it all because i was going to have pick of litter)when my boy sired a litter not long ago! i now will take stud fee ,if i like any of the pups i will pay for 1 xx

I'm very surprised that with all that this bitch has been through and the owners that you are being so selfish on this, some people do amaze me.

Personally i'd learn from this and if your boy is used in the future take payment, if no puppies are produced or only 1 like in this case you need to work out with breeder what will happen, refund on fee, half fee etc..

In this case i'd sign the papers, allow her to keep this bitch for showing and no charge. Learn from it and move on... Sorry but i'd not like to deal with someone like you who appears very heartless. Breeding is hard enough, without people like you looking at the dogs as a commodity rather than the pets that they should be.

Can you not come to some agreement over an appropriate stud fee and then you will sign the documents.  It seems such a shame after all everyone has gone through for this pup to go to a pet home.

Our agreement with our stud owner is if the litter is very small then only half the fee is paid she would never of demanded the remaining puppy as payment, release the KC number and only ask half stud fee, think of the the poor bitch owner :( Owning a stud dogs comes with responsibility and you would want a good reputation as fair and caring breeder. 

For future reference for the OP, the responsible way to go about breeding is nothing like this. To get interest in a potential stud dog, very few good breeders would ever consider advertising. You get the dog out and about at shows, and if he's good enough, bitch owners who see him in the ring will ask to use him. Likewise, no responsible bitch owner would reply to an advert for an unknown dog -especially not if they want to get into showing. You then need to discuss ALL eventualities in advance, such as what happens if there is only one puppy, or if no pups are born or if the entire litter dies. It would NOT be the norm for any stud dog owner to get pick of the litter, pick of the litter belongs to the breeder. If a puppy is given in lieu of a stud fee then usually the dog owner gets second pick. Now this isn't my breed, but remembering what JeanSW has said in the past, I'm pretty certain the price of a puppy in this case is a LOT higher than the normal stud fee anyway.

The logical thing in this situation would be to ask for a stud fee, sign the papers and let the bitch owners keep the pup. As you both sound very much like novices (there is no such thing as "studding" your dog, the word doesn't even exist, he did not stud, he mated a bitch, etc) I hope you have checked that both dog and bitch are registered in the respective owners' names (i.e have been transferred from the breeders' names) and that neither is endorsed, as if that is the case the puppy cannot be registered anyway.

I quite agree MarianneB.

I'm pretty certain the price of a puppy in this case is a LOT higher than the normal stud fee anyway.

Precisely, I honestly can't believe what on earth the OP is thinking here.

Not only has the bitch owner had the normal expenses of caring for a bitch in whelp, she's undoubtedly also had huge vet fees, had the worry and upset of possibly losing her bitch in whelp, the horror of losing a pup, the 2-4 weeks of never leaving the whelping area to ensure the survival of the remaining pup, the early mornings and late evenings of continual care, and yes after all that stress and upset and expense she is going to now hand over a pup worth between £1,500 - £2,500 and walk away with nothing except a heavy heart.

The very reason she mated her bitch was to hopefully get a pup of show quality - but no she is supposed to walk away with nothing???

Through malice which is exactly how our OP has acted, the bitches breeder now has no choice other than to sell on the unregistered bitch so that she can then buy in a new pup which will be KC registered and can be shown by the daughter. Which is going to cost her up to £2,500 she would obviously have preferred her own reared bitch.

To our OP I really hope that you have a serious re-think of your actions, this mating wasn't all about you and you had the easy part. Through very bad luck the second pup was lost, I do understand how upsetting that is for you and how much you longed for a pup too, but through your actions the bitches breeder is having to lose her pup too now.

You just do not breed like this.

> The very reason she mated her bitch was to hopefully get a pup of show quality - but no she is supposed to walk away with nothing???
>
>

To be honest getting a stud dog advertised anywhere but a breed club publication is not the way to get a show puppy anyway.

That aside if the agreement was a puppy then a puppy it should be, but morally a stud fee and the option to buy a puppy would be fair where the puppy price and stud fees are so vastly differing.

Even in my own breed where stud fees are the price of a puppy I would always agre a fee, and a puppy could be bought if one available, and of the quality the stud owner wanted.

My last litter was primarily bred with the hope there would be  good enough pup for the stud owner, but I already had already kept two of the bitches daughters.

