http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315145/Is-pet-food-poisoning-dogs.html

Roger Meacock, however, was one vet who was happy to talk at length. He was also unashamedly in the natural diet camp: 'You only need to look at David Attenborough programmes to know that wild dogs eat carcasses. They catch live animals or  scavenge carrion; they don't attack wheat fields, they don't dig up potatoes, they don't cook, they don't add preservatives or flavour enhancers . . . if it doesn't happen in the wild we shouldn't be doing it for them.'
If it's that obvious, why the confusion? Meacock says: 'Pet-food manufacturers would have us believe dogs are not carnivores but omnivores. This deliberate misclassification flies in the face of all the scientific evidence.'

Prehistoric news for the Carnivorous Canine
Old News for Mr Tom Lonsdale...Keep it up mate you have many furry fans around the world who adore you from afar :)
Good News for the poor old souls trying to avoid the "broccoli and carrot bolognese mush"...now holding their breath in silent expectation
Bad news for Barfer Bill'hurst

Not so good news for the wild rabbit population...??

Rapturous applause from my gang.. :)

RIP Dave x

I've seen this type of article before though, and what they fail to mention is that dogs are also opportunistic, if they recognise a food they will eat it, otherwise why do they eat berries and fruits, and strip out the intestines of a kill, or eat the most disgusting fly covered cow pat they can get to before you can intercept them.  I see nothing wrong with giving dogs blended veggies to simulate what they would opportunistically eat if they got the chance.  Depending on where a dog lived, it would have different opportunities, so I personally don't believe there is a 100% one right way to barf feed, but as long as you give them a good range of fresh ingredients, they should be able to derive what they need nutritionally, which is what I base my raw feeding on. 

I didnt read it that way. I just saw the article as being in favour of a natural diet barf or rmb instead of manufactured foods.
Or am I getting confused

It doesn't mention what research they did into the dog's ancestry; epilepsy has a hereditary element which the article seems to have totally ignored.

That's exactly what I saw in it Furrie Friends. No different to the processed/manufactured food that a lot of people fill their faces with everyday.

Yes u eat healthily thereoy goes u may ward of more iinesses and not develop. Health problems

Yes it's enlightened vets talking about the benefits of a natural diet but the critical statement is

'Pet-food manufacturers would have us believe dogs are not carnivores but omnivores. This deliberate misclassification flies in the face of all the scientific evidence.'

You can sign up for the RMB newsletter on Tom Lonsdale's website for more information but basicly....Bill'hust joined the Tom Lonsdale Raw Meaty Bones campaign - The cornestones of it were that the dog is a Carnivore - Carnivores need Raw Meaty Bones for optimum health - essential for Carnivore teeth - Clean healthy teeth achieved by eating Raw Meaty Bones are essential for their overall health....other numerous health benefits naturally follow.

Then after using all Tom's Research Bill'hurst did an abrubt U-turn (some say for financial gain as there is no money to be made from natural Raw Meaty Bones) declaring the dog to be an omnivore! Thus his books became a confusing "mish mash" which in turn misled the public again - BARF Mania spewed across the planet and ultimately had dogs eating a "mush" again. Some petfood manufacturers jumping on the bandwagon of BARF Mania created products that really are no better than some of the commercial grain filled junk mentioned in the article.

I noticed IAMS have a "Natural" Version of their biscuits. IAMS conduct cruel experiments on dogs(see the PETA expose) and I want to shout at the screen every time I see that Border Collie used in the IAMS advert :(  

Is it possible for an animal to be a carnivore without being an obligate carnivore?

Some species yes, some species no. Cats can't, but dogs can, in the same way that it's possible for an omnivore to survive as a herbivore.

I just think it's odd that an animal (i.e. a dog) can be classified as a carnivore when it CAN live without meat -but then I really don't know much about such classifications. But to me omnivore makes more sense. Yes you'll get the odd cat that will try eating anything, but it's far more rare than with dogs. They quite happily eat non-meat items and ask for more, and I'm sure they will in the wild as well.

The one and only thing my dog will "mooch" for is carrots!!

>They quite happily eat non-meat items and ask for more, and I'm sure they will in the wild as well.

