Hi, I've been toying with raw feeding for a long time. I like the sound of it in terms of benefits for the dogs, I'm not so sure about it in terms of my convenience! However, the more I read the more it seems that the first few months are the worst in terms of the military type organisation required in order to maintain balanced feeding of your dogs and in order not to run out of food.

I have now discovered the grain free complete feeds which could get rid of my doubts about raw feeding in terms of convenience when we go away.

What I would like to know from experienced raw feeders is:

I've 5 adult dogs - how am I going to find it in terms of cost to raw feed compared to dry feed (I use CSJ and AG - talking around £18-£23 for 15kg bag) - price is a factor sadly.

Are there benefits to raw feeding a dog with hip dysplasia?

I have a bitch I have trouble stopping putting weight on, and I have a dog who I have trouble maintaining a high enough weight ... will I notice a difference with raw feeding?

I've got a copy of Lew Olson's Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs ... if anyone has read this, is there one other book that you would say is better, or does this pretty much cover most things?

Look forward to comments :-)

Can I just ask whether those of you that raw feed ever use kennels and if so what you leave as food for your dogs whilst they are there?

I always buy a copy of Tom Lonsdale's "Work Wonders" to put in my puppy packs. Its straightforward, simple to read and understand and is written with a passion and sense of humour. It takes all the mystery and worry out of converting to Natural Feeding.

With 5 dogs you may find it cheaper to invest in a separate chest freezer and to order in bulk from one of the raw suppliers. Local butchers will always have a supply of bones and once they know you will be coming in regularly many will put them aside for you.

In my own personal opinion I feel that every dog would benefit from switching over to raw, as in effect it is both food and medicine for them. Our domesticated pet canines (modified wolves) have no digestive enzymes in their bodies to deal with grains, rice, carbohydrates etc and it is this that passes straight through them as the body is unable to utilise it properly. To my mind dogs fed a commercial diet are likely "starving" in a way and suffering from a hidden malnutrition.

Within 3 months you would start to see a vast improvement in coat, teeth, smell, (no more having to subject them to shampoos) sweeter breath and they will have a steadier energy. Plus the sheer and utter contentment on furry faces is a joy to behold :)

The first time I fed raw chicken, my heart was in my mouth and I thought they might all be lieing on their backs with their legs in the air by morning... !  But no...they were all still absolutely fine and eager to see what I was bringing them today :)

I give mine whole raw eggs in the shells twice a week. I buy lambs liver from the supermarket for them once a week (I only give a little bit to them as it can cause them to have the runs in large quantities) They have whole mackerel, sprats, sardines off the fresh fish counter (which you can often get in the reduced section. Whole rabbits "fur feet gut n all" when I can get them (their absolute favourite dinner) raw meaty bones from the butcher, chicken carcass, green tripe. Once you use your imagination it's really quite thrilling searching for "goodies" in the reduced section of your local supermarket to take back home to them

In my own personal experience I think its better for the dog, just to decide on a day that you're going to make the change and then just do it. If you try to mix raw with biscuit/kibble then the biscuit will come through at a different rate to the natural food as it has a longer transit time through the system. Any loose tummies you may have been experiencing with commercial food, usually clear up instantly as long as there is no commercial kibble passing through and complicating the picture.

Dogs fed raw seldom overeat but if they are gaining too much weight just reduce the muscle meat content of their diet and if they are losing weight just add more muscle meat to their diet....along with the staple diet of raw meaty bones.

With puppies I leave raw food freely available and after a year old I feed them once a day. I vary the times so I can be with them and watch their enjoyment. You will find that after several months they will have what I call a "full day" and won't be hungry at all. Although fasting one day a week is really good for them too, I tend to respect their own feelings of when they are full and will just ensure they have a big meaty bone available if they want it.

Good Luck if you make the decision....I'm certain your "pet wolves" will love you more than ever for it :)

I would recommend Ian Billinghurst's books on raw feeding they have helped me and I now use them as reference from time to time.

As far as cost is concerned I am not too sure how much it costs raw feeding my 2 dogs (golden retriever & collie/retriever x). The meat and bones, chicken wings, breast of lamb and liver I get from my local farm butcher and I have just collected 9 kgs of chicken wings which cost £14 - I will bag them into meals for the dogs and freeze some.  The fruit and veg could work out expensive, but as I do lots of juicing for my family it is easy to use the pulp from this for the dogs.  Then there are the oils and vitamins that I add, again the cost is over quite a long period so I don't really know how that works out cost wise.