>Because she went back on the agreement I refused to sign the papers

Blackmailing each other is no way to move this forward.  I understand that with toy breeds very small litters and single puppies are not unusual so these possibiities need to be agreed up front.  I also agree that perhaps you didn't go about this in the right way and arrangements with complete strangers are fraught with danger.  However you now have a situation you need to move on from.

Your dog sired a puppy and you are due a fee (be that money or a puppy).  However, their bitch had only one girl and they rightly want to keep her as this may be the only litter they get from her, and the only puppy.  Your dog has many chances of siring other puppies.

The chances of this girl being everything you want in a puppy are quite remote given that she is from a bitch you do not know, with an owner you have problems with.

Chalk this one up to experience.  Ask for a fair monetary fee and, in return, agree to sign the paperwork.  Use an escrow service if you need to for both your sakes.

I a agree 100% ...the breeder has been thro so much ask for small stud fee and sign the paper work. xx

Why did you think you'd get better answers off here as opposed to your post on YahooAnswers.

I hope your not the twitter or facebook name as there is no dog in site.

do you mean or the OP ? or did you just click on mine :-) xx

> do you mean or the OP ? or did you just click on mine :-) xx

Eh!! lol.

I mean the OP, he/she posted on another forums as well.  The same thing.

Iv seen the Yahoo answers thing and the OP states their dog is a Champion and have bred before, if this is the case am surprised at how wrong this went, if this was really the case why didn't you get help form the breeder or the breed club? Many people on the other thread said you were 'scre**d' and said the pup was yours etc but I completely disagree you have no claim over the puppy, just get a small fee, and walk away.

sorry LOL i ment did you mean me or the op :) normaly if you answer the op you click on them so they know its them your talking to ....if i was reading a post and wanted to aswer what they had put id click on them ,sorry if im not makeing much sense ive got a headache :-( ...
ope you know what im talking about il leave it there LOL ;) xx

Ok i'm not going to "bash you" as you have put it in another post but this is how it was when my bitch whelped. From the start of labour until all of the pups and mum eventually came home to me from the vets, it was sheer and utter hell. Both my partner and i had been awake for more than 48hrs. Didn't want to miss a thing, too many 'just in cases' going on. The first pup was a still born and although i had two expert breeders here with me to assist with the bitch we all tried for more than 30 mins plus to get this little boy breathing but it wasn't going to happen and the hardest thing for my partner was to bury him down the end of the garden we were all heartbroken but not as much as my bitch was. All she wanted to do was nurse her baby she had worked so hard for and she couldn't wake him up. She was howling, which made the whole episode just so unbearable. The remainder of the pups were born by caesarian as the first still born had caused a queue of pups waiting to be born with added complications for each of them.
Since you say you have bred before using your own dogs i think at the very least you should have some understanding and compassion of what they have been through for the owner of the bitch and the bitch herself who would have a very strong bond with her baby. I'd fight anyone through every court in the land if a stud owner tried to remove my only pup. 

> normaly if you answer the op you click on them so they know its them your talking to ....if i was reading a post and wanted to aswer what they had put id click on them

lol, never knew that.  Wondered why sometimes it didn't say there was replies.

I still think the OP had a point, they were having a dog instead of fee.  I've aleways been warned if only one dog I would have to hand it over or negotiate the stud fee.  i think they both need to take a deep breath ans talk to each other.  I think the OP should opt for a stud fee and sign the papers. 

Like others have said he can stud again, she might not mate the bitch again, or any bitch after this experience, I'm refering to the whelp issue not the dog issue.

Hope you can sort it out and move on. 

I have the breed concerned.  As others have mentioned, the stud fee is nothing like the price of a puppy.  If a bitch owner offered me pick of litter, I would immediately know that they did not show, knew little about the breed, and nothing of the etiquette expected.

Any owner of a stud dog of this breed, expecting to get pick of litter instead of a stud fee would in my eyes, most definitely not be an ethical breeder, just a money grabbing BYB.

I have had someone use one of my boys, and the bitch only carried one pup, dead at birth.  While the stud fee was actually paid for my boys services, and resulted in a pregnancy, you could say that I owed them nothing.  However, knowing the heartbreak of this breed, I have offered them a free return next year.

Going back 5 years ago, one of my boys was used on a bitch that travelled some distance.  I charged £200 for his services.  When I saw the pups (with new owners) at around 8 months of age, I really liked what I was seeing.