The fox latrines are absolutely full of damson stones at the moment, because the foxes have been gorging on the fallen fruit!

cant say this in technical terms but it may be that perfect food for a dog is all meat that doesnt mean that taste preferences cant be for non meat. I know dogs can be fed pure veggie diet and seem to do well but do we not need to look at generations of dogs fed one way or another to discover the true health benfits and costs
I still believe and ideal diet is fresh either rmb my belief preference as their main food or freshly homemade barf. I really have changed my views about manufactured food except on occasion for etra convebience ie travelling just like the odd maccy D

Remember walking with a wolf who spent most of the time picking and eating blackberries.

My own dogs have free run of the field and they eat all the fruit and veg they can get including the rose hips, as has been said dogs are opportunist feeders and will eat most things that they can swallow be it a of food of value of not, the only thing mine will not eat is raw chicken.

The daily mail had a similar article last year, nice to see more people are becoming aware. :)

Re; Dogs being carnivores, this info is taken from the sites below.

Dogs and wolves are biologically classified as carnivores. Physically they are built to be predators, with teeth and jaws capable of tearing flesh and crushing bone. They have a short digestive tract suited to digesting meat and are virtually unable to digest whole plant matter. Dogs cannot digest cellulose (plant fiber) and therefore cannot utilize the nutrients found in whole vegetables/fruits, unless the veg/fruit is pureed or broken down by other means, prior to feeding. Therefore, any sort of plant matter beyond that which is normally found partially digested in the stomachs of prey animals, can NOT be considered part of a dog/wolf "natural diet".

Without human intervention, a dog would not gain much benefit if he were to eat fruits & vegetables on his own, they would pass through his body largely unchanged. The dogs that live on vegetarian diets are PETS and only survive because they have a person who can process vegetables for the dog, provide store-bought supplements/additives & carefully plan the diet to ensure the dog consumes adequate levels of nutrients from bio-available sources.

Dentition/Teeth - Dogs have sharp molars and canines made for flesh, meat and bone, like every other carnivore. If they were omnivores like bear they would have the flat grinding molars needed to handle vegetation.

Canine Saliva - They lack the enzyme amylase, in their saliva. This is present in the saliva of omnivores and herbivores and in necessary for the proper breakdown of starches.

Digestive track - Short and compact it was designed to quickly digest and process meat and bone. Not fruits and other vegetation. The pH level of their stomach acid is also not the right level for grains and other plant material, hence why its comes out like it went it, barely digested if at all.

Hippos have been observed eating carrion during the dry season, does this make them omnivores? No this makes them a herbivore taking an opportunity to survive a rough period.

Just because dogs can survive on such a diet with a lot of human assistance, just because dogs can & do eat vegetables and fruits if offered along with meats, does not change their biological classification of carnivore.

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html
http://www.bunnieseatgrass.com/
http://www.thewholedog.org/artcarnivores.html
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/dogs-carnivores-omnivores/

There are some interesting links and posts on this thread, which has got me remembering watching a fresh lion kill when I lived in Africa.  I've got a sequence of photos, we were about six foot away in a vehicle, and it was fascinating to watch.  The first lion to get into the kill, which was a buffalo cow, did so at the back end, buffalos have very thick skin and this was obviously one of the easiest places to break through.  As well as the meat, the lions didn't seem averse to eating some of the half digested content of the gut, surprising for something we think of as a "true" carnivore I thought at the time, that was before I'd ever heard of BARF.  But watching my dogs run for the nearest cow pat, or pile of horse poo, it sort of makes sense to me now, this is a "natural" source of half digested vegetable matter that doesn't require human intervention at all.  And depending on what vegetable/fruit it is, I sometimes see no sign of it, or chunks, if they eat something like a carrot, at the other end, at the moment, the blackberries are having a rather obvious effect!  I actually prefer blending veggies than feeding my two a cow pat, so I think I'll stick with my version, chuckle.

There are all sorts of "oddities" in the animal kingdom, Chacma Baboons have the most enormous canines, they do eat meat occasionally, but it isn't a large part of their diet.  Like dogs, and hippos, and many other animals, they are opportunists. 

I remember years ago when I kept hamsters, I decided to try one of mine with a bit of cooked meat, after reading that in the wild they would eat bugs as part of their diet, and sure enough, she loved it and used to get the occasional bit after that as a treat.  I was told at the time by feeding her meat it would make her viscious, the same old wives tale you hear about feeding dogs raw meat, it never happened, she was the largest and softest hamster I ever owned, had a better recall than most dogs I see and weighed half a lb!! 

