Every so often I have a wander round pups for sale in my breed.
I am confused on a certain well known site there are 11 adverts 9 cross breeds 2 pure breed all are accredited breeders. Is this not very confusing for a new owner, I thought the idea was to point people in the right direction.

Yep that site has more holes in it than French Cheese

It is very confusing, the site concerned should do a sweep and remove the accredited breeder status from the cross breeds being advertised as they are being untruthful if cross breeds are all they produce. However, there may be a loop hole as they could well be accredited breeders with the KC pedigree litters also, which have all health checks DNA etc as per the accredited scheme.  But if these same people also produce cross litters they are twisting the truth but not lying in saying that they are accredited breeders.

But common sense should still prevail that they should not be allowed to mention being accredited if the pups are not KC with all the accredited scheme covers as they obviously are not covered by the scheme. :-(

> I am confused on a certain well known site there are 11 adverts 9 cross breeds 2 pure breed all are accredited breeders.

You're not the only one! Have you tackled the KC about these ABS members breeding cross bred pups?

I do know that there is nothing to stop anybody from claiming to be an accredited breeder, even when they are not, although they are not allowed to use the KC logo for ABS members. One such breeder who claimed they were an acredited breeder told people they were not KC accredited but were RSPCA accredited, I am pretty certain the RSPCA do not have an Accredited Breeder scheme, but I could be wrong?

Looking at new accredited breeders in my main breed, there is one listed that has not bred 5 litters, not bred any stud book number holders, is not a breed club member, does not hold a kennel name, and whose name nobody seems to have heard of!

> Looking at new accredited breeders in my main breed, there is one listed that has not bred 5 litters, not bred any stud book number holders, is not a breed club member, does not hold a kennel name, and whose name nobody seems to have heard of!

Working lines, perhaps?

I have contacted the KC will let you know if I get a reply

Well on that site this week they have made 75% of breeders council licensed,
Ive just rang a friend who is running an ad and asked her why she is council licensed
and she isnt and never sent anything in plus she is a verified member but never sent anything in to verify herself.

thats the best thing to do, personnel.

In my local paper an 'accredited breeder' is selling crosses with flash names.
At Crufts I tackled the KC about two breeders in my breed with Accredited Breeder status who have never bred a litter in my breed. The reply was that they have bred litters in other breeds then it is OK, and yet as soon as they do have a litter they will be flagged up on the KC website as the breeders of alledged better and healthier puppies than those who are not members of the scheme. I know it doesn't actually state that but that is what the general public are led to believe.
Beats me why people would part with hard earned cash to 'buy' a status that basically means nothing.

is there a list of accredited breeders on the KC website?

Yes, if you go to 'Find A Puppy' and search your breed, when you click on an area at the top of the page it gives you a list of Counties and you click to find ones in your area.

> Beats me why people would part with hard earned cash to 'buy' a status that basically means nothing

>Looking at new accredited breeders in my main breed, there is one listed that has not bred 5 litters, not bred any stud book number holders, is not a breed club member, does not hold a kennel name, and whose name nobody seems to have heard of!

I disagree with some of the comments made- I have only bred one litter of one pup which I kept so have in actual fact never sold a puppy that I have bred and yet I have joined the accredited breeder scheme because I believe in the principles it promotes and want to do things right.
I have only been showing in my breed for four years and am a member of three of our breed clubs. It may take me ten years or probably more to breed five litters so I am not sure why that accolade is sought after. Neither have I bred a Champion I am trying for my first Junior Warrant now.
I understand people who have been doing this for years may think it a farce when newcomers join the ABS but some us are just trying to do things right and try hard to attend breed seminars,  learn about our breed and join schemes that encourage good practice. It can be disheartening when others pooh pooh this.
I am sure many will have a different view but wanted to make my point

