have just found out that the breeder that we got our boy from did not put any edorsements on the bitch puppies they sold from the same litter as some people we are friends with have neighbours with a bitch from that litter and they have just got back to me to let me know why would they only put endorsements on the male dogs is that significant!  

No usually it is the whole litter and if anything it would be the bitches not the dogs that would carry an endorsement unless the line is known to have a health problem that is carried on the male line only.

Did you have a contract, did you sign anything when you collected your pup and if so do you have a copy. How long have you been trying to contact the breeder if they show they could be on the circuit, do you have a mobile number?

It's surprising how many people do not realise that their dog is endorsed - I think you would be wise to assume your friends neighbour has made a mistake, or has misunderstood the question.  If your boy IS endorsed then it's highly likely that all from the same litter are unless there was an exception made for one puppy (private arrangement with stud owner maybe?)

There must be a reason for only endorsing male puppies - this is why it is so important you discuss the matter with your breeder.  As someone else mentioned, males may carry certain problems within that line which will need to be checked.

You mention on your other thread that your boy has had his hips scored - what was the result?  Why would you have gone down this line if you did not intend to breed from him?

I urge you to read other threads on this forum along similar lines - breeding is far from easy and should be well planned before taking such steps.

I would try to get the bitches owner to have the injection and if she has all health tests done etc and you still want you boy to be used with her, plan it for another time.

You can check if the dogs have had the relevant health scheme tests done by putting their registered name into the health test finder on the kennel club website.

What is your boys registered name?

We can explain what health tests he has against his registration and which he hasn't (if his parents were DNA clear it would show he is hereditary clear, so not needing that particular test himself).

You can message me the name if you prefer.

ells-bells in your thread you said:-

You mention on your other thread that your boy has had his hips scored - what was the result?  Why would you have gone down this line if you did not intend to breed from him?

surely if a breed has got a hip problem then it is better to xray and score EVERY dog that is produced not just the ones that are going to be bred from,  this is the only way you will ever get a true indication of the state of the hips within that breed.

Most people are not going to put their pet dog under anaesthetic and pay around £200 just to give the breed information, if the dog is not destined to enter the gene pool.

I would be delighted if all my puppy buyers would decide to hip score. 

As it is because all decent breeders in my breed score all the breeding stock (which is about 20% of the total registrations) it gives a pretty accurate picture of our breed as a whole.  Far better than in some breeds were certain pockets or even just certain liens score everything and others don't bother at all.

It certainly would e most useful if more pet dogs were scored in breeds where there are a lot of bad scores, but in breeds where the majority of scores are in acceptable ranges, it is really important that breeding stock is tested to ensure things stay that way.

In Tibetan Terriers 2,084 dogs have been scored under the BVA scheme with a range of 0-90, and a pretty acceptable mean of 13.

The OFA data shows the breed http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html?view=2

Breed: TIBETAN TERRIER,  
Rating:                                Excellent:      Dysplastic:      Total Dogs:
Born to 1980:                     21.9%            7.4%               310
Born 1990-92:                   27.2%            6.5%               382
Born 2000-02:                   33.0%            3.9%               440
Born 03-04:                       33.9%            4.8%               661
Change 1980 to 03-04:    54.8%            -35.1%

Now reports like this on the BVA site would be far better than just knowing the totals for ever, as it shows if things are improving over time.

all tests done as i wish to know my dog heathy and happy for no other reason and advised by my breeder to staisfy ourselves that he was ok

You can check if the dogs have had the relevant health scheme tests done by putting their registered name into the health test finder on the kennel club website.

What is your boys registered name?


Ah clever lady.  Now this will be interesting.

charlielinc in the interest of giving you the benefit of the doubt send a PM to Brainless with your dogs name and she can run it through the tool. That way nobody except her will know the dog and breeder. 

You may find some support then.

Knowing that one bitch doesn't have her endorsements doesn't give you the information that all bitch puppies in the litter were not endorsed, where did you find out ALL the puppy bitches were not endorsed?

Perhaps the breeder knew this person well, perhaps they paid for a show potential etc. so many other factors.

they have just got back to me to let me know why would they only put endorsements on the male dogs is that significant!     and why was it then or have you mistyped this?

I had my oldest boy hip scored even though he will never be bred from, but he is a minor breed and it helps to know as much as we can. Also, I'd think very hard about taking him out on gundog training if I didn't know his hips were good. Admittedly, I had booked him in for surgery so it was convenient to do it while he was under GA.

