Hi,

Love this site, a mine of information! I've been lurking on here for a good couple of years but only just registered; nice to meet you all :o)

Ok, we have a medium sized gundog bitch who has an excellent working pedigree and we, after a lot of thought, have decided to breed from her just once. We have bred Cavaliers successfully before in the past so know, as much as anyone can, what the pitfalls are!

Anyway she came into season in January and we found her a nice stud who is on the short size (she is on the tall size) specifically to try to downsize the pups a little bit and duly took her for her mating. The stud owner told us he preferred the bitches to go to him at 9 days... although we felt this was too early for her, we liked the stud so much we decided to go with this knowing she wouldn't stand if she wasn't ready.
Nothing happened that day (surprise, surprise) she wasn't ready so we repeated the next day with the same results. He offered to keep her for a few days and each night he rang and said nothing had happened until the 14th day when he said they mated and tied. We went to pick her up and we sorted out the agreement... if no pups then a free repeat. He told us he usually gets a photo of the mating but hadn't been able to because his phone died on him whilst he was holding them during the 40 minute tie.

The result wasn't entirely unexpected for me; no puppies.

Eight months later and she is in season again. This time I have been using the ovulation pads (which on day 10, yesterday) showed a distinct change of colour. She was also flirting with our choc lab bitch and the discharge had slowed and had turned to straw colour.
We also had a progesterone blood test done at the vets on Wed. (day 9) which should have come back yesterday but, due to a lab (or vet??) mix up, didn't get phoned through until today day 11). This showed that on Wednesday morning her level was 6.8 and after talking to the vet he said that meant she should have ovulated either yesterday (as the pads had shown) or today. We did not repeat it as he said there would be no point as the test might not get back until Monday, which would just show she had ovulated already.
This afternoon we took her back to the stud. This time she was ready and willing straight away and was flirting with him. He bounded out of his kennel and was very excited by her.
Three hours later and still no mating... he tried and tried but just couldn't manage to get it in (sorry... blush...).
The stud owner doesn't like helping them and prefers to wait until it 'happens naturally'. My bitch is getting tired and so is his dog. The studs friend appears who is extremely experienced (some gundog English team winner breeder??) and he sees them together and reckons the stud popped his cork right at the beginning before he even got to her... the flooring was very wet because of the dreadful rain we have had, so we can't say whether this was true or not.
I have brought her home and have to take her back tomorrow as we should have until Monday'ish to get this sorted. I am not happy that this is going to work. His stud has had several litters of pups to his name and the breeder himself has got a litter of 12 from him (so cute) atm. The mother of them is, tellingly, a very small bitch also.

So any ideas please would be great... I would say our bitch is at the highest end of normal range height for a bitch and his stud is the lowest end of the normal size for a dog. Trying not to be rude here but I would say when he is trying to get it in, it is a good couple of inches down from where it should be.. she has been bopping down to try and accommodate him! I would be willing to try and get her another stud but it's very short notice now so don't hold out much luck; I also really like this dog!!! :o(

Any info would be gratefully appreciated on sizing as I haven't been able to find any threads anywhere where this has been mentioned.

Thank you sooo much!!

I can understand you wanting to downsize, but don't expect the pups to be all in the middle.You will probably get some large ones like mum, and some small ones like dad. Personally I would have gone for a dog that was medium height.

I am not happy that the stud dog owner is unwilling to help hold the dog or bitch. Sometimes this is needed. In fact, I have almost always had to hold the bitch at first, and ocassionally help the dog in. Have you thought of holding the bitch in one place and having something for the dog to stand on?

Hi and thanks for that... yes you are quite right I should have gone for a stud slightly bigger than him. I suppose I thought that it would help bring the overall size down a little, eventually, for her offspring. If it doesn't work this time then I will obviously change the stud next time.

I did ask him if he wanted me to hold her while he helped the dog but he said 'no, it'll be fine' and made it quite clear he thought it would happen on its own. My husband says as we paid for the stud then we should have a say in what happens but although he is a really nice man he seems pretty stubborn about it all.
I think I am just going to have to be firm with him and insist we try him standing on something; it's a flippin' nuisance though!!

Thanks again!

Well I've gone down the route of using phone books for little dogs :) but for a big dog, you can usually make use of the landscape outside. A small hill or similar and have the dog and the bitch positioned so that it works the best way. Certainly some dogs most definitely will need a helping hand, especially at times like this.

Of course, it could be that this particular dog is put off by being handled -it does happen, in which case it would explain the owner's reluctance. But you'd think he'd want to try everything possible (as long as it didn't upset either dog or bitch). A month ago I spent two days hundreds of miles away from home trying to get a reluctant dog to mate my bitch and his handler tried everything we could think of, we even phoned my mentor and asked for suggestions, before we gave up and went home without a mating having taken place.  That's what I'd expect most stud dog owners to do; want to try all possibilities.

>you can usually make use of the landscape outside

My boy is slightly on the short side and we have a nice slope in the back garden which is great for this purpose !!

