Words can not explain how i feel at the moment.
We have lost our entire litter of 8 puppies born on the 25th.

I am hoping some people here can help me shed some light on what has happened.. if anyone has known this to happen before and what i should do. they say 2 heads are better than one. but either way.. i am utterly devistated. Tomorrow i have to dig graves for these beautiful babies who didnt even get a propper chance at life. I havent stopped crying since this happened.

some history.
my bitch is 2.5 years old. This was her 4th season, 1st mating/pregnancy. She was UTD on shots, totally normal and healthy.
She had an uneventful pregnancy, no problems etc. Originally scanned at 11 in there.. then 2 weeks later 8 remained..

she started to go in to the first stages of labour on day 60. temp dropped at 5pm, first pup came along at 11:20. He was breech and required alot of help getting out. When out he was lifeless but my husband got him back and we dried him off and he fed. The rest came at very quick intervalls, some 15 mins apart others 45 mins apart.
Each time she failed to break the sac, walked off, or just cleaned her self up and left me to sort the puppy.

we lost one boy from we think her rolling on him at 24 hours old, and another from going in to shock following emergency surgery we required a day later. This was devistating to us and i still havent recovered from this. 

She let the puppies feed but would growl at them from time to time. She woudl snap/bark at them. because of this for the first 2 days we didnt leave her for more than a potty break. I stayed in with her to help and also for my own reasurance.
day 4 comes along and she is doing much better. She is clumsy, kept knocking them with her feet, kept almost sitting on them but i kept moving them and putting them safe.
She would shiver, even though the room was draft free and kept warm. A blanket/heating mat on her would stop the shivering.
She would constantly keep nesting in other places bar her box, my bed in the room, the floor, blankets, my propper bed.. everywhere.
She had a slight temperature of 39.4 for a day but took her to the vets and she had dropped it.

she wouldnt eat her food (RC puppy) but would steal my bacon sandwich.. i managed to get her to drink goats milk and eggs and was giving her calcium supliments. I tried to get my vet to give her a shot to boost this but he said i was worrying for nothing.  On exam he couldnt feel anything but she was still leaking blood and discharge.

Pups were gaining weight well, doubled weight since birth, no problems feeding or anything like that. Her milk was fine, all came in, very easly flowing.

Yesterday i had to go and get my hand x-rayed. I left her at 5pm after checking and making sure all pups were fine, my husband got home before me at 7:20 and we always go down to see how everyone is.
all 6 were dead. Some had cuts on their faces and necks, some didnt. All were bleeding from their noses.

I am just utterly devistated. I need to know what happened. Her sister had a litter last year and was a perfect mother so foolishly i thought she would be like her... or atlast not as bad as this.

Has anyone had anything like this.. what did i do wrong, i cant stop blaming my self thinking i should have just taken them away from her and bottle fed till a foster mom could be found.

What do i do with her, do i spay and never do this again with her... was it a one off.. could i have prevented this?

I am just at a loss.

Hi...I'm desperately sorry to hear this, you must be in terrible shock! The shivering & nesting makes me wonder if she had an infection. My girl shivered & started nesting again when she had her litter 2 years ago, & was on a 5 day course of antibiotics. Did the vet check to see if perhaps Mum had gone into shock? What also sounds worrying is the fact that the pups had cuts & were bleeding from the nose. Did you ask the Vet what could have caused this? I'm not saying your girl killed her own pups, but it has been heard of when the Mum goes into shock. Again....I'm so sorry, my heart goes out to you :(

I'm so so sorry

>Hi...I'm desperately sorry to hear this, you must be in terrible shock! The shivering & nesting makes me wonder if she had an infection. My girl shivered & started nesting again when she had her litter 2 years ago, & was on a 5 day course of antibiotics. Did the vet check to see if perhaps Mum had gone into shock? What also sounds worrying is the fact that the pups had cuts & were bleeding from the nose. Did you ask the Vet what could have caused this? I'm not saying your girl killed her own pups, but it has been heard of when the Mum goes into shock. Again....I'm so sorry, my heart goes out to you<

I took her to the vets and twice, he took her temp and said it was normal when she was there with him.
The cuts.. i dont know how they happened. she was so clumbsy with them and rough. I dont know what to think.