Quite agree it is great if as many can be scored as possible, but unless a pet owner sees a need for it, it is a lot to ask of them, it is expensive and won't change anything for them personally. 

Certainly anyone wanting to take part in any sport with their dog should perhaps make sure the dogs up to the physical strain.

I quite agree with you ho1mer - but as Brainless says, not many 'pet owners' would be prepared to put their pet under a GA to have hips scored if they had no intention of breeding.

I was just pointing out that OP 'has had' tests done and yet her dog has a restriction.  I think most people in that situation would have spoken to the breeder first as she may well never lift the restriction regardless of ther test results.

I think most people in that situation would have spoken to the breeder first as she may well never lift the restriction regardless of ther test results.
I certainly wouldn't lift restrictions on a dog sold as a pet, regardless of the health tests, unless he's been shown and proved himself to be a good enough representative of the breed to make his genes of any value.

There is a big difference between a dog being healthy and happy and the hip score being low enough for the dog to be used for breeding purposes.
A dog with a slightly elevated hipscore would most likely still be considered healthy in vet speak but should not be bred from if you have any thought for future generations of this particular breed.
I have just sold a litter (all endorsed including the one I have kept) and would certainly not lift the endorsements unless all health tests had been done with good results (as stated in my contract) and that the dogs were fit for purpose and there was a good reason to breed from them. 

I read a good article in the Swedish Golden Retriever Club's magazine recently. It was about stud dogs, and pointed out the valid fact that a dog can have great hips, elbows and eyes but is still of absolutely no benefit to the breed if it has any other problems, be it a recurring skin problem, incorrect temperament, a delicate stomach etc etc -there is so much more to it than just the main health tests.  The entire picture needs to be right. I've mentioned it before here, I recently lifted the endorsement on a dog that I had bred. He had been hip scored and eye tested with good results (the owner sent me copies of the certs as well), he's had good show results even though his main thing isn't showing and he competes in grade 6 agility. I've met him and he's all you'd want. Now there's a good full picture so I was perfectly happy to lift his endorsement.

No KC name has appeared then?

If it were me I would have got that name product jack flash to prove all the tests had been done.   Happy to be humble :-D

A dog with a slightly elevated hipscore would most likely still be considered healthy in vet speak but should not be bred from if you have any thought for future generations of this particular breed.

I'd say that depends on the breed and the gene pool. My co-owned import came back with a disappointing hip score of 14. The BMS is 9. Now 14 is still very low if you look at dogs in general (i.e. had he been of a different breed, he would have been below average -I don't know of any other country than the UK that separates scores according to breed as we do here -I think it has both advantages and disadvantages), and this dog being an import (with his entire pedigree having ONLY A scored dogs in it) -his blood is very much needed as the genepool in the UK is tiny indeed.  So despite the score being above average, I have no worries about using him. Again you've got to look at the whole picture. Had it been a popular breed it would have been a different story.

> No KC name has appeared then?
>

Why should it have.  if she wishes to remain private then she's not going to.  There is no reason why she would publisise it.

In reply to MarianneB, Well it would be silly to through the baby out with the bath water - all dogs have faults and that is why responsible breeder look hard and deep to weigh a fault against the advantages. You have to have a rounder picture not only of the pair to be mated but of there descendants to see what is being thrown.

Well if she wants our honest help it would have helped.  She was advised to send it privately so that the general public and other members would not see it , hardly being public. Sunshine :-)

Should help and assistance always come one way on this board?

There is no reason why she would publisise it.
Quote selected text

Except she has asked for advise and knowing the tests that have been passed is necessary to give that advice, it was asked for in a PM so hardly public. If the OP can quote on the open forum that would be public it would also get the best advice available.

However I do agree with you that taunting is unnecessary.

be it a recurring skin problem, incorrect temperament, a delicate stomach etc etc
Not just in the sire and dam but also in the siblings.  They may be carrying problems that aren't showing in the dog himself and so whilst he may make a good pet, he may not be suitable for breeding.  A good breeder would know and understand this and therefore put an otherwise quality dog in a pet home. 
The further these threads are continuing, the more I'm thinking that your dog's breeder is a wise one.


However I do agree with you that taunting is unnecessary.