Id look for another stud dog as an undersized dog used on an oversized bitch will not fix the size issue, id choose the best representation of the breed or best worker depending on what you want to achieve and use him otherwise you will get a mixed bag and in future generations it could show up again.

Or if you have got your heart set on using him id ask the stud owner to lend a helping hand, I wouldn't leave a bitch either as id want to see the mating takes place and with the dog I wanted.

I definitely wouldn't choose a small stud dog for a large bitch, the pups will probably be either too big or too small. 
Nor would I be happy to pay a stud fee if I hadn't seen my bitch mated or leave my bitch with a stud dog owner who doesn't control the mating.

If his dog isn't able to do it on his own then the stud dog owner should be helping.  I use cushions, blankets anything if there is a bit of a height difference to make things easier.

I know lots of gun dog breeders who leave their girls with stud owners for a few days, it seems pretty normal practice but it's certainly not something I undertook lightly.
He is a nice man who's dogs are very happy working dogs and very well looked after. He is always with them whilst they are together and never leaves them to get on with it but he just doesn't do hands on (ie assist the entry) for whatever reason. He took her for twice daily walks within a secure field, during the 3 days he had her with him in January, something not generally done and asked no fee for her keep whilst there.

The reason we chose this dog was mainly because he is a lovely, gentle dog and his pedigree is second to none within the working dog field. He has experience and has sired some fantastic puppies. In no way were we worried about her otherwise we wouldn't have left her with him and as I said before he rang us every day to let us know how she was and keep us up to date!
I genuinely believed his stud had mated with her at the time (and maybe he did and she missed, we will never know I guess) and with the signed agreement of a second free mating if required, I felt a fee was applicable.

Thank you for your suggestions! I am taking her again in the morning and will suggest to him again that it might be worth heightening him a little... hopefully the weather will be better as well (it's been pouring all day) and they will be able to run in the garden as that will lend itself to more stability for them; it wasn't easy for them on a tiled kennel floor even with the bedding that had been laid down for them to help with the grip.

If it doesn't work this time then I will try to find a similar calibre stud that is a little larger for next time.

I'll let you know how we get on and thanks again x

Similar in my breed, having the bitch stay with the stud.

Chances are she wasn't yet so on the boil for him to want to make extra effort, and his mounting was more to test the waters as to her co-operation.

If he is an experienced stud and they are free to choose the mating ground or encouraged to a suitable spot (keeping a lead on the bitch and leaving dog free works here).

I had a similar issue with a  stud and bitch for different reasons, he was actually about same height as her as she is a bigger girl and he on the smaller side of standard.

She unfortunately had strange ideas about being dominated and wanted to play the dogs part.

When the dog was trying to mate she would thrust like a male, making the required contact impossible.

As we had failed on the previous season I had the dog stay with me and spent several days on my knees handling the bitch. 

This was done with holding her and fanning my hands under her belly in the groin around her vulva, and when the dog came to mount ensuring it was in the right position for him to enter. 

Males in our breed do not often take well to being handled themselves, but helping by making sure the bitches position is helpful is acceptable to most.

This does of course mean the male will be right in your face, or as in one mating your other arm may be locked in with the pair ;)

like others have said about finding a some raised ground, ive just helped with a mateing the stud dog was 1 i bred 2years ago ,the bitch that came to him was on the large side and boy alot smaller the only problem we hit was once he got in (sorry) he couldnt get his leg round on his own i had to help him ,this was his 1st mateing and the bitches for that matter ,i was very serprised he managed it to be honest! good luck! x ps these dogs are medium gundogs so its possible x

he couldnt get his leg round on his own

Hi  white  lilly, when l was still breeding, l  always had to help the dog to turn. In my breed (Boxers), it was considered the normal thing to do.

Although normal, a dog does not have to turn.

I am a firm believer in as natural as possible but it doesnt hurt to assist with ground levels, as long as the physicalities are not 'messed with'.

ive never had to do this before lol that breed and this breed dont normalyhave that problem unless boy smaller and hes tring to turn :) x

Although normal, a dog does not have to turn.

Hi Lexy, On reflection, it was something that l just "did". Whenever l had taken a bitch to be mated, the Stud dog owner had always helped the dog turn, and l suppose, that l just copied what they did, when l later had bitches coming to my dogs. I was also a firm believer in a natural as possible mating. I always liked the dogs and bitches to initially run and play together, in order for courting and flirting to take place. This also told me how near or far a bitch was to a successful mating. Having said that, once the dog had entered the bitch, and had got to the ejaculating stage,  l expected the bitches owner to hold the bitches collar and l would stand behind the dog to help when he wanted to turn. I was paranoid LOL, that a bitch would try to run away when tied, and cause my dog a serious injury.

