Yesterday I took my 8 months puppy to an Open show - she stood and moved a dream for our breed judge and got best puppy so we decided to stay for the puppy group ( she's had  several puppy group placings  previously) - the group judge was quite heavy handed whilst looking in her mouth and she put her ears back and looked a litte worried - he then stopped and proceedeed to tap her on the nose a few time saying " don't be a silly girl " - to her credit she continued to stand there - not totally happy but not shying away - to my horror he then banged  down hard on her back and 'bounced her up and down' several times - she spun round in fright and would not go anywhere near him afterwards. I took her out of the ring and asked some mates in the breed to go over her - but again she spun round  and would not let them near her back - I'm just totally livid - this was a  sound well trained puppy who has had NO problems with any judges handling her previously - with Crufts just around the corner I'm worried that this bad experience will take months to put right.

Can someone - anyone ...please tell me just WHAT the judge was trying to achieve by  bouncing her like this ?

Yvonne

i had a judge that was very heavy handed on my fcr boy 7 years ago in the end i told the judge to take his hand off my dog not in a poilet way. i know i sure have ride it out, but the dog way stressing out and to this day as not gone back in the ring.i know when stated to the judge to stop judging the dog in his way i wasnt going to get place in the line up, but the dog did  go on that year to crufts and got 3rd.and that was the end of it for him.
there no need to be heavy hand on dogs.

I have no idea, Yvonne. Sounds like it might be old/breed habit. What breed does the judge have, wouldn't surprise me if he had something really stocky. Would you be kind enough to pm the judges names so I can avoid him.

Thanks,

Jeff.

A few years ago we had this happen to us at an open show, we were in NSC, the judge was an older person (retired) and was extremely heavy handed with one of our Frenchies, (they are solid little dogs but I don't think there's any need for it), he was pressing really hard down on her back and "bouncing", she jumped but didn't seem too bothered.  I was so taken aback, when we got home I did phone some friends (not only in our breed but in others too) and tell them to avoid this person in the future.  Agree with Jeff, I think it's an old fashioned thing.  In over 20 years of showing that's the only time it's ever happened. 

Lorna

thats a terrible shame :( I would be so angry as well... I dont know what the point of that was?? I hope that your puppy will overcome this. Get as many people as you can to go over your pup, hopefully the fear will be erased

Surely you should be able to express your concerns about this judge's actions to the KC or the show society Yvonne? Did the breed judge see what the group judge did to your pup? Judges have a duty of care to dogs that are shown under them IMHO, especially (but not solely) with puppies. No judge should be heavy handed with a dog - its a great way to get yourself bitten or p33d on for a start :-), even the most laidback dog will only tolerate rough behaviour for a short time before taking some action! In our increasingly litigious society it wouldn't surprise me to see a judge like this being landed in court, sued for wrecking some poor dog's show career! I hope your puppy gets over her fright soon Yvonne,  what a horrible end to a perfect day for you!

I would put a complaint in as has already been stated to the show society and the KC.  WHy he had to tap her on the nose etc I haven't a clue, the bouncing up and down, I think some people think this shows if a dog has HD or not!

Just wanted to show my agreement with my wise friends above Dakko & Perro, I too would be committing this to writing and informing the relevant parties in the appointment of this Judge.
   And also wanted to say how sorry I am to hear of such an unnecessary and unsettling experience, Best wishes for your girl x

I've had my dogs bounced like that in the past - it's supposed to show how flexible the stifles and hocks are. I'm told (I don't judge - never wanted to) that if the ring is big enough for the dog to really move (like the BiS ring at Crufts!) then it's not necessary, but in the tiny rings where there's only room for three or four strides it's very difficult to see the true picture. When I was still showing it was pretty much standard for judges to do this.

Not been on the go for a long time.  Family illness.  Had to reply to this Yvonne!  This is why I stopped showing!!  My poor boy had something similar happen (not deliberately), it took me a year to get him back in the ring, then it happened AGAIN (this time was deliberate!!)  I will never show my dogs again.  After the second time, my boy was scared of most people, he's only now decided that people are allright.  I'd rather have a very happy pet.  I just hope your baby is not too freaked by this.

This is exactley what happened to my youngest when she was still in puppy, i to was fuming and it took me an age to get her to let anyone look in her month ( my judge actualey caught her with his nail), she is now 2 1/2 and occasionally i still have problems.