Is it possible for an animal to be a carnivore without being an obligate carnivore?

Yes...Cats are obligate carnivores. They absolutely need raw meat and bone to survive and no doubt why they are such amazing Hunters. They also differ from dogs in that they can't eat carrion. Their food needs to be fresh. Cats get an even worse deal from the pet food manufacturers when you think about it....off the top of my head I think most biscuits and chunks in jelly are about 4% "meat" if it can even be called that.... and the rest is junk and filler that their bodies can't possibly utilise.

The "Pottengers Cats" study makes interesting reading....for 10 years he studied 900 cats dividing them into Raw Fed.... and those fed a cooked diet.

The cats fed the cooked meat diet reproduced a heterogeneous strain of offspring, each kitten in a litter different in size and skeletal pattern. Health problems ranged from allergies to infections of the kidney, liver, bones and reproductive organs. By the time the third deficient generation was born, the cats were so "physiologically bankrupt" that none survived beyond six months, thus terminating the strain. Cooked meat fed cats showed much more irritability. Some females were dangerous to handle. The males, on the other hand, were docile, often unassertive and lacked sex drive or were perverted

Pregnant females aborted, about 25 percent in the first deficient generation to about 70 percent in the second generation. Deliveries were generally difficult with many females dying in labor. Kittens' mortality rate was also high because they were either stillborn or too frail to nurse.

Many females had pregnancy and infertility problems. The average weight of the kittens born of cooked meat fed mothers was 100 grams (3.4 ounces), 19 grams less than the raw meat nurtured kittens.

The raw meat fed cats were uniform in size and skeletal development from generation to generation. Over their life spans, they were resistant to infections, fleas and various other parasites and had no signs of allergies. In general, they were gregarious, friendly and predictable in their behavior patterns. They reproduced one homogeneous generation after another with the average weight of the kittens at birth being 119 grams (4.20 ounces). Miscarriages were rare and litters averaged five kittens with the mother cat nursing her young without difficulty.

I think the correct scientific classification of Carnivore is of crucial importance to the Dog because the deliberate mis-classification of omnivore allows the Giant Pet food Manufacturers to continue filling their brightly coloured bags and tins with cheap grain fillers...along with all the additives, preservatives...e numbers..that you would never eat yourself or give to your children.... that the Dog can't possibly make any use of.

When you hear of fertility problems in dogs....mothers struggling to raise their young...blowing their coats....health problems like colitis..allergies....fading puppies.....cleft pallets.....cancer....dogs dieing young....surely it must make people wonder WHY..??

For me personally..."s**t happens"...is NOT an answer...

The bigger picture of the multi-million pound conglomerates of the pharmaceutical companies and the pet food manufacturers has much more to do with their profits...and I feel.... very little to do with the health of our animals

Both my dogs are fed BARF and they get their share of fruit and veg each day too, and sometimes I have to tempt Jasper to eat his with yoghurt mixed into it, but, what really surprised me when we were picking blackberries a couple of weeks ago, Henry our collie/retriever cross was actually taking individual berries from the bushes in his mouth and eating them - Martin has always called him a fruit bat :) it was quite amusing to watch him!

Mine aren't fed BARF but have added the small berries at the end of our road to their new fruit scavenging regime. Sometimes I almost miss London....

Dogs are undoubtedly scavengers and opportunists but they belong to the Carnivore Family...... and are not omnivores.

Below is Tom Lonsdale's website for anyone who is interested in the difference between BARF and a RAW Meaty Bones Diet.

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

>Dogs are undoubtedly scavengers and opportunists but they belong to the Carnivore Family...... and are not omnivores.

Giant Pandas are carnivores as well, but they eat bamboo.

