Hi,

Just wanted to ask opinions on here, one of my puppy owners from a couple of years ago has been on the phone to me on and off today as his girl (large breed) was in labour, she was panting, digging and then sleeping intermitently, with odd little dribbles of fluid, all clear and not smelly, she was well in herself and wagging her tail.

He gave her 4 hrs and then rang the vet who said bring her in for exam and they can give her something to get her going, i warned him before he went about the dangers of oxytocin and that my opinion was it shouldnt be given before one puppy has been born naturally to ensure 100% she is fully dilated.

anyhow he rang to say the vet said she was dilated and gave her oxy, 30-40 mins later still nothing so off for c-section.
In short the result is 13 puppies, a ruptured uterus, internal bleeding and mum fighting for her life in the vets as we speak.

I have my own opinion and i feel that to give oxy to a bitch who is clearly cramed with puppies (she was huge) without any xray or scan to check for a puppy blocking the channels or something that looks like it could be a problem is really bad. The vet has made him (and me really as we talked on the phone a few times today and were both happy she was calm and no signs of a real problem, so he waited a few hrs) feel bad for waiting and said if she had been taken in any later she would be dead. I am really not convinced that the ruptured uterus wasnt caused by the oxy in the first place and that the vet should have at the very least xrayed or scanned and then decided on a plan from there. If she was fully dilated and nothing happening the surely a c-section would have been the safer choice.

I would not be happy for a girl of mine to have a oxy jab without any checks being done first, especially if she was full with puppies.

My only experince of oxy was my girl 3 yrs ago who delivered 2 naturally at home then everything stopped, she was then scanned and xrayed for any blockages and only then did she have oxytocin. A very long story but the result was also a ruptured uterus and my girl fighting for her life. Thankfully she made it was spayed and we are thankful everyday to still have her here with us but after that experience i would be very reluctant to use it ever again and Never without a scan or xray first.
He now has 13 puppies that may lose their mummy and he will probably lose some babies tonight too....i feel so very sad for them and wish there was something i could do.
The scary part also is that i have her litter sister and she is expecting her first litter in 11 days too and is also very large and i have been really worried the last few days and now i am terrified of being put in that position too of her being too full of babies.

Would be interested to hear from you experienced people what you think about this course of action for this poor girl and her puppies, was that a bad call by the vet?

Mandy...what a terrible situation for your friend...i hope the dam & her puppies all survive. I bred dogs for 15 years & was always told NEVER to give Oxytocin before a female passes the first puppy as it can (& usually does) cause a ruptured uterus as your friends poor bitch has found out. If the female hadn't gone into labour normally because she was carrying too many puppies then the vet should have offered a c section...this would have been a more controlled situation & all should have gone to plan. Some vets these days are a liability....it's scary when we keep reading these things. Hope all goes well for your girl.      

Mandy, what an awful situation to be in. 

I think I know vets through and through, but admit to telling them what I want

Working with dozens of vets in the large animal sector, I will only use a specialist small animal vet for my precious dogs.

One of my girls, expecting her first litter, had very strong contractions for an hour, and was getting nowhere (it's always out of hours isn't it?)

It wasn't my favourite vet on call, and the female vet said, right we'll give her oxytocin.  I bet she thought I was a chopsy so and so.  I told her that there was nothing wrong with the bitches contractions, and I felt that a scan was in order.  I am sure that she argued the toss, just to put me in my place!  :-)

She insisted on an X-ray, as it was more than likely that the pups were too big, and she could tell from an X-ray better than a scan.  You could see the problem really clearly.  Nothing wrong with the size of the pups, but there were 2 in the same horn, not behind each other, but jammed solid, side by side!  Poor girl was never going to get them down, even with decent contractions.

No oxytocin, and a C-section to deliver 2 healthy puppies.  I mentioned it to one of the vets at work the next day, and he said that oxytocin should never be used unless a bitch had already delivered a pup by herself.  But, to be honest, a lot of people wouldn't have stuck their oar in like I did.  Frightening really.  :-(

I have my fingers crossed, and sending positive vibes.

