I saw an article in 'Dog World' that mentioned the name Alsatian was dropped from GSD. However I didn't see where it said why this would be done. Would anyone know why please?

The GSD league of GB has campaigned for yrs to get the name Alsation dropped as it is not nor ever has been the correct title for the GSD and is a made up name dating back to the war yrs when all things "german" were frowned on.

Kind Regards

Oh thank you very much I had no idea why there was ever 2 names for this breed.

ps. like 'Dog World' did you spelt Alsatian wrong there oops ;)

Cheers.

Is there a difference between the two or are they one and the same?

I'm probably wrong with this, and I'm sure someone will know properly if I'm on the wrong track. But I think it might be the Alsatians were of English Bred.

Same breed, I have heard all sorts of strange theories that the long coat is an Alsation and the short coat is a GSD but it is true that they are both GSD's whose name was changed during WWII

> I'm probably wrong with this, and I'm sure someone will know properly if I'm on the wrong track. But I think it might be the Alsatians were of English Bred.

No they are GSD's. The original name was alsatian wolf dog that was then changed by dropping the wolf bit as it was thought to give a bad image, does not matter what colour they are or the length of coat. There is however an english "type" which is often refered to as an Alsatian and supporters of this type have their own club. The other main type is the germanic and there is no love lost between the two lol. In other countries there are more "types" but they are still all GSD's

Kind Regards

> There is however an english "type" which is often refered to as an Alsatian and supporters of this type have their own club.

I prefer the look of this type. :)

Not being funny, but have you actually seen what this type look like?

My Germanic show types can be made to look like a so-called banana-back when stood like that but under normal circumstances they don't look like that.

The extreme English lines tend to be too short, too long, saggy backed, strung up and very windy.  Definitely not matching any breed standard I've ever read.

I usually don't get into any discussions about these things because people tend to have very fixed ideas about what they like and don't like and usually base their ideas on the dogs that they had as pets years ago, which is fine but not really much to do with the breed today.

If you want me to show you the different types Sian, PM me

Hey Paula
Thank you
I have seen the link below curtesy of Brainless, and we discussed likes, dislikes, breed standard, German 'types' etc. And personally I don't like the sloppy back types.

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html

get the name Alsatian dropped as it is not nor ever has been the correct title for the GSD and is a made up name dating back to the war yrs when all things "german" were frowned on.

I read that duing the war, with the obvious anti-german mood they were 'renamed' Alsatians as they originated from the Alsace (?) region on the france-german borders.
As Roscobabe said some of the clubs have been trying for years to get the name changed from 'German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian)' to just 'German Shepherd Dog'
Chris

Makes sense really.

Just don't tell Basil ;)

Joe public will probably still call them Alsatians though. Personally I prefer the working type with a more level topline, that sloping back down to the hindquarters looks terribly unbalanced to me, as my own breed requires a level topline, so it does rather make other options look strange to my eyes. :-)

Not me I always used to call em Alisatians, don't know why...

They always look like they struggle to walk with that sloppy back. I reckon any way.

Basil  LOL that shows your age dukedog.
Oh no not the gsd arguement again. Not the name  the differences between the look of the dogs , the feelings are so intense about this those for those against. I have heard discussions that are really vicious why is that our breed seems to have more of these arguments than any other or is it just that not knowing much about many other breeds I dont hear it.
Personaly I prefer the straighter backs and although not kc standard have always loved the longer coat.

(please I dont intend to start a row lol)
Excellent interesting link brainless

> (please I dont intend to start a row lol)

No lets not go there hey.lol
My age no, no, have you not heard of repeats. ;)

of course silly me !

lol

Personaly I prefer the straighter backs and although not kc standard have always loved the longer coat.


The length of coat is not specified in the KC standard so a long coat is OK providing it is a double one with a weatherproof guard hair forming the outer layer.

Also there is nothing in the standard that suggests the back should slope only the croup and the terms used in the standard with regards to the croupe is slightly sloping

Yes nova u r quite
right

From the 1.1.2011 the long coat (with undercoat) is going back into the SV breed standard.  The FCI have now accepted the request. 

the SV breed standard

Sorry but what is the SV breed standard? I was quoting from the KC one where as far as I know it has never been a fault, the exact wording is No hard and fast rule for length of hair.

The SV is the governing body of the GSD in Germany.  Most Germanic owners/breeders now follow their rules rather than the KC.  The SV is far more progressive than the KC from what I have read.  They were the ones who have applied to the FCI for the long coats to go back into the standard.  I have read on another forum that the KC won't add this variation to the standard here unless the breed clubs ask for it.  So whether we will see long coats at KC shows remains to be seen but Germanic people have already added long coat classes to their shows over the past 12 months.

Thank you Emily for telling me what the SV standard is however in the UK the breed will be judged against the KC standard that does not say that long hair is unacceptable anyway and as far as I can remember never has. So as far as long hair is concerned the KC standard is years ahead.

A long coat competing against a standard coat at a KC show would be lucky to be placed. It has happened but not very often. The long coat has been added as a variation to the SV standard so they only compete against their own type.  This is not happening within the KC standard.

> So whether we will see long coats at KC shows remains to be seen but Germanic people have already added long coat classes to their shows over the past 12 months.

I would think short coats win more often because they look tidier, just my though like.
However, different varieties would make a GSD show more interesting, as do the different colours available in the breed.

The KC standards do not have variations as such,a breed is a breed and the permitted colour and coat type are listed within that breed, the most common problem I have seen in the long coat  is the undercoat is either sparse or non-existent and the top coat is not dense and close lying and therefore not waterproof making the dog unsuitable for purpose - that of being a shepherd dog.