3 years ago, the same bitch came back.  I charged £200 again.  The bitch had 2 pups - which I bought at a price of £1,200 for the girl and £800 for the boy.  I think you will find that what I paid was slightly more than a stud fee. 

Your big-ish problem, as you call it, is not a problem, but your lack of knowledge is.  As your boy is not known, you could probably ask for £100 stud fee.  But it is totally 100% out of order not to sign those papers.

To be honest getting a stud dog advertised anywhere but a breed club publication is not the way to get a show puppy anyway.

:-) Yes, I think we'll all be in agreement there, it's plane as the nose on our faces that these two didn't have a clue about what they were getting into or how to do things properly, which is why the outcome is so upsetting. I just hope that all relevant health checks were done for the dam and sire beforehand on both sides too.

But, the reasoning for the mating was for the bitch owner to get a puppy too for her daughter to show, (albeit she took a dodgy route to do so) we all know that even in a litter of 3-4 pups, there may never have been a show winner there, so the one surviving  pup I agree it would be a miracle if she is of show 'winning' quality anyway, however, the pup would have been a starting place for the daughter to begin entering shows and learning all about the show world and what the judges look for etc, it would have also introduced the mother and daughter to the type of stud dog and owner they should be using.

I'm judging this on the fact that the daughter is grown and maybe not living at home anymore as obviously if younger and still at home she could do the rounds with the bitch bred from with her mother. In which case the mother should have known better. :-(

You have received lots of good advice on this post - it would be nice if you could give your opinions on them....

I find it such a shame when good and useful advice is given - as we'd all like to know how/what you've done/will do in this situation.

I am not critising, but perhaps you should have asked on the forum about stud dog contracts etc prior to allowing the mating.

I "gave" a friend a pup from my last litter of Westies, The deal was that when she bred the pup that I could have one of the pups.  My other pups were sold for £350 at that time.   However, over the years our friendship has now ended although she did email me to ask if I still wanted a pup or money when she sold them.  Due to my own dogs now getting on a bit, I felt that it would not be fair to bring a young pup into our home at this late stage in their lives.  I opted to take the money when she sold my pup.  She has now sent me a cheque for £350 although she sold my pup for £500   Is this fair???

> She has now sent me a cheque for £350 although she sold my pup for £500   Is this fair???

Fair or not, I would say don't dwell on it.  It will only make you bitter.  My best advice would be "move on."

Sound advice but i'm so annoyed because I knew someone who was wanting a Westie and had offered me £450 for the pup, it would have went to a really loving family home and I have been so happy for both the family and puppy. I'm just frustrated I suppose but thanks for your advice.

Think the answer is always put it in writing, whether it is fair or not depends what side of the fence you are on but there is nothing you can do so forget it, you could have taken a pup and re-sold it if money is what is worrying you but if it is just the sour taste of a broken friendship then I would move on, lesson learnt.

It is certainly not the money issue here, but to be honest with you, it was not a "friend" but my sister,  and that is what is leaving a sour taste in my mouth, I am quite sure the pup has gone to a good home, dont doubt that for a minute, but maybe I was looking to patch things up and all that has happened now is that we have been driven further apart, for the sake of £150!!!.  Lesson learnt and thanks for your advice here, drawing a line under it all and moving on!

It sounds like she has given you the cost of the original pup, which could be what she thinks the agreement should be

Yes , my sentiments exactly, just wish I had took the original agreement to take my pup, but I love my girls too much to upset them now, hindsight is a marvellous gift lol !! Lesson learned, whether friend  or foe, written agreement always !!!

I have learnt the hard way and now whether a friend or family everything is put in writing. That way everyone knows where they stand and if u fall out u still have that all important piece of paper to safeguard the dog agreement.

i wouldnt sign the papers either. if she is not going to pay then why should you. i came on here before for some help and most of them just keeped on and didnt help.

You got the price of what she would of paid you for a pup in the first place so I don't see the problem myself.  She could of had the litter and not even bothered advising you, it sadly does happen.  I'd be happy that she'd kept in touch and had given you something.

Seems this is a family quarrel between Sisters and I would not wish to become involved but not to sign the stud papers is not the way to go if the stud owner wants the best for her dogs puppies. It could well be just a misunderstanding of what the agreement was and is not worth stirring up the mud to cause further problems in the family.