> Although normal, a dog does not have to turn.
>
> Hi Lexy, On reflection, it was something that l just "did". Whenever l had taken a bitch to be mated, the Stud dog owner had always helped the dog turn, and l suppose, that l just copied what they did, when l later had bitches coming to my dogs. I was also a firm believer in a natural as possible mating. I always liked the dogs and bitches to initially run and play together, in order for courting and flirting to take place. This also told me how near or far a bitch was to a successful mating. Having said that, once the dog had entered the bitch, and had got to the ejaculating stage,  l expected the bitches owner to hold the bitches collar and l would stand behind the dog to help when he wanted to turn. I was paranoid LOL, that a bitch would try to run away when tied, and cause my dog a serious injury.

Oh yes deffinately...I just mean not to mess about with the dog or bitch & make them do the job. Some, by what I hear, sometimes are to full on & it's not what I believe in.

any news?

Hi,

I am so sorry I didn't get back on to let you know how the second day went but a few days after the breeding a family member became  very ill and sadly passed away, so this overshadowed my worry about this!

We also then found a lump on our chocolate labs foot. I thought it was an abscess and took her straight to the vet only to be told that they thought it was a tumour!! After finding suspicious cells they did an op and sent it off for testing as they suspected a mast cell tumour :o(
After a few days of worry and upset we got the brilliant news that it was actually an overgrowth of capillaries, something this particular vet hadn't seen before. We are still changing the dressing for her every 3 days and are using Manuka honey which utilizes the natural antibiotics from the tea tree tree (??) that the bees in that area feed from. They use it in hospitals apparently and I managed to get some medical grade honey online. It's worked a treat and her wound is almost healed now thankfully. If anyone wants to know where to get it from just ask, it really is fantastic stuff! Luckily we have them insured so only £60 paid!!

Anyway about Luna...we went to the stud again, let them run together in the back garden whilst watching of course. They played, she flirted and within a few seconds they were doing the deed. No problems whatsoever! I can only think the stud knew she wasn't quite ready the day before and I was just panicking because she had missed the last time!

They had a wonderful tie (no crying out or fuss from Luna) of almost 30 minutes with us both holding their respective heads. During this time they both laid down at the same time, they licked each others noses (don't know how they managed it still tied, but they did) and then they went to sleep in the Autumn sun still tied together...no kidding it was so sweet to see! The stud owner said it had never happened before. Then they woke up and a few seconds later they parted and that was that! I took her back the next day but after a sniff at her rear end the stud wasn't interested... bang went the romance of what happened the day before lol. The stud said he thought the dog could smell she had been fertilised and as she had ovulated (we had tested) 3 days before, we decided to leave it at that.

A couple of weeks later she started being sick in the mornings and she is now at day 60 and huge with pups who are moving nicely and whose heartbeats are nice and healthy.

We have everything ready, whelping box which she loves thankfully, full whelping kit, heat pad, heat lamp, huge roll of pet bed cut into right size pieces, digital room thermometer for box, 200 puppy pee pads, paper roll for her to dig with and a very fed up but contented girl. I have taken her to the vet who looked her over and advised against an xray as 'they're often wrong so not much point doing it'. He feels that if for instance they tell you there are 6 pups and 6 are duly born there is a chance that one has been retained that you didn't know about. He feels this can make things worse. He says she is in a perfect condition so there should be no problems but to ring any-time if we feel worried.
We will be having them docked the day after they are born by our vet as we have several guns wanting to buy them including the stud owner who wants to see them as well. Our vet is coming to the house to do it, £10 a pup, so he will be able to make sure mum and babies are all well. I won't be watching as I don't think I could, but my hubby has said he will do it for me, bless him! This is the one problem with breeding sporting dogs... everyone wanting one has stipulated they want it docked. We will only take the very ends off but it's still not nice is it! :o(

Mum's temperature has gone down a bit today, the pups dropped a few days ago and she has started losing her plug. She has been panting a little  so hopefully it won't be too much longer for her as she's pretty fed up as she can't get comfortable now!!
She's following me around all the time and I've slept downstairs on the sofa for a couple of nights with her and will do so until a week or so after she has had the pups. It seems that over 90% of pups are born at 63 days post ovulation which would be tomorrow so getting very excited now as can't wait to see the little darlings. Knowing my luck she'll be one of the 10% that doesn't lol.The only bad thing so far is that we live in the country and have 14" of snow outside so am really keeping everything crossed that we don't have to make an emergency trip to the vets during labour... sadly the weather is one thing we can't control :o(

Anyway I wanted to say a huge thank you for your advice earlier!!I will let you know how we get on as after  reading some other people's posts, very few people asking about whelping issues seem to come back with an outcome and I always feel disappointed that they don't!

Hugs and thanks again to you all x

what a wonderful story - the mating in the autumn sun ! loved it x

Congratulations good luck

sorry for the loss of your relative but what wonderful ending after all your worry. Hope the birth goes well

this post is old i think her pups would have gone to new homes now ;0) if i remember her girl had 9 pups :)
xxxx

haha omly looked last date missed her post date silly me x