If a breed splits into two distinct types as happened with the Akita they are then listed as a separate breed and have their own standard.

In the show ring there may be classes for a particular colour or coat type but that does not apply to the GSD who seem to have split themselves anyway but not by coat more into Pastoral & Working.

I wonder why you don't see them as shepherd dogs these days, instead of collies.
They seem to be used as more as guard dogs in this country, so coat wouldn't matter so much.

I wonder why you don't see them as shepherd dogs these days, instead of collies.

As far as I know they never did do the same job if you are talking Border Collies, GSDs were primary guarding dogs not herding although you would think that because of the name.

So why is the waterproof coat so important if not in the fields looking after sheep?
Oh I see they guarded the sheep not herded.

I have taken this from the SV website.  It's been translated into English so some words have not come through right I am afraid.

Change in the racial standards of the hair style "long double coat with undercoat"

Because of the decision in the Federal Assembly in 2008 and 2009, the SV has applied to the FCI to include in the breed standard of the German shepherd dog with the hair style "long double coat with undercoat" as a distinct variety.

The FCI has now agreed to this request with effect from 1.1.2011.

This means that from 1.1.2011 German Shepherd dogs with the hair style "long double coat with undercoat"

Can participate for inspections,

Can participate in dog shows. The organizer can set up your own classes for dogs with this hair style. It is not possible to install mixed classes with stock-haired and long-stock-haired dogs,

Are approved for breeding. It should be noted that pairs are allowed only between dogs with the same hair style (stock hair coat, long pole with long hair stock hair). Matings between stock and long-haired stock-haired dogs are not allowed.

Below you will find to your further information, the amended version of the breed standard:

First coat, of this "HAIR"

Hair: The German Shepherd dog is in the Haarvarietäten stock hair and long hair Stock - bred - both with an undercoat.

Stock Hair:
The outer coat should be as tight, just harsh and firm fitting. At the top of the Lich including ear inside, just in front of legs, paws and toes, hairy on the neck a little longer and stronger. At the back of the legs, the hair extended to pre-tarsal joint and the hock, on the back of the thighs it forms moderate pants.

Longhaired:
The outer coat is long, soft and not be close fitting, according to flags on ears and legs, bushy pants and bushy tail with plume formation below. At the top of the ear, including the interior, at front of legs, paws and toes short neck longer and more hairy, almost forming a mane.  At the back of the legs, the hair extends to wrist or ankle and to the forms at the back of the legs clear pants.

2nd Disqualification

And substitute:
k) Long stock coat without undercoat

This is very interesting.

Thank you.

I think it was sensible to change the name to what it should be. The arguments between the types - well it's never good to go there , unless you have a suit of armour handy LOL.
My preference is a universal type, which would ideally fall somewhere between working line and show line, with the best attributes of both. The 'golden middle'. Some show breeders are now blending the lines and I am really looking forward to seeing the results long term. I hope to see a correct shape, as shown in the standard (using Linda Shaw's illustration). Less 'upward curve of the spine - or roach' less angulation in the hind legs, firmer straight hocks (not cow hocks). 

> I think it was sensible to change the name to what it should be. The arguments between the types - well it's never good to go there , unless you have a suit of armour handy LOL.
>

Just me boxing gloves.lol

I love a fluffy collar, too.

> The 'golden middle'. Some show breeders are now blending the lines and I am really looking forward to seeing the results long term. I hope to see a correct shape, as shown in the standard (using Linda Shaw's illustration). Less 'upward curve of the spine - or roach' less angulation in the hind legs, firmer straight hocks (not cow hocks). 

Yes I too hope to see that. In the last 20/30 yrs the shape and movement of the GSD has changed  for the worse.

Kind Regards

to Nova have you never watched the gsd actually herding sheep or cattle??? they do do it and they were bred for that purpose, as well as guarding the flock from wolves and bears. my fur kids work my cattle and also show and do well at it!

looking at that standard i think my longcoat would be able to be shown under those rules. I agree that short v long usually short would be placed and personally I would rather compete against other longcoat in the longcoat shows only I dont have a suite of amour and have put my boxing gloves away. have heard to many nasty comments and that is just as an onlooked between competitors.
Mind Dukedog Whispa says he looks very tidy thank you but wishes mum would give him a brush as he has been foraging and is  covered in burrs lol

> Mind Dukedog Whispa says he looks very tidy thank you but wishes mum would give him a brush as he has been foraging and is covered in burrs lol

Did he whisper that to you or shout down the pc at me for me cheekiness.lol

To Bettyboo, no I have not but do know they were/are used as GP sheep dogs but the method of shepherding is not the same as used in Wales and the UK and herding is not the main requirement - I was really pointing out that they were not used in the same way as collies.

Well Border collies can be smooth or rough but haven't seen smooth ones much in evidence at shows.

What we have to remember the long/er coat as would compare to my breeds coat (think double coat with ruff etc of about a couple of inches) is not the same as a extreme long coat with no undercoat, or as would be a fluffy in Akita's or Pem corgi's.  That type of coat would be far more impractical in a working capacity.

> as shown in the standard (using Linda Shaw's illustration).

have you a link for this?

Duh, mine

Yep that be the one.

I'll tell you what they use to herd with around me Quads.

haha Woof dukedog !

Are you sure your husband has gone away to work, not just as an excuse like? to get away from his Mrs cos she's gone gaga talking for the dog. ;)

you guessed !

I'm perceptive see. lol

Whatever their name, shape of back, coat length, nationality or colour I love and adore them all and my heart will always be full of GSDs (or Alsations)

same here! i love this breed and will always be a gsd to me :-) my long coats are tidy too ;-) takes alot of hard work tho LOL