Hoping you experienced people out there can give me some advice.

Our 7 pups were 2 weeks old last Saturday (16 days old). All are doing well despite mum having colitis. She has been on a bland diet for the past 4 - 5 days and although there is some improvement we aren't back to normal yet.

for the last couple of days I've felt that her milk production is suffering as pups are crying and unsettled and are really going mad whenever she goes into the box. Poor mum!! So today I defrosted some raw beef mince I had in the freezer for weaning. I gave each pup a little amount which they devoured, followed by some Nutrolac. They all acted as if they were starving!!!

We had a pretty fruitless visit to the vets - to be honest I'm fuming!! Young vet, who gave pups a cursory examination (felt stomachs/checked for cleft palates) and then checked mum again, only to suggest that she doesn't want to give any antibiotics and to go home and supplement pups as well as keep up with the bland diet (rice/white fish or boiled potatoes with skins (mashed)/white fish). I can't go out until later for more supplies as I'm here alone. I'm so mad because no temperatures were taken & what she told me I could have worked out for myself!

Vet suggested pups were way too young to start weaning... what are your opinions? I seem to remember starting weaning about this stage with our last litter.

Mum is actually pretty good, although we don't have her colitis under control yet. Poor thing, she normally has a rock solid stomach...

So where shall I start? Is it worth starting bottle feeding at this point, or should I try them with some milk in a saucer? Earlier I would get a pup sucking on a finger & syringed milk in while they were sucking. Are they too young to lap? Pups are all quite a good size, and no upset tums as yet! I could go and buy another bottle (already have one) but very much doubt they would accept it so don't know if I'd be wasting my money.

Also, someone mentioned on here a while back the correct temperature for feeding milk? Pups will be feeding from mum also. And is there any information out there to help me know how much they should be drinking?

Will take all suggestions on board, just want a more settled bunch of pups right now...

Thanks in advance
Tanya

I have a litter of 11 at the mo and started weaning them on Thursday at 17 days. They took to it right away and are now on three meals a day and its certainly helping Mum.

Thanks for that, I was sure they weren't too young... will see if they can lap the Nutrolac up later & try them again on solids tomorrow.

Sometimes the poor mum's need all the help they can get... hope your babies are doing well.

Tanya

Hi  itsadogslife,

Several years ago now, l was asked to trial Pedigree Weaning Porridge.....before it came onto the Market, and l am sure that it was meant for puppies from 2 weeks of age. I seem to remember that you could make it thinner or thicker to suit the puppies age. I think that it also had a probiotic in it, so it may suit your girl too.

It is more likely that they are ready to start on supplementary feeding.  I usually start mien at about 18 days unless weight gain or fretfulness indicates to try a little earlier.

In fact I have started them as soon as the eyes were open when I felt the weight gain was levelling off instead of increasing.

I start with a tiny amount of the puppy food soaked for a couple of hours, mashed and added to 1/4 pint of puppy milk formula to make a thin gruel.  If your going to be feeding a more whole-food/natural diet you may like to start with scraped beef.  Use a serrated knife and scrape it across a piece of beefsteak and roll the pulp into small balls.

The take each puppy and give a little on the end of a plastic baby spoon, then allow to try to eat from a flat saucer or smallest Pyrex lid.  I will fit this lid into a bowl to raise it up so that pups can get their mouths in it without walking in it.

> will see if they can lap the Nutrolac up later & try them again on solids tomorrow.
>

I find on straight milk they will choke on it, it is best to mix the soaked and mashed food into it to make it thicker.  Then I gradulaly add more soaked puppy food to make a thicker and thicker mush as the weeks go on.

I would keep doing what you are doing.  What's the alternative?  Letting the babies go hungry?  I don't think so.  I use lean, finely minced steak and pour a small amount of boiling water on it then work it into a mush with my fingers.  Then give very small bits to the individual babies.  It's always worked for me in the past.  Fingers crossed that little people are OK :-)

Thanks for the replies

Feeding the puppies by letting them suck my little finger and then dripping milk from a syringe worked a treat! Trouble is, they were sucking so hard practically my whole little finger was being consumed!! Just don't know how much they should be drinking? Each syringe was approx 2 ml. Pups are approx 2.5 - 3 lb in weight.

We had success this afternoon with the raw beef, i'll leave it until tomorrow now before introducing another solid feed.

Obviously I'll be letting mum in to top them up.

Fingers crossed we have a quieter night tonight...

Tanya

They are far too old to be syringing them, they should be quite capable of lapping, eating from a dish if hungry.

Pups of that size i would find they would between them take 1/4 pint (in one meal once they got the hang of it) with a small amount (1/2 ounce) of puppy kibble soaked and mashed.

> We had a pretty fruitless visit to the vets - to be honest I'm fuming!!

I won't try to give you advice on feeding, because it's obvious that you are on the right track. 