Hi Mandy,
What an awful story. Poor owner, and poor bitch. I really
hope she'll pull through.
In my opinion oxytocin should never be given, unless you know for sure
that the bitch is fully open, and that there isn't a large pup stuck. Or two
blocking each other.
From what you told us, this girl hadn't even begun to have contractions?

It's frightening to hear stories like this. And to try to blame the owner for waiting too long!
This vet made a grave mistake, and the poor bitch has to pay for it. To try to blame
someone else is disgusting.
Fingers crossed she'll be fine, and her pups too.
Karen

Just quick update, my friend has just rang me to say that his girl is up on her feet this morning and he is going to collect her at 11am, thank god for that, i have been worrying about her all night as she was once my baby too.

He has done great and been up all night feeding and at the moment still has all 13 babies feeding strongly, fingers crossed everyone will be ok but first and foremost thank god that his girl is coming home :)

Also just to add my girl is heavy panting as we speak and i am stressed!!!! She isnt due until next saturday so i am praying she isnt going to go too soon as she like her litter sister is huge....am very worried :(

My bitch has been panting daily for the last week (Not the same breed but) and my mentor said its probably because the pups were making her feel uncomfortable x

Fingers crossed for your friend and the mum & pups

Thank goodness the bitch is ok! If your own bitch is due this coming Saturday and now panting, don't panic as the pups are viable - if it's a week on Saturday, let's hope she hangs on a couple more days, but hopefully all will be well.

After a bad experience my friend had some years back, she advises always getting oxytocin when all puppies have been delivered, just to make sure all afterbirths are passed, she nearly lost her bitch due to a retained one. What do people think about this one?

Thanks lucydogs, Ruby isnt due until next sat, so am praying she holds on, i want to get to tuesday really then i will feel safer.

I have never given oxy as a matter of course but i always count out the placenta's and if i knew i was still missing any after 24hrs i would get an oxy jab but any missing at the birth have always passed within 24hrs often later on when they go for a wee. Just my opinion though, some people on here i think do give it as standard. whatever you feel is right for your girl.

Hi , I have DDB'S and my last bitch was given oxy and also ended up with a torn uterus and a c section. But she only had six pups , I think the oxy was to blame and would be very cautious about using it early on in labour again.

Wishing you good luck with your litter , and also to your owners .
xxx

Hi, Did your girl give birth to a puppy before the oxy?

After my own experience 3 yrs ago with my rottie (different vet to my current one who is fab) i would be very hesitant to ever use again and like i say definately not before the bitch has whelped at least one puppy on her own. Some of the vets out there are frightening.

Also was your girl spayed as i was told mine had to be (didnt care, she is what matters) but this girl which the post was about has not been so whats the thoughts on that too?

I have used Oxy in the past with slow welpers but Never Ever prior to a pup being born. If a bitch is contracting well then there is no need for it, the oxy is to strengthen contractions (Or so I have been led to believe) not any other reason so if I had a bitch contracting strongly with no pup I would want a scan at the very least to see what was goin on or an x-ray. With my large breed there is no way a vet can reach high enough to feel if she is wholly dilated (may be possible with smaller breeds) so to give oxy before a pup was born would be a foolish thing to do. I would always question a vet who suggested it before a pup had been born. My Vet always gives a shot of calcium at the same time as the oxy now, usually just behind the elbow close to the ribs.
I am sorry your friend has had so much trouble and hope things look up now Mum is home with her babies.
Aileen

Mandy Im glad your friends bitch is up on her feet, what a worry.  (and I hope your girl isn't in labour too!)

My Marnie had her 1st pup on Sunday dinnertime and 2 hours later, she still hadnt had any more and no contractions so we rang the emergency vet and he said take her down for a checkup.

So we went down and he gave her an internal and said he could feel a head, so he gave her a small dose of oxytocin and said if nothing appeared within an hour, to go back down.  Upon our arrival at home after a 15 min drive, 2 pups appeared in quick succession.

Then nothing again so we rang back and he said go down again.  So this time he scanned her and could see a spine and possibly another pup but that one was very high up.  He gave her some more Oxy and a calcium jab with the same instructions.

When we got home, after about half an hour she had another pup.  That was about 10pm.  At about 3.40 am she was pushing again and out popped another pup but she was very tiny.  I had to revive her and unfortunately she died early the next morning, but I couldnt get her to take milk from Mom or bottle. 