The problem is she is by far one of the nicest dogs i have ever owned, her temperement is something commented on by so many as to how good she is. This is totally out of character for her. She is such an affectionate loving dog.

She is still shivering now, still low tone growling at the other girls in the house as and when they come by. shes just burried her food and is sitll nesting on blankets.  i'm just going to go take her temp again and give her her antibiotics for the night

Shes now on 5 days of antibiotics

I'm so sorry to read this - it mut be devasating for you all.

I can't offer any explanations or any theories - but I know that for the first two weeks we have never left a litter alone with mum - we've even slept in shifts just in case a clumsy mum stands or sits on a puppy.  But that's no consolation to you now :(

{{hugs}}

It seems clear what has happened but why is really the answer you need however whatever the answer I personally would never breed from a bitch that has not been able to be a good mother.     

It will be a lot for you to take in for sure. 

> What do i do with her, do i spay and never do this again with her... was it a one off.. could i have prevented this?
>
>

I don't think you could have prevented it.  But I personally would have her spayed, and accept that she wasn't meant to be a mum.    I am so sorry for your loss.

Had you ruled out Eclampsia?  The shivering, not settling, etc suggests it, and bitches suffering from this will carry aroudn, try to bury and even kill their pups.

It does sound like she killed them and wasn't yet settled into motherhood.

A bitch that I bred killed one of her pups (bit out it's tongue) when it wouldn't stop crying due to heat in a heatwave in the USA, she was only just two years of age by days, when the pups were born, and got beside herself it they cried.

The owners had gone out leaving her able to exit the whelping room, not realising that due to the extreme heat doing so would make the room too hot.

She was a great Mum after that, but they couldn't' bring themselves to breed from her again.

> Had you ruled out Eclampsia?  The shivering, not settling, etc suggests it, and bitches suffering from this will carry aroudn, try to bury and even kill their pups.

I suggested this to the Vet and he said i was worrying over nothing. This is what i assumed, i took her there today and wanted a blood test and he said i would be wasting my money. I did say i didnt mind because if this was the cause then i know it could be prevented and she wouldnt do this again with proper mangement. Ended up leaving with some Antibiotics and nothing. I was too emotionally drained to fight him.

When my husband found her he said she was totally calm and licking them as if nothing was wrong.
Shes still shivering now, i have a blanket over her to keep her warm. Temperature at 38.1 so perfectly normal. Shes flopped on my feet and wanting to stay close to me at all times.

I forgot to add that she would have boughts of panting. short shallow panting. Again.. i mentioned this to my vet and he didnt think much of it.

My first thought was eclampsia as well, and if it is, she DOES still need calcium or she could die.

How truly awful to loose the whole litter :-(

I would think Eclampsia, although the temperature is normal.. Shock is also a possibility, both of these are serious conditions.. and If I were in your shoes, I would get my girl to another vet.. even if just for a 2nd opinion. 

Shock could also make her temperament unstable, which would account for the possible attack on the pups.. it could also account for the clumsyness, she must be very dissorientated :-(

What i dont understand is if you guys assume this from what little i have said.. yet i say the exact same to a vet and i get told i am worrying over nothing.

If  she does not have Eclampsia and i keep giving her calcium will it do her any harm?

How could this form after only 4 days of pups?

What do i need to look for?

Shes still growling randomly, still digging stuff up, i cant say if she is more lethargic as all 3 of them are flopped on the floor asleep the same!

im so sorry, hope mom is ok xx

Very, very sorry to hear of your loss.

Had something similar, twice,  back in the late 80's early 90's.  It was when we first started using high protein foods (suitable for inwhelp and lactating bitches) on both occasions after whelping the bitch would not settle, kept trying to hide the puppies, picking them up and throwing them around.   They would get in to whelping box, lie down, then immediately get up, shiver, turn round, lie back down, move all the pups, it went on all the time like that.  The vet gave both times gave a calcium injection and a very light sedative for 24 hours to enable them to settle which they did, and went on to rear the pups normally.   The second time it happened the vet was at a wedding, but he came out within 5 minutes in his best bib and tucker to attend to my bitch.