I think there are benefits from what Ian Billinghurst says about feeding dogs with HD on a raw diet. 

I have 2 dogs, one never puts on weight and the other only has to look at food to put it on (poor boy) so even when feeding a raw diet you have to watch the portions but you will get used to it - after a few months it becomes second nature.

When I have put the dogs into kennels, I have made up individual meals (sometimes as many as 60 portions) and the kennels keep them in their freezer and thaw out each day.

For the price comparison you can calculate your raw feeding costs using your adult dogs weight, there are online calculators (I'll give you a link when I find it).  If you calculate at 2-3% of the ideal adult dog weight you'll get an idea.  I have an middle aged dog on 2% and a super active 3yr old on 3%.

If you check prices at any of the online raw distributors you'll see what amount you'll be paying per meal/week/dog.  Work on 80% meat 10% meaty bones and 10% offal as a guide to get you started.  I chuck the odd bit of veg in if I have it, my two both like it, but I don't think it's vital

I was feeding Arden Grange and I do think raw is cheaper.  However I really feel it's sooo much better for my dogs that I've found that cost has become a lower priority.  I still care about prices but I don't count it out like I used to!!

I am going to read the books suggested as I do think it will be beneficial in the long run for us to move to raw feeding. At age 3 would you say they could be fed once a day on raw?

With a dog that is going in for a dental under GA I am keen to avoid this happening again!

>Can I just ask whether those of you that raw feed ever use kennels and if so what you leave as food for your dogs whilst they are there?

Although mine are raw fed they still have the odd kibble meal, as both dogs like it, and I also give Naturediet sometimes too.  Both are convenient when travelling.

I rarely use kennels but for a few days they'd be OK on either of these options.  If it were for longer I'd make sure that the kennels were equipped to feed my food or I'd look at Housesitter options

As far as costs go, it all depends on where you get the meat. I'd never be able to feed my dogs raw (now they get 50 % raw, 50 % CSJ) if I had to order it from any of the companies. We were lucky to find a butcher with plenty of bones and offcuts and he gets us enough meat and bones to feed 8 large dogs on for 2 weeks for £4 to £5!

Downside to raw feeding - I have just fed my dogs fresh Mackerel and Whitting and I now stink !?!?!?!
I was fascidious when I first started feeding raw,fresh herbs,kelp,variety of meats,variety of fresh veggies,eggs,bio yogurt - feeding time was an exact science.Now a few years on they have what ever meat the butcher provides for that weeks delivery,what ever fruit and veggies are looking alittle sad and neglected in the veg rack and cod liver oil and whatever else is lying around thats suitable.
A few months back there was sadly a deer lying beside the road a result of early morning road kill,and believe me if it wasn't that it was a mid summers day and would have been in the car for 12 hours,it would have been that nights supper for the woos.
Oh and its very cheap,10 dogs less than £1.50 a day.That includes vits and eggs,yogurt etc.

cost isn't a huge factor as I only have the one dog, however I am sure if I add the cost of the dental, plus all the dental "bits and pieces" I have bought it must work out cheaper!

Here's the online calculator to work out how much to feed each dog.  It's a handy start point

I feed my dogs twice a day - I think it is better for larger dogs rather than one large meal.  

I have been feeding raw for around 5 years now. As you say at the beginning it can seem quite daunting and I used to spend ages faffing around making up meals for the next few days but, with experience, it now literally takes me seconds to sort out a meal.

I feed twice a day as have a large dog and I prefer to feed him two smaller meals rather than one large one - consequently my other smaller dog has the same regime. I did invest n a small chest freezer which holds roughly two months worth of frozen food at a time and I buy in bulk from one of the big suppliers sharing an order with someone else to meet the minimum purchase requirements - we also order different meats and then share them out between us to get  variety.

If feeding a bony meal I prefer to do this in the evening to give them the whole of the night to digest their food and thus feed meat/tripe/fish etc in the mornings.

As for cost I have found it very much cheaper than feeding a good quality kibble. I used to feed Arden Grange that had to be ordered on line and a large sack would last around a month or just under. Raw feeding costs me between £15- £20 a month depending on what I need to order that month - and sometimes I don't have to order anything as have enough left to last me. I feed two dogs for that price.