I am assuming that is to me as I have asked several times IF the results via the dogs KC name had appeared.  I get a tad fed up of people only wanting the feedback they want and when they get something else we get criticised from them.  I don't think it is taunting or certainly not my understanding of the word.  The OP had the opportunity there to put the concerns to rest so further advice based on the facts could have been given.  

A story starts off simple but seems to always strangely grow.  If the facts can't be followed up then we should just close it.

The answers were given to the original question but then the story as always is in this situations grows to. 

Lack of responsibility always starts with a BUT..   Why is it people do the most silly things and when they are told they are silly that becomes the bigger crime :-D

I agree Blue - if this dog has been hip scored and it is a reasonable/good result - why not let everyone know?  By not giving confirmation of this, one can only assume that the relevant tests have not been done or are above the breed average.

I agree too, as I have said you will get better quality answers if you give the correct information the reason I commented is because I noted several cajoling posts not likely to bring forth information.

These posts tend only to start when someone provokes them IE criticising people giving the original advise.  Need to look back but I think it may have been Sunshine that mentioned bullying.  To me that is where it started ;-)

People don't like advise when it is something they don't want to hear, out goes the dummy.

If I was armed with the facts " cajoling" posts would make me determined to prove them wrong :-)

Not to worry , looks like we have answered this to death.

Fingers crossed she misses.

Nope no PM received yet of the dogs or bitches names, to help clarify the health testing position.

Personally, I don't think you will either...

no you wont the only people who need that information is myself having spoken to a breeder of another breed they have given great advice and not been as judgemental as some of you who were only asked a simple question and have all gone off on a tangent! I have a clear consience and have done nothing to effect the breed and would never want to

>I have a clear consience and have done nothing to effect the breed and would never want to

charlielinc, if the pregnancy does not go ahead then I agree you have done nothing to adversely affect your breed.

Should your neighbours wish to proceed and puppies are produced that cannot be registered then unfortunately you will be party to actions that can damage a breed and a breeders reputation. 

Your breeder has made efforts to ensure you do not use your boy at stud.  Your neighbours breeder would I'm sure wish to have been consulted in their mating decisions.  This situation, if allowed to continue, benefits no one, least of all the puppies.

I agree too, as I have said you will get better quality answers if you give the correct information the reason I commented is because I noted several cajoling posts not likely to bring forth information.

That is a good point so if the OP wanted to she could say what the scores are without giving her name but i expect unless they are bang on perfect she will be criticised where others might get leeway.  Have a go where its deserved, it not a forum run by gods just nice ordinary people who want to help each other.  i believe we need to remember that.

> These posts tend only to start when someone provokes them IE criticising people giving the original advise.  Need to look back but I think it may have been Sunshine that mentioned bullying.  To me that is where it started ;-)

You know well its me silly.  that kind of statement reflects the unfortunalte turn of this topic.

> People don't like advise when it is something they don't want to hear, out goes the dummy.
>
> If I was armed with the facts " cajoling" posts would make me determined to prove them wrong :-)
>
>

Advice is a good thing if its given in a 'NICE' constructive manner.  If you wondered about the hip scores there are better ways to ask.  I'm surprized the OP has come back.  And no Blue I'm wasn't fully refering to your posts either or just on this topic so don't take it personally.  However, i do find that people jump to these sort of remarks when their concience pricks them.

Not sure but I think Brainless asked for the name of the dogs so she could check the health tests not only on the dogs involved but also the ancestry, this sort of research is done much easier by someone who has done it many times before. I would imagine with this information Brainless would have been is a much better position to help the OP she may even have known the breeder.

Exactly health tests need to be taken in context with everything else, and the OP did not sound as if they really understood health testing as opposed to veterinary checks.

They did not say, my dog has good hip scores, has an up to date eye test and is hereditary clear/been DNA tested as clear/carrier for PLL etc, they just kept mentioning their vet, which is not the person that does the tests, though can be involved with some of the sampling/x-raying.

So being able to look up what tests the dog had against it's registration would have made things much easier to explain, and then the correct action could have resulted int eh OP being able to make a good case to have the endorsements lifted, if appropriate (we don't know if the dog had a bad mouth or some other conformation fault that would preclude it from breeding).

No judgements are being made about the OP, perhaps of the carelessness of the neighbour, as the situation is not of their making.

I had a very nice couple come to visit me about the breed. I was unable to put them on my waiting list as it was too large already but put them in touch with a fellow breeder.

