After reading another thread about struggling to keep new borns alive I thought that it would be goood for people to hear the real life experiences of strugglinmg new born pups either surviving or nor surviving.
In the thread I read it seemed that the 3 that struggled to suck either died or needed an op for a cleft pallet that was not visable until later on. so from that thread it is a 33% survival rate. I KNOW that is not a true perception but I did wonder how many pups that were struggling at birth lead onto a healthy life???? Or how many lead onto death or a poorly life????
Hope that makes sense :)
Lea :)

It can be very hard to come to terms with the fact that nature sometimes gets things wrong. Also that with animals which have several young at a time, the natural order is not for all of them to survive. Putting a lot of effort into saving weakly ones isn't always in their best interests, although it's human nature to try.

I have to say the few times (actually can only think of it happening ONCE in pups, more often in kittens as I've had far more litters of them) I do not struggle when a pup is half the size of others and lagging behind or having problems in any other way, I let it go. I would never consider repairing a cleft palate. I learnt my lesson from cats, saved too many weaklings that grew up to be sickly adults with shorter lives. It's a totally different story if it's just a case of mum being short of milk or there being a large litter so some need a bit of help.

To be honest if a puppy is not gaining despite supplementary feeding my view is that rearing should not be attempted in case there are serious underlying problems that even if the pup survives may impact on it's future health and welfare.

I kept a weakling pup going to day 11, it fed from both Mum, and was getting more than enough by bottle to gain weight yet didn't so I put to sleep.

Helping a smaller pup get extra turns, and fair shares so they can catch up is different.

Sometimes we have to listen to mother nature, and ignore her at our peril.

I had 2 small pups that wouldn't suckle & were 6oz, compared to the others who were between 10 & 12oz at birth. My husband & I took a pup each & were feeding round the clock. On day 2, one little girl gave up her fight, but the other gained her strength & started suckling from mum on day 3 :) She grew up to be a beautiful healthy girl with no problems. I have to add that the mum was totally uninterested in the pup who eventually died. It was as if she just knew instinctively that there was something wrong. I think it's human nature to try to preserve life, but sometimes mother nature takes over. Heartbreaking, but true. :(

I hand reared a litter a few months ago and had loads of problems with one pup. She weighed 6oz, mine are normally around 16oz. I nearly lost her a fair few times but kept going. I was told off numerous breeders to let her go but my heart ruled my head!! She was also blind in one eye after her mother attacked her.

I kept her myself as she needs an op at a later date on her eye and I think I knew she may have health problems.

She is now 15 weeks old and has been to the vets more times than my 8 year old! I love her to bits and she is a happy little thing but I do now understand why people make the choice to let them go.

> I kept a weakling pup going to day 11

I find that even more heartbreaking than losing one at birth.  I had a weakling pup some years ago.  Mum really didn't want to know, and moved away if I put it near her.

After trying for 9 days I just had to admit defeat as weight wasn't even creeping on.  I was sobbing when I asked the vet to put to sleep.

I had a pup that struggled from birth, I syringe fed him but also allowed him to suckle from mum on the rare occasions that he seemed up to it. He was seen by my vet a few times, on antibiotics and biosolvon. He would gasp for breath at times and it was deeply distressing. I literally nursed him day and night for a fortnight, rarely able to actually put him down. I  think I was badly advised by my then breed mentor, who was of the opinion that I should try and save him at all costs. I lost 6 lbs in weight over those those early days (I am only 8st 5 normally anyway) with the stress and worry, I cannot begin to describe how terrible a time it was for us all as a family, but mainly for the puppy :-( he just didn't gain weight and was 6 oz at 14 days old - his birth weight.
I took him to the vets that last time and vet was lovely, told me I had given him more of a chance than many would and that in reality he never was going to be a normal dog (probably under developed lungs she said) and so he was PTS. I was devasted but when she brought him back out to me after (I was advised not to witness such a young pup be pts as sometimes it is difficult to get the needle in), he looked so peaceful and through my tears I knew I had done the right thing. I have big regrets though keeping him going for so long but I was ill advised. In reality, when there was no improvement after several days on the antibiotics he should have been pts. But it is all in hindsight and I had to be sure in my own mind that there was no other option. If it happened again though I would not let a pup suffer for so long .

A friend of mine had a litter last year, all advice was given not to breed their dog to the chip shop owners dog. Anyway ignored said advice so when the time came for mum to have the pups I recieved a phone call for help, I went to lend a hand. Poor mum was straining with pups much bigger than I would expect.
Anyway, 9 puppies later there was one with a crank in his tail, after a couple of days I was informed all babies and mum were doing well apart from crank.

They were having to hand feed, and he was putting weight on but constantly felt like a balloon. 2 trips to the vets and they were told all is fine, I went to see the puppies a couple of days later and looked at the lil guy. I asked if he had been going to the toilet, well I never really got an answer so told them how to encourage puppy to go, just to check that he can go properly. Another 2 days passed and I was told they have been un able to get him to go but didnt think they were doing it right.

I advised them to go to the vet and tell them all this and to check that this pup was able to toilet. Turned out he was not fully formed, he didnt have a back passage. Poor little thing was literally eating until he would eventually burst. How the vet missed it initially I dont know.