I applied for the scheme,because the practices and principles they required were my usual practise anyway i.e. diet sheets etc so why not be acknowledged as a caring breeder,It says nothing about breeding champions,just healthy well balanced  puppies from experienced breeders.The fee means free advertising of litters for which previously I had to pay for.It is a pity that they only have my years of breeding[ prefix registered 1967 compounded for life for 10 guineas!]as proof of my standards,I would welcome a visit from an inspector to give the accolade more credibility.it seems a bit meaningless just a posh certificate for£10 at the moment,which looks impressive for puppy customers.I find since seeing the TV expose people wanting a puppy as a pet, not for breeding or show, are increasingly not caring about KC registration,they just want a pup from a reputable breeder,who does not inbreed and can offer reassurance about inherited problems etc.

> proof of my standards,I would welcome a visit from an inspector to give the accolade more credibility.

The KC are appointing lots of field officers to do this. Another thing you might find interesting is that the puppy registration fees are due to go up again and when they do the members of the ABs will find their registration fees will not change. The new increase will mean non members will be paying more than an ABS member to register their pups.

I disagree with some of the comments made- I have only bred one litter of one pup which I kept so have in actual fact never sold a puppy that I have bred and yet I have joined the accredited breeder scheme because I believe in the principles it promotes and want to do things right.
I have only been showing in my breed for four years and am a member of three of our breed clubs. It may take me ten years or probably more to breed five litters so I am not sure why that accolade is sought after. Neither have I bred a Champion I am trying for my first Junior Warrant now.

I didn't mean it like that -and I very much disagree with the 5 litters thing as well. My point was not only had this person not earned any of the accolades, including not being a breed club member, they also had not even got a kennel name. After all, being a breed club member and getting a kennel name is something anyone can do, and if you're serious enough about a breed to want to breed it, surely you do at least one of these two. So to not have ANY of this sounds very odd indeed to me.

It is quite possible for any breed council to set the standard for their own breed as to what they expect an accredited breeder to do. Our own breed has recently been voting on this. At present hip scoring is only a recommendation and not mandatory and some clubs wanted it changed to make it compulsory for AB's. Unfortunately this was not carried on a vote, however it IS compulsory to belong to 3 breed clubs and as such the breed council ultimately have the power to stop people joining who are not suitable. All breeds set their own rules for AB's over and above the normal KC rules which are after all basic husbandry / code of ethics which should be followed by everyone who cares. Most clubs seem totally unaware of this and are not using this to their advantage. I suggest going through your breed council reps to make AB's what you want.

> My point was not only had this person not earned any of the accolades, including not being a breed club member, they also had not even got a kennel name. After all, being a breed club member and getting a kennel name is something anyone can do, and if you're serious enough about a breed to want to breed it, surely you do at least one of these two. So to not have ANY of this sounds very odd indeed to me.

That's a fair point- I do hear lots of experienced breeders laughing at the thought of newbies joining the scheme and sometimes I get upset by that. Of course we don't know as much as they do and of course it will take us years to learn but I think really they should be setting the example and encouraging newcomers to join and to think about getting things right rather than viewing it that we are devaluing the scheme which is how I have heard it put.

I think what everyone has missed with this thread is that you don't even have to own a dog to become and Accredited Breeder with the KC. Their answer is that should you have a dog and want to breed then you will abide by their Code of Conduct. That is my reasoning for NOT joining the ABS. How can an officer come and check you out when you haven't even got a dog to show what condition you keep them in! I do believe the the ABS should be something that you are invitied to join. There should be say a three tier system. ABS were you are invited to join and have proven your worth, one were you breed and are seen to keep your dogs in good conditions and do all the health testing required and may be invited to join once you are approved and then the third tier for people (who in my opinion should not be permitted to be KC registered) and do not do the the health tests etc.
I am at the moment chasing up on a breeder who breeds Golden, Labradors, Weimaraners, Cocker Spaniels, Cockapoos, Cavipoos, Westipoos and Labradoodles. No health tests done, breeding from KC registered dogs with 5 months between litters and KC registering the pups. Now, okay they aren't ABS but puppies are still permitted to be registered that are the produce of bitches whelping at only 5 months between litters. The complaint is in with the local Council that they are licensed with. But I am very upset that the KC are quite happy to register these litters.
When the KC get a proper system in place then I will consider becoming ABS. However, I have only bred 4 litters in a 9 year period, have 4 stud book numbers, am member of several breed clubs and do Elbow scoring which is not a requirement of my breed.