> The "Pottengers Cats" study makes interesting reading....for 10 years he studied 900 cats dividing them into Raw Fed.... and those fed a cooked diet.
>
> The cats fed the cooked meat diet reproduced a heterogeneous strain of offspring, each kitten in a litter different in size and skeletal pattern. Health problems ranged from allergies to infections of the kidney, liver, bones and reproductive organs. By the time the third deficient generation was born, the cats were so "physiologically bankrupt" that none survived beyond six months, thus terminating the strain. Cooked meat fed cats showed much more irritability. Some females were dangerous to handle. The males, on the other hand, were docile, often unassertive and lacked sex drive or were perverted
>
> Pregnant females aborted, about 25 percent in the first deficient generation to about 70 percent in the second generation. Deliveries were generally difficult with many females dying in labor. Kittens' mortality rate was also high because they were either stillborn or too frail to nurse.
>
> Many females had pregnancy and infertility problems. The average weight of the kittens born of cooked meat fed mothers was 100 grams (3.4 ounces), 19 grams less than the raw meat nurtured kittens.
>
> The raw meat fed cats were uniform in size and skeletal development from generation to generation. Over their life spans, they were resistant to infections, fleas and various other parasites and had no signs of allergies. In general, they were gregarious, friendly and predictable in their behavior patterns. They reproduced one homogeneous generation after another with the average weight of the kittens at birth being 119 grams (4.20 ounces). Miscarriages were rare and litters averaged five kittens with the mother cat nursing her young without difficulty.
>
> I think the correct scientific classification of Carnivore is of crucial importance to the Dog because the deliberate mis-classification of omnivore allows the Giant Pet food Manufacturers to continue filling their brightly coloured bags and tins with cheap grain fillers...along with all the additives, preservatives...e numbers..that you would never eat yourself or give to your children.... that the Dog can't possibly make any use of.
>
> When you hear of fertility problems in dogs....mothers struggling to raise their young...blowing their coats....health problems like colitis..allergies....fading puppies.....cleft pallets.....cancer....dogs dieing young....surely it must make people wonder WHY..??
>
> For me personally..."s**t happens"...is NOT an answer...
>
> The bigger picture of the multi-million pound conglomerates of the pharmaceutical companies and the pet food manufacturers has much more to do with their profits...and I feel.... very little to do with the health of our animals

Heck!  Remind me never to feed my Munsters on a  raw diet then.   After having 3 litters of 14 from one mating each time, I couldn't cope with extra fertility if I swapped them from a commercial diet to raw - imagine the litter sizes I would get then, it would be bordering on cruelty to raise litters from these 'supposed' super duper fertility rates on raw.  

Ditto the cats,  Jack & Hope have already proved too fertile for me between them.   Ooooohhhh  bad owner again, feeding cooked fish, catfood & Royal Canin complete!

Giant Pandas are carnivores as well, but they eat bamboo.

Then one would need to ask why.....and take a look at the decimation of its natural habitat and roaming territory......in the name of so called progress.....and why it is currently on the WWF endangered species list. The Giant Panda has to spend 16 hours of it's day eating food that it is deriving very little nutritional benefit from.

Source Wikipedia -Despite its taxonomic classification as a carnivoran, the Giant Panda has a diet that is primarily herbivorous, which consists almost exclusively of bamboo. However, the Giant Panda still has the digestive system of a carnivore, as well as carnivore-specific genes, and thus derives little energy and little protein from consumption of bamboo. Its ability to digest cellulose is ascribed to the microbes in its gut. The average Giant Panda eats as much as 9 to 14 kg (20 to 30 pounds) of bamboo shoots a day. Because the Giant Panda consumes a diet low in nutrition, it is important for it to keep its digestive tract full. The limited energy input imposed on it by its diet has affected the panda's behavior. The Giant Panda tends to limit its social interactions and avoids steeply sloping terrain in order to limit its energy expenditures.

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowners/whynotBARF.php

>>Giant Pandas are carnivores as well, but they eat bamboo.
>Then one would need to ask why.....

There was a scientific nature programme that claimed it was because they've become too bulky and slow to hunt successfully, but that if they come across any carcase to scavenge they'll gobble it down; one was filmed doing just that. It's not a recent dietary change; the Chinese have a very long recorded history which includes details of the animals.

>The cats fed the cooked meat diet reproduced a heterogeneous strain of offspring, each kitten in a litter different in size and skeletal pattern. Health problems ranged from allergies to infections of the kidney, liver, bones and reproductive organs. By the time the third deficient generation was born, the cats were so "physiologically bankrupt" that none survived beyond six months, thus terminating the strain. Cooked meat fed cats showed much more irritability. Some females were dangerous to handle. The males, on the other hand, were docile, often unassertive and lacked sex drive or were perverted

>Pregnant females aborted, about 25 percent in the first deficient generation to about 70 percent in the second generation. Deliveries were generally difficult with many females dying in labor. Kittens' mortality rate was also high because they were either stillborn or too frail to nurse.

