Does anyone know if any points can be counted for BIS at a Breed Open show?

A Kennel Club Show Certificate of Merit (ShCM) will be issued on receipt of an application from the
registered owner at the time of qualification, in respect of a dog that has obtained 25 points at General
and Group Open Shows. A minimum of five points must be won in Group Competition. The scale of
points is as follows:
1 Five points for Best in Show
2 Four points for Single Group Best in Show
3 Three points for Reserve Best in Show at a General Open Show or Group Open Show not judged on
the Group System effective date 1st February 2006
4 Group placings will obtain the following points (Multi Group Shows only):
1st - four points, 2nd - three points, 3rd - two points and 4th - one point
(Puppy Group placings do not gain points)
5 One point for Best Any Variety Not Separately Classified
(AVNSC Hound, Gundog etc. winner of overall Best AVNSC)
6 One point for Best of Breed
7 Only points won on after the 1st January 2003 may be counted towards this award
The title "ShCM" may be used after the name of the dog on show entries and in catalogues.

In a word, no. Breed shows do not count.

Shame thats what  thought :-(

Would BIS at a Breed Club show not count as a BOB and therefore be worth the one point?

No breed shows don't count in any way at all. :(

The award was to encourage attendance at all breed or group open shows, the ones I rarely attend these days, as the diesel is the same as for other shows, and when a choice has to be made I opt for Breed club, or champ shows with or without CC's.

With a numerically small breed that is where I am more likely to get competition and a judge that is more knowledgeable.

The only advantage the General Open shows have for me is lower entry fees, but often there are very few eligible classes, and I won't travel to show one dog in one class at this level.  Doesn't help when all my dogs are above Post Graduate, mostly Open and Veteran.

I find the ShCM system very odd....it all makes sense, except when you get to the top level.

In particular at an all breed show on the group system - if you win BIS you get 5pts (in addition to your 1pt for BOB and 4pts for Group 1 - so 10pts in total) - if you get RBIS you get absolutely nothing on top of your 5pts for BOB/G1 - where on earth is the fairness/logic there?! I don't understand how they came up (or didn't!) with that one. Surely if BIS gets 5pts RBIS should get either 3 or 4pts?

RBIS already got points for their group win.

So did BIS. I agree, if Group 2, 3 and 4 are good enough for points, RBIS should be too!

You get three points for RBIS

You only get points for RBIS if it is a show NOT run on the group system.

That's to make up for the lack of Group points.

Bit like CC's really no amount of RCC's will make your dog up, it's win or nowt ;)

Though there have just contradicted myself as second third and fourth in group get points, Oh well

Same as not getting any JW points because there weren't 3 pups in your breed puppy class, even if you got Best Puppy beating more than 3.

Yes Barbara, and I could understand no points for RBIS if BIS didn't get points either....the point is BIS & RBIS both get 1pt for BOB and 4pts for winning their group, but then BIS also gets an additional 5pts...and RBIS doesnt get anything. It's totally illogical, especially as there are points for Group 2, 3 and 4.

IMO it would make sense if there were no points for BIS or RBIS.....it would make sense if there were points for BIS and RBIS. What doesn't make sense is points for BIS but not RBIS!

I've never thought the JW points made sense either, I've been whinging for 7 years now because my boy missed it by 3 points, but IF they counted BOB as another class providing there were 3 in the challenge and he won, he would have had it with points to spare! I know you get a point for BOB if there weren't 3 in the class, but I think if there are 3 in the challenge and you win it should count too. Oh well!

I thought you did get points for BOB if you beat more than 3 ???  Was having this discussion recently sure that BOB did count if more 3 present off to look up again!  Not that I'm chasing or will probably ever have this worry.

I did hear a rumour that they were looking at JW to include Puppy Group / BPIS in the awards - don't know how true this is though.

Yes here it is

You can claim one point for Best of Breed at an Open Show, but only if you were not able to claim a point for a 1st prize in a breed class and only where there are three or more dogs present in the breed

Don't know when that was changed Lucy but you can now claim a point for BOB at open show where 3 or more present in the breed :)

I think Lucy already had the points in teh class, but wanted extra points for BOB.

Yes that's right Brainless - we got the points for winning the classes, but I think if you beat another 2 different dogs in the challenge it should count the same as a class. Not something it's really worth me moaning about about all these years, but it will always bug me that he would have had it with loads to spare if I could have counted the challenges. :-)

doh me knew contact lenses missing words out - Sorry gals!  Think I should stop replying making loads of mistakes lately!!! Insert the embarrassed smiley.

It does seem to need a relook on other wins over and above a class win doesn't it.

I'm confused even more now.. With regards points at an open show then its only  ShCM points that can be gained her and not JW.
SO with regards your boy having more points if the rules were different LucyDogs were you talking JW? As there is no time limit on gaining points for ShCM, or has this now changed? I also read that for open shows if you got BOB, even if no others present you get a BOB 1 point, has this now changed too?