I would be furious too!  I don't see what harm could be done if your girl had been given antibiotics and Protexin.  I have had a lactating bitch on both for the same reason, and pups came to no harm.

Sometimes you just wish that you could see your favourite vet all the time, but alas we also get to see the rest!

Good Luck!  :-)

Ditto, our Jozi went down with mastitis and a raging temperature, put of very strong antibiotics. 

Pups were 10 days old and hardly missed a beat perhaps put on a little less weight thtn I would have expected that week, but nothing out of the ordinary, and as soon as the antibiotics kicked in they took off again at a faster rate.

I have to say the more I think about the trip to the vets yesterday the angrier I get! I initially phoned them to let them know that in fact my girl was making no improvement on the bland diet and to discuss where we went from there. The vet suggested I should at this point bring mum and pups to be checked over as it was likely she was suffering a bacterial infection. So I agreed, thinking it would make sense for pups to be thoroughly checked over. She assured me that it was the beginning of afternoon surgery and there was only a cat in before us...

Well I arrive, two boxes with puppies crying... my neighbour in tow to sit in the car with my bitch while the pups were being checked (thought she'd find it distressing otherwise). Well what they didn't tell me was that the other surgery had several dogs coming in and out while I was waiting in the waiting room!! I couldn't believe it! A nice lady stood in front of the boxes with me as a man came out struggling with a husky and chow mix. I kept the boxes (clear plastic) off the floor on chairs. It's a small waiting room!!

The first thing the young vet said when I went in was "what, two boxes of puppies, what a lot of puppies!!". Well that wasn't a good start! We have 7 puppies which is average for the breed. She then said a few things about what a big litter etc etc (NOT a big litter, I have a large breed gundog - 10 or more is common!). She didn't actually pick any of them up, just felt stomachs & stuck her finger in their mouths. The stethoscope didn't come out, nor did her thermometer...

By then the heavens had opened and I was running backwards and forwards with boxes of puppies to the car (parked on double yellow lines) and swap over for my bitch. She then proceeded to feel her stomach and check her gums. That's it!

My regular vet has unfortunately been away since our litter was born, thus the locum I had gone to see. It was a follow-up fee which wasn't much, but what I'm furious about is the hassle it took to bring this little lot to the vet, for that to happen!! My God, I could have told her they didn't have cleft palates!

If my bitch had a temperature which may have alerted to a more serious situation, she would have totally missed it - good job I know how to do it! I had told them over the phone that none were showing obvious signs of being ill (apart from pups obviously hungry). I think I'll wait until the boss comes back and make my complaint direct to him - will be lost in the ether beforehand!

Thanks Barbara, I'll try them with puppy soaked with milk later this morning.

Probably a side note - but I haven't seen any puppy poo for a day or two... they're obviously weeing (going to the edge of the vetbed and weeing on the newspaper  - good puppies!), I'm guessing they've not been getting enough milk the past few days? I know this is probably the last thing I should have asked as there's probably going to be explosions in the box very soon....

Anyway, my OH took over last night and I enjoyed a whole night's sleep - bliss!!! Another day another set of challenges...lol!

It's me again...

Things have been a little better the last few days, but this morning mum has the runs again (it's getting beyond a joke now!) and a couple of the pups have upset tums too. I noticed that mum had lots of little white bits in her poo... am wondering could this be a worm problem? She was wormed last week just before this tummy problem really took hold.

I gave them some baby rice last night and this morning with Nutrolac, which went down a storm, but am now wondering if this was a mistake. A friend who visited yesterday suggested this, as she felt they were too young for raw meat and/or puppy food.

I'm willing to bet that the present upset (for the pups) is down to the rice, but am at a bit of a loss as to what to do now... mum still has limited supplies of milk, pups are reluctant to lap milk from a saucer/bowl, and they're all a bit loose, a couple have watery poo.

Are we heading to ANOTHER trip to the vets?

I'm hoping someone here will hold my hand through this one....!

I'd say the baby rice was a waste of time, they get cereal in the puppy food,b ut more importantly some animal protein.

Has Mum been tested for Giardia? Campylobacter? The white specs may be worm related, but if your feeding her rice then ti could be undigested rice grains.  If she has been on Antibiotics are you giving her Bio yogurt or Acidophylus (sp) supplement to restore gut flora?

Two of mien are eating the hazelnuts from our Hazel, and of course not only eating the nuts but some of the shell.  Their poos look like Muesli bars.

As for Mum I would put her onto whatever food she did well on before pregnancy.  the benefit from the puppy rearing or high octane foods is being lost anyway if she has the runs, so she is far better having something she digests and utilises well.

Is Mum cleaning up after the babies...??

If she is then whatever you are giving the puppies will also be going straight through Mum...and rice and grains can aggravate many dogs and lead to digestive problems...