Nowadays I use normal food (i.e. not high in protein or anything else) for in whelp bitches and when they first whelp for the first few days, we use white fish, or chicken breast and wholemeal bread soaked in milk, also put honey once a day (to raise their blood sugar level) on the wholemeal bread.  Then after about a week we introduce a suitable kibble, this seems to work well and we do not have any more problems.

I think that you should take her back to the vet, a blood test will tell you if her calcium levels are too low, or possibly the antibiotic she is on is not the right one and may need changing.

I have no ideas on what has happened but just wanted to add my ((((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))) to you, so very very very sorry xxx

How tragic, I'm so sorry that this has happened.

> I think that you should take her back to the vet, a blood test will tell you if her calcium levels are too low

And ask him to do a blood glucose level too, this will rule out diabetes. When blood sugar drops to very low levels the subject can become aggressive, cold and clumsy.
That is why some humans in a hypo-glycemic state seem drunk.

>If  she does not have Eclampsia and i keep giving her calcium will it do her any harm?

No, but it might not be getting into her system quickly enough.

>How could this form after only 4 days of pups?

I had a bitch come down with it very badly (shivering, digging, hiding, panicking etc) after only three days, when the milk really started to come in. I'd made the mistake of supplementing her with calcium during her pregnancy, so her system got out of balance and the levels crashed.

> I had a bitch come down with it very badly (shivering, digging, hiding, panicking etc) after only three days, when the milk really started to come in. I'd made the mistake of supplementing her with calcium during her pregnancy, so her system got out of balance and the levels crashed.

This was my thought, the pups did very well to double their weight in such a short time, so the milk must have come through with a vengeance, so draining the bitches system.

As the OP mentions giving calcium I did wonder whether they had been supplementing before whelping (as we now know a  bad idea, but one that still persists in some quarters), or whether the type of calcium given is not the kind easily absorbed, but enough to mask the full blown symptoms of Eclampsia, but not enough to avoid the behavioural changes associated with it.

I too would want a blood Test and would be changing vets, as I did when I had issues of a vet not wanting to take my concerns seriously, and loosing part of my second litter.

What i dont understand is if you guys assume this from what little i have said.. yet i say the exact same to a vet and i get told i am worrying over nothing.

Unfortunately, unless they are involved with breeding themselves, many Vets have little knowledge and experience about whelping or rearing a litter.  That's why it's always best to have an experienced mentor, even better if they are in your breed as they can all be a little different, to guide through the experience.

I know that you had a difficult situation, but no experienced breeder would have left such a new litter unattended.  Your poor bitch still isn't right and certainly needs help from a Vet who understands about breeding dogs. :)

> yet i say the exact same to a vet and i get told i am worrying over nothing.
>
> Unfortunately, unless they are involved with breeding themselves, many Vets have little knowledge and experience about whelping or rearing a litter.&nbsp;

Sadly a good friend of mine lost their bitch before the birth of her second litter with quite rare (in dogs) pre-eclampsia.

The vet too thought they were worrying over nothing until she dropped dead at my friends feet.

Now they know to look for fluid retention (puffy limbs) etc, and were able to spot problems early with her daughter.

I'm in agreement if my bitch were shivering I would have been on alert with a vet check there is something wrong. I don't understand why your vet is not worried. Panting and continued bleeding, digging etc are all normal, shivering isn't.

Personally I would have her to a different vet, I would be very worried about eclampsia, she is still not right, have a second opinion please.

She's obviously killed her pups, I never leave my bitch alone at all for the first 2 weeks there is always someone there day and night, and even after that she is never left if I start to go out, always my mum or one of my brothers come over someone who knows dogs inside out and can cope with an emergency and my bitch has always been an excellent mother, but I still do it.

But, you can't go back, what is done is done, from what you have said, I think your bitch is ill somehow to still be shivering, take her to a different vet, I know I've said that 3 times now, but just take her.