I bet the Cats Protection wishes that were true, instead of being inundated every year by hundreds and hundreds of unwanted kittens from commercially fed domestic pet cats. Generation after generation of being fed cooked, tinned food has done nothing to reduce fecundity, let alone a mere three!

> The cats fed the cooked meat diet reproduced a heterogeneous strain of offspring, each kitten in a litter different in size and skeletal pattern. Health problems ranged from allergies to infections of the kidney, liver, bones and reproductive organs. By the time the third deficient generation was born, the cats were so "physiologically bankrupt" that none survived beyond six months, thus terminating the strain. Cooked meat fed cats showed much more irritability. Some females were dangerous to handle. The males, on the other hand, were docile, often unassertive and lacked sex drive or were perverted
>
>

*snort*   Jack is 'perverted' & 'lacks sex drive', I wonder if his 15 offspring know that?

I've read this again without quick scanning as I usually do.  What a complete & utter load of balony.  I wonder about these so-called authors, just how many litters of puppies & kittens they've actually raised to base their studies on.    

> The cats fed the cooked meat diet reproduced a heterogeneous strain of offspring, each kitten in a litter different in size and skeletal pattern. Health problems ranged from allergies to infections of the kidney, liver, bones and reproductive organs. By the time the third deficient generation was born, the cats were so "physiologically bankrupt" that none survived beyond six months,

Call me thick (please don't) but, if I am reading this correctly,cats should have been on the brink of extinction within a year of introduction of processed (cooked) cat food

>By the time the third deficient generation was born, the cats were so "physiologically bankrupt" that none survived beyond six months,

mating unhealthy animals to each other for 3 generations, its not surprising that eventually offspring did not survive.. what a horrible & cruel way to test a theory :-( 

My dog may well be a carnivore but that doesn't stop her pinching raspberries off the bushes where we walk her - maybe its the meat in any bugs in the rasps she is after :-D

As for the cat study sounds like a lot of old tosh to me! My cats don't eat raw meat and are perfectly healthy!

Ooooohhhh  bad owner again, feeding cooked fish, catfood & Royal Canin

I have been loving and homing rescue animals for over 50 years, at least 4 at a time and occasionally 6 or 7 dogs together. All have been fed on the best commercial food that I could afford at the time, they now have CSJ. Does this make me a bad owner?
My daughter is vegetarian, perhaps I am a bad mother as well.
I think we all do our best for our animals but I refuse to feel guilty because I feed a commercial food as opposed to raw. I appreciate that raw feeders would not change their way of feeding and have all the research papers to prove that in their opinion their way is best, however we all do what we can and I know without doubt that my dogs do not suffer because of the food they receive and have good coats, energy and health.

Call me thick (please don't) but, if I am reading this correctly,cats should have been on the brink of extinction within a year of introduction of processed (cooked) cat food

Indeed !! Let's see. I've been breeding cats for a total of 21 years. I have had roughly 60 litters (would have to check my record book to remember the exact amount). I have been feeding nothing but commercial cat food for 20 of those years, and 50/50 commercial and raw for one year only. I wonder how I managed to get all those litters?? And my foundation queen in one of my breeds is currently 17 years and 4 months old, and I have 6 generations of home bred cats descended from her. In my other breed there have been 7 generations of my own breeding. But then again I select breeding cats on health and temperament as well as looks -not according to what they are fed on.

Wish my cats could be convinced to eat raw yes they will play with it bu tnever actually eat anything to speak about. Back to the old whiskas every time. They wont even really eat fish carnivores or not no real meat fior them
Well they will give the cooked sunday joint ago if I am not careful lol

my cats (8,all neutered moggies)are also fed both raw and tinned/ dried,but thats only recently,ive had cats for over 40 years,and they all seemed healthy enough on tinned and dried food.However,Im now convinced raw is the way to go,and since I began feeding the dogs raw(,and the cats started pinching it,)I put out a big plate of minced tripe,minced beef,or whatever(amusing watching them with a chicken wing,keeps em amused for ages!)in the morning and it disapears like ice in the sun!while the kitecat sits there waiting for the flies .I would be interested to see if the cats(as well as the dogs)will be any healthier in old age for the raw food,maybe less arthritis.

I bet the Cats Protection wishes that were true, instead of being inundated every year by hundreds and hundreds of unwanted kittens from commercially fed domestic pet cats. Generation after generation of being fed cooked, tinned food has done nothing to reduce fecundity, let alone a mere three!