Touch wood Marnie is fine now and pups are good and gaining weight but our own vet said he thought because the litter was quite small for a LB gundog and they weren't massive pups, she didn't produce quite enough oxytocin to get them going on their own.  Had there been a couple more or these ones had been larger, we may have been ok.

Hope your friends bitch goes on ok and recovers quickly and that your girl hangs on until the weekend!  xx

I am just wondering why oxytocin shouldn't be used before a puppy has been born? In humans oxytocin is used to start labour off and can be used before the cervix is dilated so why shouldn't this be done in dogs?

Hi , no she hadn't had a pup before oxy and they also didn't spay her . When I went to collect her they told me about the uterine tear and advised that she should not be bred from again. I have never had this happen before so I don't know what the chances would be of the uterus tearing before another littter were ready to be born , I am at the moment contempating having her spayed.
I think if I had the choice at the time I'd of had her spayed and it would of saved her another op.

> I think if I had the choice at the time I'd of had her spayed and it would of saved her another op.

This is something that I won't do.  Although I know for sure that there are CD'ers that will disagree with me!  :-)  We all have a preference on this.

As soon as I know a section is going to happen, I make it very clear that I do NOT want my girl spayed, and that I will bring her back in 12 weeks to have it done.

Simply because it's a much more lengthy process, more blood vessels raging, and a slight chance of pyo if anything is retained.  Everything is swollen, and there is always the chance that some tissue is missed due to the swelling. 

If you ask a vet - and they give you an honest answer about their choice - the majority will say that they prefer to spay at a time when hormones are more settled.  And, if it makes the job easier for them, then it's less trauma for the bitch.  And I like a section over and done with quickly.

Just to add, our girl had oxytocin injection Sat night, (always out of hours)! before delivering a pup, thankfully everything was fine :-)

Have to say years ago before the internet etc. always ended up having many of our Pom's having oxytocin before havng a pup and never had the problems stated above. 

Poor girl I'm glad shes better. No, definately no oxytocin before full dilation and first pup. I've used it but its been on a third pup that she just couldn't get out. Have also used it, after a normal delivery and the vet has come round the next day and checked pups and given a shot just to make sure everything is out and there is no retained material in there.

its been used after all done and when the last pup was stuck and bron dead :(

hope her girl is doing good now ,hows the pups doing? x

I spoke to them again last night and the bitch is home and feeding all her babies which is just fab after all she has been through. All 13 are still doing well, he said there is one little tiny who he is topping up with a bottle as he is a little bit weak but the rest are feeding strongly. Fingers crossed all will be well after such a stressful time. That will be her first and last litter bless her heart.

what a bad time she has had ,but im so glad its a happy ending mandyc x

my last litter last year was a nightmare after contractions slowing down and hours waiting we took her to the vet to be examined she was scanned then given a oxytocin injection ..having first pup in the vets just before we arrived home approx 20 mins she had another in the car , just got her and puppies into whelp box she had another eventually having all puppies (6) within a very short time.
Two of the puppies second born and third born had fits and eventually after much heartache had to be PTS they were the biggest good weights beautifully marked etc:
Mum then had an infection so was put on antibiotics and her milk dried up so I ended up hand rearing them although Mum let them suckle and was a fab mummy cleaning and cuddling.

I know in my heart that I should have gone with my gut instinct and waited a little longer but I listened to too many people including the vet !!
(who was not my usual vet)

As for Oxytocin I think it has a place but is used to quickly.

I feel I am very lucky to have my girl with me today after that litter (her last) . Be wary and question everything.

I don't breed personally, but these are the contraindications/ warnings for use of oxytocin:

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Intervet_Schering-Plough/Oxytocin-S___10_iu_ml_Solution_for_injection/-29624.html

It says to be sure they are fully dilated and not obstructed, but nothing about the need for having given birth to a pup already (though it's talking about all the species it's used in (including ones that tend to be uniparous), I think it would still mention it specifically if it wasn't to be used before a pup had been born - this is the official data sheet). The having given birth to a pup will indicate that the bitch is dilated, and that the pups are likely to be positioned correctly/ small enough to be passed, which is probably where the vets are coming from that say they won't use it if no pups have appeared -.an 'alternative' to scanning/ Xraying to check I suppose, knowing the bitch has already successfully produced one. :-) There is also a dose variation - a lower dose should produce less forceful contractions.