I'm really sorry for your loss, you must be devastated, just please don't lose your bitch too.

Hi,
Nothing really to add, but Eclampsia was my first thoughs about your girl. Very very sorry for you loss, thingking of you and your girl. {{{{hugs}}}}
Karen x

Alarm bells are ringing for me too I'm afraid. I would get her checked over by another vet.

So sorry about your loss though, it must have been absolutely devastating. I really do feel for you.

> She is still shivering now, still low tone growling at the other girls in the house as and when they come by.

I would be keeping her away from your other dogs at the moment. Did the others have access to her when the pups were born/afterwards? I know when Lottie (same breed as yours) had her litter she would have gone berserk had my other dogs got near her or her pups. Just taking her out to the garden was a major problem. With the boys she was OK, but if she clapped eyes on the other bitch in the house all hell broke loose (numerous baby gates came into play!). And Lottie was, and still is, the kindest, sweetest, most even-tempered dog you could meet. Hormones flying every which way can do funny things. I never left her unattended until the pups were a good few weeks old, even then only for a very short time, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

My initial thoughts were eclampsia, as others have said.

Please get her to another Vet ASAP.

Firstly want to say how sorry I am about your sad news.
Thankfully I have never experienced Eclampsia, however, it was my first thought from your post. I would be asking for a second opinion, you know your girl isn't right and you will know you own dog best. One thing I did have with my recent litter was a very unsettled bitch due to the pain of a cesarian. I was told to up her painkillers as she was so unsettled that she would roll over and then try to roll back with all the pups attached. I never left her side (even slept in the whelping box with her so that I could feel her every movement if I dozed off). I wonder if as the womb was contracting she was in pain and her threshold isn't very high. Being in pain can make them shake as they are in a form of shock from the pain.
Sadly you will never know for sure what happened in that short period of time but I most certainly would want my Vet to be a bit more concerned.

pre whelping she was only on RC puppy food for he last 3 weeks of her pregnancy.  the calcium supliment was only given on advice of my mentor when i was describing what was happening.

I have only just changed vets as the vet who i used to see left the practise and she moved half way up the contry and i wasnt  happy with any of the others there.  I felt they were very good with dealing with the puppy which i had with them but seemed to just think in was a worrying nervous first time mum etc and didnt have a clue what i was on about.. which to some extent he was right.. but i know my dog and even though i say i just pay the costs etc. I just want to know if this something i have caused, could have prevented, wil happen again. I am just at a total loss.
Everyone keeps saying to me "these things happen, natures cruel" etc which i understand.. but for me i need to know why. I dont want this to ever happen again so anything i can learn to prevent will be invaluable.
Its not like this was a accidental mating, i traveled 700+ miles for this and had a waiting list as long as my arm for the puppies, not to mention one was for me which i had planned for a while for.

The way she is now.. Shes still very clingy (normal for the breed!) but just curled up in a tiny ball at my feet. every 5 or so seconds a little shiver.. then again i am sitting in my house in thick trousers and 3 tops as its a little chilly!

> She is still shivering now, still low tone growling at the other girls in the house as and when they come by.
> I would be keeping her away from your other dogs at the moment. Did the others have access to her when the pups were born/afterwards? I know when Lottie (same breed as yours) had her litter she would have gone berserk had my other dogs got near her or her pups. Just taking her out to the garden was a major problem. With the boys she was OK, but if she clapped eyes on the other bitch in the house all hell broke loose (numerous baby gates came into play!). And Lottie was, and still is, the kindest, sweetest, most even-tempered dog you could meet. Hormones flying every which way can do funny things. I never left her unattended until the pups were a good few weeks old, even then only for a very short time, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>
> My initial thoughts were eclampsia, as others have said.
>
> Please get her to another Vet ASAP.

The other dogs were not allowed anywhere near her room, she was let out the front of the house so never in contact with the other dogs. Every so often my 10 month old would try to find me when in there but she would be shooed out, there were baby gates all over the house. My husband thought i had lost the plot.