I reckon the cats you speak of probably take a few mouthfuls of brightly coloured kibble or "fabricated meat chunks"...... or whatever has been put down in the kitchen...... and then as soon as it's dark.......are off out the catflap and out hunting a proper dinner for themselves! No doubt hunting, killing and eating the rodent population who are partially to blame for yet another unneccessay annual/bi-annual vaccine :)

>I reckon the cats you speak of probably take a few mouthfuls of brightly coloured kibble or "fabricated meat chunks"...... or whatever has been put down in the kitchen......

That would only be a guess, so can't be taken as truth. People who've kept generations of cats as purely indoor cats just don't have the problems described in that peculiar article.

>and then as soon as it's dark.......are off out the catflap and out hunting a proper dinner for themselves!

Not if the owners are the responsible type who keep their cats safe indoors at night. Cats outside at night are more likely to end up as roadkill!

I've got a mixture of cats ranging from pedigree Maine Coons....to moggies.... to the "wildy ones" who have taken up residence in the outbuildings (one huge black cat has been round here for at least 12 years that I know of...and I figure that the old guy maybe appreciates a chicken wing now and again)  Having converted everyone to raw about 5 years ago its my experience that everyone is definitely healthier.

One of my Maine Coon Girlys was weaned onto raw chicken mince by her breeder....her mother was a raw fed cat....and she will only eat raw. She is an absolute delight..a joy to have around and her coat is shining, full and tangle free.

One of my other Maine Coon girlys was weaned onto James W by her breeder and for the longest time she was a complete "biscuit-head" She was bad-tempered and her coat was extremely dry...compared to my other purrdy cats. It has been a long slow process to wean her off the kibble. She used to fly into a rage...running through the house bashing all the others....if I tried to make her go cold turkey. I had to gradually withdraw the biscuits and introduced her first to Nature's Menu cat (which is 70% meat) Then I gave her tinned Tuna in springwater and then tried her with raw chicken mince with the springwater from the tuna drizzled over it. It has taken me a long while but she is now much more easy going....and her coat is now much sleeker and shinier so to me it's worth going the extra mile

The pet food manufacturers recognise that there is a problem with kibble fed cats...not least of which is urinary tract problems and stones. Thats the reason we are now seeing "new and improved" versions with yet more "healthy ingredients" like cranberry....added to their otherwise mostly grain-filled rubbish.

People who've kept generations of cats as purely indoor cats just don't have the problems described in that peculiar article.

I think there were certain flaws in the Pottengers cat study...but it remains the largest study of its kind....and I think the general premise of raw food (and no grains) promoting health is still valid today.

I'm not certain that it's fair or natural to keep cats as purely indoor cats...?? Mine have free run of the house but they also have their own garden/jungle (!) protected by Purr-fect Fence. You could only get it from America at the time...but I think its available from UK suppliers now. Its brilliant stuff...easy to erect...keeps them safe....whilst allowing them their freedom to be a cat :) 

I have been loving and homing rescue animals for over 50 years, at least 4 at a time and occasionally 6 or 7 dogs together. All have been fed on the best commercial food that I could afford at the time, they now have CSJ. Does this make me a bad owner?

This is what makes me so sad about the "corporate machine" The huge pet food manufacturers and the drug companies use fear and guilt to prey on the unsuspecting pet owner. After all we are a huge, growing and captive market for them and their profits. I'm probably really fortunate in that I don't know anyone who doesn't adore their animals....I only know kind-hearted people like you....who would do whatever it takes to keep their pets healthy and live a long and happy life.

My daughter is vegetarian, perhaps I am a bad mother as well.

You're no more of a bad parent than I am.....for choosing to be vegetarian myself.....but allowing my kids to eat what they choose. The point is our animals don't have a choice and they rely on our decisions. And our decisions are based on placing all our trust in the "huge corporate machine" and believing they know best...

Look up the pet food recalls....you would think that the recalls would only have involved the cheap end of the market..?? Not true...they involve lots of big names from the cheapest to the most expensive brands you can buy. They are all interlinked...and they are all sourcing the cheapest rubbish they can lay their hands on to enhance profits... :(

> The pet food manufacturers recognise that there is a problem with kibble fed cats...not least of which is urinary tract problems and stones.

