Hi,

I am one of the first people to test for a new hereditory condition in my breed and my bitch has come back a carrier but no one else has tested for the condition in the UK except for one other kennel. My bitch is due in seaason in 2 months and I am desperate to mate her as she is now my only bitch I can carry my lines on with (her mum is due to be spayed). Would you use the only clear dog in the country or use an untested stud because no one has tested.

What would you do please? Thank you! 

It would be irresponsible to use an untested dog.

If the bitch was clear then no harm could be done as no affected pups could be produced, still wouldn't be happy to use an untested dog, as you wouldn't' know what the pups were likely to be, all carriers (if stud affected), some carriers some clear (if stud a carrier), or all hereditary clear (if stud also clear).

Can you not persuade stud owners to have their dogs tested, and certainly you should push for it with the breed clubs.

Certainly as soon as a DNA test became available late 2008 for late onset prcd-PRA in our breed the breed quickly moved to make it compulsory addition in the code of ethics.

I totally agree it is irresponsible to use an untested dog but it has been mentioned to me by very well respected people that I may have no choice but to use an untested dog. I am very confused!

The condition is Exercise induced collapse (EIC) and according to research it is still a very unknown condition and the test is very new and is still being tweaked.

I have asked a couple of stud dog owners and they think there are far too many tests being introduced for my breed - what with CNM and now EIC.  

Would you have considered the tested stud dog if there were other dogs to use? Is he good enough? If he isn't what you are after then I would consider asking stud dog owners if they would consider doing the test if you were willing to pay for it.

Oops, hit the wrong button...

My breed started testing for elbow dysplasia a few years ago. Older dogs haven't been tested, but any going for x-rays now have to have them done. Do we stop using older dogs, just because they haven't been tested? You will have the same problem for a while until more people test.

If I were you I would look at older dogs that have not appeared to produce any problems and then test any puppies you have, if you can, prior to them going to their new homes.

> if they would consider doing the test if you were willing to pay for it.

but take the price off the stud fee.

The clear tested dog is outstanding but he is too heavy for my bitch and the wrong colour. I have several other dogs in mind but I know the owners won't test as I have asked. One of the dogs is a CH who is 8 and he has sired many good litters with no reports of any problems. He is also worked and has not had a problem with EIC.

What about one of the latter dogs sons, maybe their owners would test, especially if they want their dogs used?

The only way to encourage stud dog owners t test is if no-one will use their untested dogs.

I'm not a breeder, so can't really advise.  However, I have looked into EIC quite extensively, and find the test really dodgy!  The original research paper showed that it wasn't all that clear cut - they had affected 'normals', affected 'carriers' and unaffected 'affecteds', if you see what I mean.  So yes, the majority of affected dogs were homozygous for DNM1 mutation, but they haven't said that this mutation causes EIC, they have just shown an 'association' because they have homozygous mutants who show no symptoms.  I find it quite worrying that there is a 'test for EIC' when this research wasn't cut and dry, and even more worrying that the gene pool will shrink dramatically as people start testing and excluding carriers from their breeding programme. 

I also have to ask where you had the test done?  There is certainly one company offering it who I wouldn't go near.... and also do you know how it was carried out?  In the patent application for the EIC test there were some very dubious methods that would make me skeptical about the result.

Sorry.... bit of a rant, but I just wanted to point out some fairly major flaws!!

Clare

Do you mean 'carrier' as in a recessive condition or do you mean 'carrier' that the dog has only one copy of the gene, it can be confusing, as to most 'carrier' means recessive.  If the dog has one copy of the gene (carries that gene) it could be a dominant gene.  However, if only 1 dog in the country is tested clear, then if everone wants to use him there would be a breeding bottleneck eventually, and the gene pool becomes smaller and other diseases could become more prevalent.

You could, if the condition really worries you, test the offspring and keep the 'clear' pup and endorse the registrations and not lift the restrictions until they are tested 'clear' for the condition in the future.   By that time there may well have been progress made by more breeders/breed club.  Your breeding strategy would have to take into consideration the difference between recessive genes, dominant genes, dominant genes with incomplete penetrance, and polygenes etc.

> I find it quite worrying that there is a 'test for EIC' when this research wasn't cut and dry, and even more worrying that the gene pool will shrink dramatically as people start testing and excluding carriers from their breeding programme. 
>

There should be no need to exclude any dog from a breeding program when you have  DNA test.  All can safely be used if bred to the right partner.

Ideally you wouldn't use affected, but they can still be mated to clear and produce all carriers.

Clear to clear produces all clear.

Clear to Carrier produces around half Carrier and half clear.

So in a case where this gene is implicated, but not proved to be the cause of the problem, all animals can be used, but you can ensure non have two copies of the gene, so reducing the problem.

Surely this is the way to go to avoid dogs having two copies of a gene that is linked to a problem, but still keeping all in the gene pool if that is desirable?

DNA testign is not about excludign, but giving breeders the info to breed more safely.

I know that's what should be done, but I got the impression many people would do all they could to avoid using carriers!  I've definitely heard some people say that (particularly of studs dogs), admittedly I don't know many breeders though :-D

Hi,

Clare - I had the test done with AHT - Animal Health trust. Please tell me if it is them you mean, I won't be offended. The result just said carrier and her brother came back clear. Surely I will get some affected pups if I use an untested dog and he is a carrier or affected. Apparently it isn't a life threatening condition and there is alot of confusion about the test and the actual EIC condition.

I'll PM you - AHT weren't who I was thinking of, but I'd be interested to know how they do the test.

> DNA testign is not about excludign, but giving breeders the info to breed more safely.

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, and by doing that you can keep the gene pool as varied as possible.

Thanks Clare, it was done by cheek swab. I only tested my dog and bitch because their Great Grandad has been identified as a carrier of EIC, so I was trying to be responsible but I have been assured by very well respected people in my breed that no one is bothering with the test.

I have just double checked and it was Laboklin I used for EIC, AHT was for the colour testing.