I guess.. because the last litter was so perfect it now seems it was too good to be true. her sister was a natural mother from word go and needed no help. she was uttery devoted to her pups no matter what.  By their very nature Dobermanns are a self whelping breed, one that needs very little interference and i guess last time i was spoilt. we had 10 pups, all 10 made it with no problems, even the runt was fine.

I only work 2 hours a day and for those 2 hours my husband was home, but he had to work and i had a suspected broken wrist. There was no one else to watch them and because she had been fine and i thought she was getting the hang of this mother thing i trusted her.
Never again. with any dog. ever.

We only ever used the food recommended for inwhelp bitches or bitches lactating in the last 3 weeks of pregnancy and it occurred twice.   We think that the bitches were both overdone i.e. food, calcium etc., now we do not add anything, as they get extra by having their food increased from the 6th week onwards.   They both produced loads of milk far too much for very young pups, again we think caused by the excessive increase in the protein and additives that was in these foods; and both bitches were very good doers.  We keep them on their normal brand for adult dogs, and just increase the amount given.

Really sorry to hear what has happened, still think that you need to have her checked again by a vet.

Did the vet come out after she had finished giving birth, to check the pups and Mum and give her an oxytocin(?) shot? I wonder if there is still something inside her, although I would have thought her temp. would be up. Would it be worth scanning her now to check all is OK inside?

How awful for you, I'm so sorry. It may be eclampsia or something else that triggered her, like a knock on the door maybe or another noise? If she's still not normal something isn't right.

I think you only way to set your mind at rest is to get a second opinion from another vet a.s.a.p.

I would not be happy with your vets opinion something is clearly wrong. There must be other vets you can see what area are you in? please dont sit and hope it will go away , you may loose your bitch . If you travelled 700 miles for the mating what is distance if your bitch needs proper diagnosis.

I know you are devastated and understand your loss I lost two puppies from my last litter and had to hand rear the rest of the litter , through different circustances but my bitch was ill after and we were worried we may loose her .

Please seek out another vet...

We sleep with puppies from birth to the day they leave,  friends to stand in if required as many other breeders have said.

Have you considered the fact she may have retained a dead puppy has the vet x rayed her?

very sad and exactly why i never leave a bitch with pups, not even for 30 seconds, for at least the 1st 2 weeks

This is truly heartbreaking, to loose 1 or 2 out of a litter is devastating but to loose the whole litter is awful, we looked after half a litter last years for a friend ( the mother died during a c section) they all thrived for a week then all died in 1 day, the other half he had himself did the same, classic fading puppy (canine herpes) your case is so different, please get mum to another vet for treatment, dont risk losing her also, something is not quite right with her. good luck hope she is ok soon, (((((((HUGZ )))))

I have just got back from another vets where i went for the second opinion.
Glucose levels are fine and they are testing her calcium levels. have to wait for the results of that at abotu 3pm.

he gave me Galastop to dry her up and advised continuing with the calcium + vit D supliment.

He is quiet certain there is nothing retained and that her discharge is normal.. however she consinues to shiver/shake while at the vets so at least he knew i wasnt making that up. Temperature checked fine.

i have managed not to cry today.. untill now. One of the people who on my waiting list for a puppy has sent us a massive bunch of flowers.

I guess.. all i want is closure.. a reason. as untill then no matter how many times people are going to say "it happens" "thats nature for you" "it wasnt your fault" i will always belive it was and i could have prevented it.  :(

So sorry to hear this x

With our very first litter, my bitch had eclampsia, she was shivering and overflowing with milk the morning it happened, and I knew no different thinking she had not fed the pups and put her in the whelping box and sat with her while the pups fed.....she then collapsed, started fitting, by the time we got her to the vet was in a coma.   Thankfully she did pull through, but spent the whole weekend in the vet hospital.

The symptoms your girl has does sound very similar, I personally think you should get a second opinion.

Good luck and I'm so sorry to hear about the pups :(

results in for the calcium just in.

normal.

now what.

:(

> He is quiet certain there is nothing retained and that her discharge is normal.. however she consinues to shiver/shake while at the vets so at least he knew i wasnt making that up. Temperature checked fine.