Rachel,
I've just got myself very confused and you made it worse ;-)

ShCM - You don't need a certain number of dogs in your breed to get points, they start off with BOB and points gained from there upwards, not classes.
JW - This is min of 3 in each class for points..

Unless someone is going to tell me otherwise? Just double checked on the KC site!!

LOL :)  sorry Sue - I was talking to Lucydogs about JW points not ShCm

Taking the info from the kc site:

Rules for ShCM are as follows:
No limit in number in class :)
25 points in total can be claimed from placings at General Open Shows or Group Open Shows.
5 Points must be won in Group Competition.
5 Points for Best In Show
4 Points for Single Group Best In Show
3 Points for Reserve Best In Show at a General Open Show, or Group Open Show not judged on the  Group system (effective from 1st Feb 2006).
Multi Group Placings (Please note: Puppy Group placings do not count) - 1st = 4 points, 2nd = 3 points, 3rd = 2 points and 4th = 1 point.
1 Point for Best AVNSC (i.e. AVNSC Hound, AVNSC Gundog, winner of overall Best AVNSC)
1 Point for Best Of Breed.

JW rules as follows:
JW points cannot be claimed if there are less then 3 dogs present in the class.
You must have 25 points in total.
3 points are awarded from each championship show win.
1 point is awarded for every Open Show win, or a Championship Show where CC's were not on offer for the breed.
You can only claim points if you are placed 1st in a Breed Class, such as Puppy, Graduate, Limit, Open etc.  Please note that Best Puppy, Any Variety and Any Variety Not Separately Classified classes do not count.
The dog must be between 6 and 18 months of age when claiming points.
A minimum of 3 points must be from Championship Shows
A minimum of 3 points must be from Open Shows
JW points cannot be claimed if there are less then 3 dogs present in the class.
You can claim one point for Best of Breed at an Open Show, but only if you were not able to claim a point for a 1st prize in a breed class and only where there are three or more dogs present in the breed
You can claim points for 'Special' Breed Classes i.e. Special Beginners, Special Yearling provided these classes are listed under the breed classification and the relevant number of dogs are present
You can claim points for 'Stakes' classes at a Single Breed show provided the relevant number of dogs are present

Mud cleared or have I made it worse again ;)

> Mud cleared

Indeed. Didn't realise that JW points can be gained from open shows. Hmmm.. Only a min of 3 points need to be from either type of show.. Makes a mockery really. In some areas open shows are not entered as highly as other locations, so would be easier to pick up JW's here. It would to me make more sense if it were just CH shows or all points bar 3 which have to be gained at Open shows come from CH shows.

Either way i'm not a fan of JW, and the amount of people who drag their poor pups around the large number of shows each weekend, and some on both weekend days.. Not my idea of fun for a pup i'm afraid, great if you gain the points from a small number of shows.

I think it very much depends on the breed Sue and time of year you are chasing - min of 3 per class in Gordons puppy/junior - very rare!

Totally agree regarding dragging all over the place!  Which I know of many that do!!!

> I think it very much depends on the breed Sue and time of year you are chasing

Agreed :-).. If you have a ruddy great pup and in say Goldies and you win in your classes, and you enter 3 for instance at a CH show you've got yourself lots of points.. Where as say your breed and at times mine, its a lot harder to find enough dogs entered in a class. Does all depend on your competition too, sometimes a mediocre dog may gain a JW as the other dogs are of a lower standard..

To me, other than getting stud book number, doesn't mean anything in my eyes. Its how the dog matures and grows up that is most important and if good enough will easily gain stud book number as an adult anyhow.

When JW first came out I think the number of points at Open shows were far more and it led to people running on at least 3 of their puppies so they could insure that there would be at least 3 in the class. Did not always work because sometimes it was a make the numbers up who won. I even saw a Yorkie sent into the ring in its crackers as the owner said she is rubbish and I can't be bothered, still wonder if the judge had a wicked streak because of the three sent into the ring by the same owner the judge picked the one in crackers - bet they laughed all the way home.

Sure there are many breeds when to achieve JW is nearly impossible, some of my breed have won the award but with only 19 pups registered thus far I do not think there will be any next year.

I think it very much depends on the breed Sue and time of year you are chasing - min of 3 per class in Gordons puppy/junior - very rare!

Same with Malinois. There has NEVER been a JW Malinois apart from way back when (90s) all the 4 BSDs were shown together as one breed. I'd say it would in fact be totally impossible to gain a JW with a Mali. Only way to do it would probably be to keep 3 puppies yourself, show them all and hope the same one always won LOL.

Oh LOL Nova -didn't even read your post before I wrote mine -had no idea it actually DID happen!

Sorry Sue, my fault for hijacking! Basically my boy who died in June this year, when we were chasing JW points, at about 5 shows he won Junior and Open, so 1 point for each class, but also went on to beat the Puppy and Graduate class winners and get BOB. My view is that the KC should have counted the challenge as if it was a class with 3 dogs in and awarded him another point. Then he would have got more than the 3 points that he missed the thing by, which has always bugged me. I'll stop confusing you now!