I think what everyone has missed with this thread is that you don't even have to own a dog to become and Accredited Breeder with the KC.

No that is not correct. I have an application form in front of me (came with the Gazette or something) and it clearly states "An applicant must own a bitch of current breeding age of each of the breed(s) listed."


Also:

"If an applicant has not previously registered a litter, their ABS membership will be held in pending status until such a time as they submit an application to register a litter."

Well that must be a new one, it didn't use to have that on the form.

It has been on there a while Alison as initially there was some confusion as people who wanted to join believed they could not as they thought they had to have bred more than one litter to be a member. I contacted the KC about it last year to help out a lady I know who wanted to be a member.

and if you're serious enough about a breed to want to breed it, surely you do at least one of these two. So to not have ANY of this sounds very odd indeed to me.

It wouldn't be unusual in the working world.  Many working folk don't bother with affixes and are much more likely to belong to gundog clubs rather than breed clubs.

> It wouldn't be unusual in the working world.  Many working folk don't bother with affixes and are much more likely to belong to gundog clubs rather than breed clubs.

I would say the same, as I mentioned earlier. There are people coming into various breeds that are Working lines only, and some of them DO reg with KC... so even though they may not be part of a Breed Club or show or have an affix, they might still want to be part of ABS. It's not part of ABS that they have to be breed club members, or show. As we have found out, Breed Club members are often bound by much tougher regs than the ABS. But it would be wrong to insist breed club membership as part & parcel of ABS membership, for those who breed working lines.

I really meant gundog work where, like showing, dogs must be kc registered (on the breed register) to compete, but I do take your point that it could be similar in working trials too.

I'm not up on the current requirements for the ABS, but I thought that membership of breed clubs, while being recognised, was not a requirement?

I would say the same, as I mentioned earlier. There are people coming into various breeds that are Working lines only, and some of them DO reg with KC... so even though they may not be part of a Breed Club or show or have an affix, they might still want to be part of ABS.

I can't see it myself. So many working breeders do not hip score, for instance, so how could they be ABS members?

Also breed clubs are for all in the breed, show, working or Pet, most of our breed Club membership are owners of dogs that are companions only.

Those breeds that still have a job to do usually have working branches, certainly with the Retrievers they run Field Trials.

I fail to see how anyone truly interested in a breed will not be a member of a breed related society, even if that is a separate gundog etc one.  Surely the Gindog clubs are affiliated to their relevant breed clubs????

How else do they select future breeding partners, check their health past track record etc?

In belgians we even have a KC affiliated breed club that is for those interested in working their dogs (whatever form of work) -the Working BSD Society.

Also breed clubs are for all in the breed, show, working or Pet, most of our breed Club membership are owners of dogs that are companions only.

Those breeds that still have a job to do usually have working branches, certainly with the Retrievers they run Field Trials.

I fail to see how anyone truly interested in a breed will not be a member of a breed related society, even if that is a separate gundog etc one.  Surely the Gindog clubs are affiliated to their relevant breed clubs????

You are right Brainless, breed clubs do run working tests and field trials and many competitive working folk do belong to them, but not all and not as many as belong to the gundog clubs.  Gundog clubs are not affiliated to breed clubs, but I believe they are to the KC.
As an example, I belong to 1 breed club (that covers my area), but 9 gundog clubs.

So many working breeders do not hip score

Whilst I'm sure there are some, amongst those I mix with, and certainly in the area I live, do health test.  They may have been slower than their show counterparts in embracing health testing, but this is not the case now.