So calcium levels are fine, which is good. But I'd still want a scan/x-ray to make SURE nothing is retained and all looks normal inside. It's all very well saying there's nothing retained, but with your poor girl still acting strangely I'd want it confirmed - definite!

> results in for the calcium just in.
>
> normal.
>
>

Of course with you supplementing her, and the pups no longer feeding the levels could well be stabilising.

Personally you may just have to put it behind you.

As you have her sister and you wanted  a puppy for yourself I would mate her to the sire of this litter and would not risk breeding from this girl again.  She could well turn out to be a perfect Mum, but I couldn't take the chance myself, it is too heartbreaking.

Im really sorry to hear this.
A friend of mine lost a litter gradually over several days when they were about two weeks old (i think). It turned out that as soon as the lady left the room to go to the bathroom etc, the bitch was stamping on the puppies. While she was supervised she was a brilliant mother.
I would think that for some reason, which unfortunately you may never know, the bitch was unhappy/unsettled.

Take Care

I stopped giving her tablets after the pups died.

Its been suggested with her sister, but out of the 2 dogs she is by far the nicer one. Her sister produces 10x better than she is though.

shes currently curled up in a little doberball at my feet, to her, the world is fine again. to me. not just yet.

We recieved flowers this morning too from one of the people who were meant to be getting a puppy, its just heart breaking as their dobe is in the final stages of DCM and the puppy would have been just at the right time for them.

in her self.. shes not nutty any more. shes still shivering alot though.

This really is a heartbreaking thread & I'm thinking that maybe someone could offer information on Eclampsia & how to treat it. As we know, pups usually put in an appearance in the middle of the night & it may be helpful to others in the same situation if they can't get the vet out quick enough. I know it's too late to help on this occasion, but hopefully C.D. can help someone who may find themselves going through this in the future. Again....I'm so sorry :(

do you have a coat to put on her?

>

> do you have a coat to put on her?

Shes under a blanket.. theres just a nose poking out!

So so sorry to read this, how heartbreaking for you.  I've been breeding for about 15 years now and luckily not experienced Eclampsia or a litter loss so cannot comment on those theories but I have witnessed someone else's bitch kill her own pups and also had a friend who had a litter one minute only for it to disappear the next (she had eaten them).  I personally am comfortable leaving a bitch with pups after she's settled down after whelping and every breeder I know is the same.  My theory is something has upset her and she has killed them, perhaps there was a knock at the door when you were out?  All the other dogs started barking - all that would be needed for some bitches to stress to the point that they would kill their pups. 

IMO you shouldn't feel guilty and beat yourself up for not being there 24/7, not everyone feels they need to be.  I also wouldn't rule out breeding from her again either, you would just know for next time that she required TLC in the first few weeks, no need to spay IMO.

Big hugs ((()))

> then again i am sitting in my house in thick trousers and 3 tops as its a little chilly!

It wouldn't hurt to put the heating on for her.  Mine goes on 24/7 when I have a litter.  She may perk up if feeling warmer.

My house was like the Bahamas when we had our litter- I was praying for fresh air.
Hope your girl gets better soon x

It wouldn't hurt to put the heating on for her.  Mine goes on 24/7 when I have a litter.  She may perk up if feeling warmer.

Fully agree. We never have heating on at night for ourselves, but when there is a litter we do. It costs us an extra £2.50 in electricity a day, but it's necessary. Any animal feeling unwell will of course also need to be kept warmer than normal. Sometimes just something as little as that can make a big difference.

Glad it wasn't eclampsia, and that she's been checked by a new vet. I know how awful it is to sloe an entire litter even though in my case the pups died during he birth. It's very hard to get over.

how terrible for you :-( maybe, just maybe there was something wrong with the puppies that mum knew but couldnt be seen???they do have a way of sensing these things? you said you lost one the next day and then another through shock of a operation( i think you said this in your first post , sorry if i read it wrong?) so perhaps something was wrong from the beginning? terrible all the same and i do feel for you:-(