I'd find out where your nearest Prizechoice stockist is and go down there and get the puppies some Raw Frozen Freeflow Mince either lamb or chicken (2Kg bags) Just put it in a big bowl, let it thaw for a while and then put the bowl in with the puppies. They are perfectly able to feed themselves at this age and don't need rice or milk (except Mum's milk once you have her comfortable again)

Then if she's still cleaning up after the little ones......whatever is in there is much more natural to Her.... and may help settle her tummy too......

Once a puppy opens it's eyes around 10 days old they start to take an interest in what Mum is doing. By 16-17 days old they are most definitely taking an interest in what she is eating and if there is raw mince available for Mum then they are eager to try it.

By 21 days old I would be leaving Raw Freeflow Mince (or similar alternative - you need one that is minced meat and bone - rather than lean mince) freely available and introducing Raw chicken wings into the den for them to gum/gnaw on. By 28 days old they are perfectly capable of consuming a raw chicken wing themselves along with the raw freeflow mince.

Once you have the pressure off Mum's milk supply by giving the puppies some raw mince .... you'll probably find that she is much more comfortable herself and will keep nipping back in to feed them for a few minutes....and cleaning up after them.... then She will be better able to relax and enjoy spending time with her family :)

If Mum takes to the Freeflow mince and chicken wings too then let her eat it along with her little ones and 'fingers crossed' there will be less upset tummies all round :)

(If you suspect worms (although I'm wondering if the white specks you mention are undigested rice grains..??) then order some Diatomaceous Earth (I get mine from Wiggly Wigglers) and mix 1 level tsp per puppy into the bowl of mince every day for the next 30 days to break the worm cycle.

Good Luck in restoring calm to your household :)

   

Thanks for your replies.

Things have taken a turn for the worse since I posted earlier. Mum is not eating (has refused some home made mashed potato/white fish), has severe diahorrea now and has vomited. I'm waiting for my daughter to arrive so I can take her temperature but she's booked into the vets (again) at 3.

I have tried them with raw freeflow mince which they loved! I'm just soaking some of the puppy food we'll be weaning onto and will give it to them plus some Nutrolac before we head off to the vets. Hopefully my daughter will be here to give me a hand.

I hope the vets will do something this time, even if we do have to take her off the babies, she's very important to me and I hate to see her like this...

Stressful or what!!!

oh no :(  Fingers crossed you can get this sorted and it's not something too serious.

Well, we're back!

Am waiting for the vet to call me back with blood test results. Have been given pots to have fecal samples taken. She obliged the minute I let her out of the car when we got home...! She was given an antibiotic injection plus a vitamin injection. She could be very poorly (vet is worried it might be her liver) but fingers crossed it's something which can be sorted. Poor girl, she just lay there and let the vet do whatever... At least she showed some interest in her food which she ate up as soon as it was offered.

Have just given all the pups some milk as mum is looking pretty spaced out. She's been in and fed them although there isn't much milk there. a few of them were so hungry they took the bottle straight away and guzzled it.

What I am wondering is how much milk should I be feeding 19 day old puppies who weigh between 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 lb's? The most one pup had was about 50ml and was wanting more!

Any help at this stage would be very much appreciated. They don't really want to lap as such, just get themselves worked up into a frenzy and half drown themselves in it. They do however lap up the food. Trouble is, they are sucking each other (especially one little girl who targets all the boys!) so I think I'd rather try bottle for the time being.

Thanks in advance...

Well a litter of five of mine would be having a pint a day on top of what Mum is giving them. So that woudl be 4fl oz each, so I would think 1/4 to 1/2 pint a day each plus meat and puppy food to appetite would be fine, but there is no need to bottle feed at this age.

Thanks for that Barbara.

I spoke to the vet yesterday afternoon and major relief, nothing nasty turned up from the bloods, her liver function is fine so I can stop having the major worries!! Vet is phoning today for a chat and update.

Well pups are doing well on soaked puppy food (no runs) and are topping up with Nutrolac a few times a day as Mum is still feeding them. We did encourage them to lap the milk from a small plastic tray (individually so they didn't get too wet) and they took it well. We weighed them all again last night with some new digital scales I went and got as the kitchen scales I'd been using were worse than useless! They are good weights and after food and milk they settled down after a play which is what I wanted to see rather than hungry puppies restless, noisy and going mad every time mum appears.

Mum is looking more settled, seems to have stopped with the raging trots (major relief) and is eating well again. I'm presuming the problem was caused by her having absolutley no energy reserves & diahorrea on top, especially as she's been on bland diet for about 10 days now. I've added Complan and glucose to her food, just for that extra boost and so far (touch wood) it's working.

Bless her, she's looking a bit weathered, but once pups are into the swing of weaning, the pressure will be off her, and she will only need to go and "top up" rather than wear herself out doing it all alone.

Fingers crossed we'll fly through the next 5 weeks... don't need any more problems at this point.

Thanks again for all your advice and encouragement!
Tanya

So pleased the pups and mum doing better and it appears to be nothing major.

Fingers crossed the rest of it is problem free and you can relax and enjoy the pups.