I had spent some time explaining the Hip Scoring, eye testing and DNA test for prcd-PRA that our breed has, and that their pup had two clear parents an would e hereditary clear, and the hip scores of the parents, and that the pups would have endorsements, and I am sure the breeder gave them the same information both verbally and in writing..

The pup is now 3 months old so I saw them about 4 months ago.  They ran into my husband yesterday and they hadn't a clue about the test results, as my hubby asked if the pups was clear or would need testing.

A lot of people just don't take in the information they are told or even that they are given.

I had a 9 year old bitch back because of a marriage breakdown.  Her documents were in the pouch exactly as I had given it to them.  They had never looked at the pedigree again after I had shown it to them, never transfered the ownership of the dog, or read the BVA eye and  Hip leaflets, ti was all just as I had given them.

> why would they only put endorsements on the male dogs is that significant!  

Maybe the breeder thought/knew the boys in the litter were not good enough quality to be used for breeding

Who knows why they did this, but they obviously had their reasons..

> explain, and then the correct action could have resulted int eh OP being able to make a good case to have the endorsements lifted, if appropriate

This could still be done in an hypothetical way, maybe go through what is good and what is acceptable then what is not good.  I don't believe we need the full results per se to give sound honest advice in a constructive way.

If the OP knows of any shows that the breeder entered she could contact the show secretary for a copy of the catalogue or just explain what info she wants.  i completely understand why she wouldn't who she or the breeder is, after all someone could take it upon themselves to call the breeder which wouldn't be productive.

At least if the breeder is contacted it is in the pups abd breeders best interests to discuss it with them.  the breeder might not lift the endorsement but at least could offer whelping and rearing advice to the dog.

i think it was on the other thread that said TT are rare - no they're rare, they are very popular so no underhand there.

Don't think from the replies that the OP is listening or if they are then perhaps not understanding.

I've only ever saw 1 where I live I a very built up area, and that was only at ringcraft, I wouldn't consider them popular like the usual breeds I see.

Sunshine since when where you made lord of the board.  You post how you want to post but don't tell others what they can and cannot say.

This story grew to suit the OP maybe you are "silly" enough to fall into the trap but I certainly am not.

Using words to other members such as silly and bully does nothing but annoy people.

instead of moderating the thread and telling others what to say just you answer the OP questions in your way and others will in their way. You want to support the litter and mating you do that in YOUR way , others can give THEIR opinions.

The OP was asked to supply the KC dog name in private to a long standing and trust worthy member in turn WE would have given her continual advice  that said the dog could have the best scores in the world, you say what you like about the reasons for this info not forth coming but stupid some of us are not. I as a responsible breeder would not be lifting the endorsements.  If they are health tested and the pregnancy goes ahead they could be sold as no registered pets at a reduced price to good homes.   Why would a good breeder want to drag themselves or their reputation into a mess?  

I know nothing about you but ask you not to judge so quickly. Some people may be a bit longer in the tooth than you.

My sentiments entirely blue, you can't ask for a opinion and then get upset when it isn't the one you wanted.

sorry think my bored children and their friends have been having a bit of fun they have just informed of what they have been adding to this site so to set the record straight i can safely say i have 2 tibetan terriers and next door have 2 but older than mine also at my youngest childs school there is 1 and they did have 2 but lost one. To my knowledge the bitch next door not having puppies and my dog did get in but only to play no season that i am aware of think kids much more resorceful than me i could not set up to go on this site it takes me all my time to log on and normally with help. Think they have all overheard the fact that we can not breed from our boy not that we want to and like lots of children love the ideas of puppies but as an adult I certainly do not want puppies running around unless very healthy and planned think apologises all round but having just read some of the messages I am a little amazed that they had so much info and no i am no mole or whatever it was just a very angry parent at the moment with some rather subdued 10 and 11 year olds busy cleaning up dog mess and hoovering while I have a nice cup of tea and a biscuit while sitting with my exuberant male(that is I think how he was refered too) I think this about clears this whole thing up do hope I never really have to ask anything on here now I would be too scared

Sorry to say, the posts didn't reflect 10 and 11 years old vocab.

hope all works out.

Blue I can say what i see so telling me not to use blah blah tells me only your opinion counts.  how long in the tooth people are has no bearing on how they treat people.  i've met the politest 5 yr olds.

And no i don't support an mating one way or the other.  if its happened then the bich and pups need support.