What about cats fed on wet food - that is not a raw diet and does not have the same links to urinary tract problems?
The 2 moggies my sister & I had when growing up ate tinned cat food. One sadly had to be PTS at 16yrs old due to cancer, prior to that she never had a single days illness.
The other moggie got killed on the road at a very healthy & spritely 14 yrs old, prior to that she also never had a sinlge days illness (she did need extensive vet treatment after being attacked by dogs but was never ill).
Both cats were kept in at night and never supplimented their diet by eating animals in the day, they did catch the odd bird in the garden, but never ate it.

My current moggie is 6 years old, she is fed wed food pouches, she also has never had a single days illness in her life and she has a beatufull, long coat. She is allowed in the garden during the day and will occasionally 'suppliment' her diet with a wasp (), moth or butterfly. But the volume of these things she eats could not consitute a partially raw diet ;)

>My current moggie is 6 years old, she is fed wed food pouches, she also has never had a single days illness in her life and she has a beatufull, long coat. She is allowed in the garden during the day and will occasionally 'suppliment' her diet with a wasp (), moth or butterfly. But the volume of these things she eats could not consitute a partially raw diet

That is the norm. Most cats fed a commercial diet, especially those fed wet food, live long (well int their teens), very healthy lives, and to suggest that their owners are doing them wrong is wicked, because it's so palpably untrue.

>The huge pet food manufacturers and the drug companies use fear and guilt to prey on the unsuspecting pet owner.

And that is exactly what you're doing yourself, FreedomofSpirit.

What about cats fed on wet food - that is not a raw diet and does not have the same links to urinary tract problems?
The 2 moggies my sister & I had when growing up ate tinned cat food. One sadly had to be PTS at 16yrs old due to cancer, prior to that she never had a single days illness.

I think its becoming a modern day problem that is effecting and is going to effect....future generations....?? Having had moggies and dogs in my life for close on 50 years (note to self - only have a birthday every 10 years from now on :) ) I didn't even used to give diet and vaccinations a second thought! My moggies came from the "lady down the road" and my dogs came from the farmer in the next village along. Unregistered and I presume unvaccinated... and bar accidents they never had to see a vet either

I have only become aware of.....and witnessed..... growing health problems since buying Pedigree animals. I don't know why that is....and I don't know if its peculiar to pedigree animals...?? I wonder if it may be because we receive information from their breeders......we study and take advice about current veterinary guide-lines to do with vaccination and worming..we buy the most expensive "complete and balanced" dried diets we can afford....we rush our precious little charges to the vets if they so much as sniffle.....and so starts the process of over-vaccination...over worming....overuse of chemical flea treatments...overuse of antibiotics and corticosteroids.....and poor nutrition in the form of kibbles   

Personally I think any step away from dried foods/kibble/biscuits.... and onto "wet food" has got to be better for long term health. I think the dried diets are a major major health concern :(

And then any inclusion of fresh lightly cooked meat and fish is going to bring benefits....and any inclusion of Raw meaty bones or mince..... (and wasps..! LOL :) )

>The huge pet food manufacturers and the drug companies use fear and guilt to prey on the unsuspecting pet owner.
And that is exactly what you're doing yourself, FreedomofSpirit.

I'm not sure I understand your comment...and can only assume that you are misinterpreting or misreading my intentions...?? I don't see how advocating an inexpensive return to natural feeding and making people aware of the dangers and side effects of over-vaccination...can be misconstrued as using fear and guilt to prey on the unsuspecting pet owner...??

I have no vested interests whatsoever in veterinary drug companies or pet food manufacturers...and only a genuine concern....along with thousands of others (see Canine Health Concern) about the continued good health of our pets....

>I think there were certain flaws in the Pottengers cat study...but it remains the largest study of its kind....

Very many, I would think, seeing that the results are not mirrored in 'real life'!

>>>The huge pet food manufacturers and the drug companies use fear and guilt to prey on the unsuspecting pet owner.
>>And that is exactly what you're doing yourself, FreedomofSpirit.
>I'm not sure I understand your comment

How can you not understand that you're telling people who feed their, to all intents and purposes totally healthy and with no detectable ill-health, animals with commercial food that they're directly causing them illness? That's deliberately causing guilt and fear.

>Look up the pet food recalls....you would think that the recalls would only have involved the cheap end of the market..?? Not true...they involve lots of big names from the cheapest to the most expensive brands you can buy.

Which pet foods have been recalled in the UK?