There are of course some breeds that are known for having whelping problems/ large pups that they may struggle to pass - which I would expect the vet to take into account. Out of interest, did they do a manual exam to check she was dilated and check a blood calcium?

I'm glad that the girl and her pups are doing well. :-) That's the main thing. :-) And I hope your girl's whelping goes smoothly.

And because of my naff broadband connection was too late to edit post.... 1st stage labour can last a long time, especially in first time whelpers - don't know if it was clear when you were having the conversations with him (I know things can get misunderstood, especially if it was his first time whelping a bitch) whether she had produced a water sac - I just (without knowing what was said between you, him and vet) wonder if she had reached second stage labour and was actually dilated and ready?

http://www.hopevets.com/userfiles/File/Whelping.pdf

You have to scroll down a bit to get to stages of labour.

Hi,

Yes you see this was my concern, that the oxy was given too soon, she had been 'Leaking fluid' as he described on and off for 4 hrs and panting heavily, i think her labour may of been slow and she wasnt 100% dilated, the vet done an internal but i am not convinced ALL vets know what their doing when it comes to that (JMO) she may have been dilated but just not quite enough to start contractions.
I did tell him that his girls mother (my girl) was in this stage for 15hrs!!!! Then went on to produce 10 puppies over a further 7hr period, all fine just slowly at her own pace.
I do think the oxy was the cause of the rupture. The other thing the vet said to him after was that 3 puppies were floating in her abdomen as they had fell out through the tear, this i would of thought would also indicate the rupture had not happened that long ago as surely she would be VERY sick, not wagging her tail....i maybe wrong on that.

There seems to be very many different takes on this subject but thought i would add this link as it is quite a detailed bit of info on giving oxy in dogs
http://www.seefido.com/dog-breeding/html/administering_oxytocin_on_dog.htm

Id like to thank Mandy for all her support when things when wrong for us with our Jade........

Jade is the bitch mandy is talking about in this thread and our special girl.

We are happy to say Jade pulled through and turned out to be a fantastic mum, it was touch and go for the 1st week but she was strong and loved her babies, so never gave up.

Unfortunatly we lost 2 puppies, the smallest and one beautiful female to inhaled pheumonia. The onset was rapid and even with vet treatment they passed within a few hours of 1st symptoms. The other 11 puppies survived despite being told we would be lucky if any would after bottle feeding them!

We are totally against using oxytocin after our terrible time with Jade but one of the hardest things for us was the fact that we didnt even give our consent for it to be used!!!  The vet said to my husband that she wanted to give it to her and as my hubby wasnt sure about it he called Mandy............once off the phone my husband said to the vet he would rather leave the oxytocin and she said she had already given it to her!!..........my husband was so upset about it and was straight on the phone saying he couldnt believe they done it without his permission.....a few minutes later she was rushed in for a c-sections and we were told she was fighting for her life.

The whole thing was a mess and the vet was of the opinion that breeds such as our jade would be exstinct if vets like her were not around!!........then handed us a bucket full of puppies and said good luck with them im sure they will all be dead by the next day.

We feel 100% that she ended up fighting for her life due to the oxytocin as she was totally fine before she had the injection, and the vet should have never given it to her without our permission, for this reason we would never trust her again.......she was fine not even contracting hard, panting but fully dilated...the vet said that there wasnt even a puppy waiting to be pushed out so surly thats a sign they were stuck?

Anyhow Jade is doing really well now and loves her baby boy Deisel who lives with her and at just over a year is bigger then her!lol

xx

thankyou for the update :0) the vet should be struck off!! but glad 11 pups did well and your boy is doing great :) xx

good to share these stories as if it can prevent someone else and their dog going through the same thing its a good job done.

I too still feel that the vet was in the wrong and sounds like she had a terrible attitude too.

But the main thing being that jade is fit and well and the lovely diesel is doing fab....nice to see you on here by the way lol! :)