The balance with the food is obtained over a period of time not on a daily basis - I aim to get the balance over the course of three weeks to a month and this seems to work fine for my dogs. I feed far less in weight of raw food than I did with kibble - maybe a good third less. Now and again I do feed the odd meal of kibble as I want to be able to have a dog whose digestion system can cope with anything if I ever need to use kennels or for when my daughter looks after the dogs as she can't "do" raw. I am very lucky in that the kennels I use  now are quite willing to feed raw to my dogs - I prepare their meals and divide it into the appropriate portions and they will feed it.

My vet often comments on the great condition of my dogs and how brilliant their teeth are. My larger dog had to have a rear molar removed due to a slab fracture (from catching a stone thrown by someone else at the beach) and my vet said they would give him a quick dental whilst he was under but when I collected him they said they hadn't bothered with the dental as his teeth were in wonderful condition. I don't feed many raw bones as whole bones now - a lot of the bones I feed are minced - but the lack of sugar and other additives in his diet have kept his teeth sparkling.

As with anyone who asks for advice about raw feeding I would say that one has to do a huge amount of research prior to starting in order to avoid the pitfalls - a common one being the feeding or far too much bone in the diet which can cause huge compaction issues. Research, research and research some more is the best advice I can give :-)

DAB,

What a great idea with the calculator!! Thank you  :-)

I'm currently looking at the company below to see if they are good prices for raw food. I'm thinking about making a move back over to it again.. My butcher has never been able to guarentee bones or meaty bones for me, so this seems a good idea.
http://www.thedogfoodcompany.co.uk/products.html

Sue, it's great that the company in your link can supply whole rabbit. I don't have a source for wabbits - we don't even have wild ones much near here so no local hunters either  Their minced beef price seems oddly high though, I'd double check that (I pay 45p for best minced meat from TPMS).  It may well be worth checking with a few online suppliers to see if prices compare.  I was quite encouraged to see that my supplier is cheaper in some foods and equivalent in others.  Lamb breast is just as cheap from a butcher though and they'll cut it up for you which helps.

I'm planning on asking a few local farmers about their Christmas turkeys this year as I'm sure I can get some spare bits from locally prepared birds.  I'm not entirely sure if I can cope with all of it though so I may rely on OH for the feathered bits! :)

I think you can make the process as simple or as complicated as you want to. It will also depend on doing a little research on 'The Big Question' (and the question that has led to us all blindly following the pet food manufacturers like sheep..... and in the process totally forgetting how to feed our dogs ourselves)

"The Big Question".......Is a Dog a Carnivore or an omnivore....??

After doing my own research on external and internal anatomy, teeth, enzymes available in the canine body etc and emailing with Tom Lonsdale in Australia I personally am firmly in "The Dog is a Carnivore" camp. From the tiniest of terriers to the largest of the large breeds, they all share the same internal anatomy (and the vast majority of their DNA) as The Grey Wolf.

Once your own research makes you feel comfortable with this fact then it even becomes FUN to start on a journey of discovery together with your dog :)

I too go for a balance of nutrients over a month by giving them as much variety as possible. I doubt that there are many amongst us "two legs" who eat a completely balanced diet every day.? Or feed our kids a balanced diet every single day.? Rather we know that the balance is achieved over time.

Whenever I have a question in my head regarding the welfare of my canine friends I look to Mother Nature to answer it for me. Is what I am doing for/with my dogs....going with Nature or against Her...??

>From the tiniest of terriers to the largest of the large breeds, they all share the same internal anatomy (and the vast majority of their DNA) as The Grey Wolf.

Gorillas share 99% of human genes ...

I agree when you start raw it seems you will spend all day sorting it out. A couple of years down the line I put my hand in the freezer and see what comes out. Mine dont usually get anything but raw meat and maybe some fish.
BTw make sure yours eat rabbit and dont end up as I have with 3 frozen rabbits and my dogs wont touch them lol !

> Here's the [url=http://www.raw4dogs.com/calculate.htm" rel=nofollow]online calculator[/url] to work out how much to feed each dog.&nbsp; It's a handy start point <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20 height=10>

Just tried it, I would have to feed my girls far less than they are now,at present its a nightmare to put weight on.  have been half a raw diet just worried incase I don't provide all their nutrients due to them being picky.