I'm so sorry Yvonne. Sounds like this judge didn't have a clue about young Belgians and how sensitive they are? I have to admit, I NEVER go in the puppy group because I feel it may just be too much. But it's a great shame to have to worry about judges being over the top.

weve had dogs come to us at ring craft that have been ruined. one dog in particular is now terrified of men since a rough handed gundog judge got his hands on her one match night at another ring craft

It is totally un-necessary to do this, even more so to a puppy :(

A couple of years ago when my girls were in junior/graduate we went under a lady judge at a Champ show who had a long coat that was flapping about on a windy day which spooked some of the dogs, and the worst thing was that she was so rough with them as soon as she put her hands on them.  She checked their ear length and then proceeded to pull down their jowels to see how long they were?!  I think apart from a couple of bitches, the rest of them backed away from her :(  Never again will i go under her.

We've had the hands on back thing and swinging the dog from side to side, male judges wearing ties that drop in the dogs faces when they try to go over them, stood on dogs feet, and heavy handed too pulling front legs up.  Its no wonder puppies are put off by these sort of things. :(

recently a judge of standard poodles when to check a friends dogs "marriage tackle"  and squeezed causing the dog to roach suddenly, the judge said to handler... "they've all been doing that today"... enough said

Amazing isn't it :(  I think I'd roach if somebody did that to me ;)  Joking aside though, as has been proved many times, just one person to spook the dog, can put it off for life. 

We recently had a v headvy handed judge do the breed at a show. People complained to the breed club and that person is no longer on the club's judging list. Puppies (and adults) can so easily have their careers wrecked.

Oh what a shame! I've had my dogs 'bounced' a little, but never more than seemed acceptable - not entirely sure what they are checking, but if my dogs had shown as much dislike of it as yours I would have done exactly the same thing. Get people to go over her, but make sure they are just stroking her back for now, not doing anything that she might think was leading to anything rough. I wouldn't be best pleased at someone tapping my dogs on the nose either!

A judge did that to my pup in an AV Working puppy class 30 years ago so it's not new. It was his first show and mine!! I was lucky and he suffered no ill effects.

Hope your pup gets over it!!

It was so common that it's something I train my pups to accept.

You can't/shouldn't treat all breeds the same though. Seeing as Yvonne and her husband are both highly respected judges, it makes Yvonne's question even more valid.

> You can't/shouldn't treat all breeds the same though. Seeing as Yvonne and her husband are both highly respected judges, it makes Yvonne's question even more valid.

I do hope Yvonne's puppy manages to overcome this.... From what I know of Belgians they can become very superstitious about things like that, and don't forget easily.

It's even more important for sensitive breeds to be become accepting of unusual treatment.

Of course it is, but you cannot very easily teach a Belgian puppy at the most sensitive age to accept such handling from total strangers -they just do not work like other dogs. They make split second decisions and don't easily forget.

> you cannot very easily teach a Belgian puppy at the most sensitive age to accept such handling from total strangers -they just do not work like other dogs. They make split second decisions and don't easily forget.

Agreed. As I mentioned before, they get superstitious, and do not easily forgive or forget! Unless you have owned one, it's very hard to understand that.

thanks for the replies folks - we've got a couple of shows before Crufts and hubby is judging at Newark next week so I'll take her along and get some Belgian people to make a fuss and  go over her outside the ring - they are a sensitive breed but to be honest so are many other breeds as pups - in my opinion all pups should be handled sympathetically and a quick once over should be sufficient - waving the back of your hand under a dogs nose - counting every tooth -holding the ears and staring into their eyes -  groping under the tail in bitches and walking round the back end before touching the dog are all in my opinion unneccesary and unsettling for youngsters.

Yvonne

>you cannot very easily teach a Belgian puppy at the most sensitive age to accept such handling from total strangers -they just do not work like other dogs. They make split second decisions and don't easily forget.

They sound very much like dals in that respect.

Just wanted to say how sorry I am for hearing this. I once had a judge pull apart my girls jaws when she was a young pup. It took me months to get her to have her teeth checked again. Now she does it with no problems but I would never go under that judge again.

I hope this judge hasn't ruined your puppy's career. I'm not a judge but I really don't understand the whole 'bouncing on the back' thing. Surely this is most uncomfortable for any dog let alone a puppy?

They sound very much like dals in that respect.

But the Dalmatian standard says "Outgoing and friendly" for temperament, for BSDs it says "Wary" -so totally the opposite in temperament. :)

A dog can be wary yet not nervy.

However dals are also renowned for being very sensitive and never forgetting an insult; that's why they need training to accept sudden shocks and take them in their stride.

The thing is that now you know about this procedure you can all train your dogs to not be startled by this - that it's no more scary than having your feet picked up and looked at, or you bits felt, or your teeth examined. It should always be done gently, of course, which is where this particular judge seems to be lax.