The pup suffered for around 7 days (I think), so would I try with a newborn myself in such a situation? Probably as I couldnt not, but if the pup was so obviously not going to make it or was obviously suffering I think I would have to let it go.

2years ago we had a litter of 13 Ess pups 3 died at birth .1 of the girl pups wouldnt suckle after 2days ,i was worred sick i started to feed her day and night then her breathing changed and started to get shallow ,by this time she was 8days old and had been cheack by the vet sayin she was ok and couldnt find anything wrong ,the next day i had to take her back to the vets i knew her time was up id not slept for about 9days and broke down at the vets sadly she was put to sleep i was heart broken ,i dont think i would ever keep a pup going knowning in my heart somthing was wrong with her :(

We had a litter of 3, 13 days ago, 2 are going great guns and gaining weight brilliantly, the smallest was 10ozs at birth and after a couple of days stopped suckling..trip to vet who advised bottle feeding..I have managed to get her back onto mum and she is really fighting her way to the milk bar when shes hungry and managing to stay there..with help from us of course. She has gone from 10ozs to 1lb 10z today, her eyes are open and she seems to be doing ok. We are at the vet tonight and will tell him everything and see what he says..and take it from there...I want to keep this one as she is the colour I was hoping for, but we will see. If she is suffering in any way then I know what has to be done.

> I want to keep this one as she is the colour I was hoping for,

This raises another issue, should a puppy that was a poor doer, even if they survive and seem healthy be used for breeding, my own view is not, and such a puppy if reared by me would not have it's endorsements lifted and be allowed to join the gene pool.

As any puppy I keep for myself is kept with the view to being bred from to continue the family line I would not keep such a  puppy.

So my next ethical dilemma is would it be fair to sell/give such a puppy to a new home if it may have health issues, be unthrifty? 

I am not talking about a smaller pup that just needs extra milk-bar time, and is otherwise perfectly healthy and catches it's litter-mates up, or is just a fraction smaller at homing time.

If this puppy is suffering in any way then she will be PTS...I want to be 100% sure she will be healthy in every way. If anything isnt right, shes not suffering and will lead as normal a life as possible I will keep her and she will be spayed. Her health and well being is more important than breeding from her..Im sorry if it came across as me keeping her just to breed from her..that wasnt my intention. Just off to the vet now..will let you know the outcome.

> Her health and well being is more important than breeding from her..Im sorry if it came across as me keeping her just to breed from her..

That wasn't the intention of my post.

The thing is most of us that are breeders have a limit on the number of dogs we can keep, and so keeping a non breeding one means you won't be able to keep one to continue the line until a few years down the line if at all.

Of course we all have non breeding (passengers, biscuit crunchers), but these are usually our oldies that have retired from showing/breeding.

Brainless, I have just started another thread...would like some advice if you know anything about this please or from anyone else.

We had a pup go backwards with the weight gain at around a week old, she started being sick turned out she had a stomach infection. anyway, after antibiotics she picked up although was still smaller than the rest of the litter (apart from one very small pup who was never a problem once he got going) she ended up being the smallest at 8 weeks, was obviously not going to make a show dog, but was the sweetest little thing! I got some photo's this week from her owners, she's having her first season at 10 months, and I wouldn't recognise her as she's grown at least as big as the others!! She's been fighting fit since they took her home, and is the apple of her owners' eyes. She's a lovely healthy dog, so I would always try to save one in a similar condition.

I also have learnt the hard way that probably nature knows best.  I had two litters last year, and I lost (the first one I ever have) a puppy at 48 hours in one of my first litter,  I found him cold and limp and tried to bring him back but to no avail and he slipped away in front of us.  I had always dismissed ideas that you should not try your hardest to save them no matter what and that it was natures way so when my next litter was born and I had another one that did not thrive did everything possible to keep him going.  Unfortunately I had to have him put to sleep at 15 weeks of age and I do believe that had it would have been for the best not to have intervened.  In both bitches I know that they are fantastic mothers and the loss is not down to them not looking after them.  I have been  very lucky with only haveing healthy and surviving puppies so I suppose at some time the unfortuate happens but I know as hard as it will be I will take the advice that was given to me at the time and let them go.  If it was a case of the mother not feeding them then it would be different and I would intervene.

The few pups we have had to intervene with have never made it, days and nights of syringe feeding (not because mum wouldnt feed) but because they were weaker than the rest, hearbreaking! we had pups we were fostering once from a friend, (mother died after a c section and she had 11) he couldnt manage 11 by himself so i took 4, leaving him and his mum with 7, i got the to 8 days old all seemed thriving, then all died in 1 day? i was gutted, my friends did the same? canine herpes? or what was the cause? so sometimes intervening is not correct, but i always try.

Jean SW, I wish all those people who think that breeding dogs is a great way to make money, and that it's something the bitch just manages by herself, would read these posts--I don't know that I'd ever want to go through the anxiety and heartbreak many of you have experienced. I heard this from a neighbour of mine who told me I'd made a "mistake" by getting a (third) dog--she told me I should have got a bitch, made money and let her do all the work!!! I was speechless--this is an otherwise sensible woman who keeps and breeds horses. What can you say???? That's still polite, that is.