My old girl has switched to tinned and complete, she's got very smelly so switching back.  i always gave fresh meat before but cooked.  I'm moving further into raw and will look at the books that's been recommended.

Thanks for all the comments. I am feeding some raw in addition to a complete feed, and I think from what I'm reading for my convenience, and sanity, I will probably end up 50 raw/50 complete. It would be impossible to feed raw on most of my away trips.

Looks like the first thing I need to do is find a good local, regular source of meat.

The important part to keep in mind is not just meat on its own.....but raw meaty bones like chicken carcass, whole wild rabbits, turkey drumsticks for larger breeds, chicken wings for small breeds, pigs trotters, lamb bones with all the meat removed (Morrisons often have these really cheap if you are just feeding one dog or two dogs)

The bone content of a canine diet is crucial to their health as it provides the perfect balance of phosphorous/calcium. (It also helps to stop dogs from suffering blocked anal glands and the nibbling and crunching through consumable bone is critical to maintaining pearly white teeth)

As a rough guide I probably feed 60-70% raw meaty bones and then the remaining 30% to 40% green tripe, heart (muscle meat), a little liver (offal) once a week, lambs breast, a couple of eggs a week (I got a dozen free range eggs the other day marked down to 20p just because there were two cracked ones in the box!)

I also buy my Border Collies frozen day old chicks now and again and whole fresh fish as they provide a nutrient rich snack that has everything in it (ie-brains, bones, offal, feather, feet, gut, eyes,)

My partner's Irish Setter won't eat anything with feathers on (his chicken has to be feather free and will only eat rabbit when he's slung it about on the lawn for a couple of weeks, buried it in the flowerbeds, and dug it up when its dripping in allsorts of unsavoury creeping and crawling things. He prefers to do this under a cloak of secrecy when he knows the Border Collies aren't watching him - unless they have found it and dug it up already :) ) 

As canines are natural carrion eaters then I don't worry about this either. The Irish Setter and also several of the BCs actually seem to prefer their food on the "ripe" side and will often dig something up that they've "saved for later" even though they have fresh food available on a daily basis. (I've found it best just to avert my gaze and heave quietly into the flower beds...... than to watch wriggling things dripping out of the mouths of my loved ones LOL :) )

Also girlies fed on raw seem to have a stress free whelping, a plentiful supply of milk and puppies weaned straight onto raw mince from 3 weeks have a natural weight gain, are happy and contented and by 4 - 6 weeks old are merrily crunching their way through chicken wings and anything else that Mum is having.

 

by 4 - 6 weeks old are merrily crunching their way through chicken wings and anything else that Mum is having.

Sounds delightful :-O

"Sounds delightful" 

It is delightful :)

Because Mum is fed on raw then I know the little ones are getting everything they need from her milk for the first weeks. Then between 21/2 to 3 weeks old they start taking an interest in what Mum is eating.

At 3 weeks old I start putting raw lamb, chicken or rabbit mince in the Den which they consume with gusto and they will also start gumming/chewing on raw chicken wings. By 4 weeks old they are eating both mince and raw wings and will pick up a lamb bone thats bigger than they are and take it off to a corner and gnaw contentedly on it.

Mum continues to feed them and around 4-5 weeks old begins to regurgitate her own food for them too (which I find really touching because she is doing what comes natural to her)

By 6 weeks old, although I still give them raw mince, they develop a preference for raw wings, lamb bones, wild rabbit and at this stage I introduce them to a little raw green tripe.

By 8 weeks old they are independent little carnivores in their own right :)  (although Mum will still feed them for a couple of minutes several times a day for comfort and reassurance and until her milk has subsided naturally)

So yep....a delight to witness :)

  

I get all of my bones, heart, liver,steaks and any scrap meats from my local butchers, they also have a farm and do loads of boning out so every week I get at least 2 dustbins of bones and meats from them for pennies, yesterday i got 40 chicken legs for free as well as 10 t bone steaks, the rest i get from Durham Animal Feeds.

Get in with your local butchers as they have to pay to have bone and meat waste taken away.

I have 10 dogs - 7 Boxers a Rottie Cross and 2 Pharaoh Hounds and they eat only Raw and thrive on it, we have noticed a huge difference in the pups we have reared on raw as well, so much better in every way.