hi i have a bitch called mia shes 1 1/2 yrs old she is in welp does anyone have any suggestions to tell how far along she might be as we where not planning to mate her ?

how big are her nipples and her tummy?

if she isnt big i suggest and so will many on the forum going to the vets to get her the mismate jab to terminate the pregnancy. Shes too young to have pups and in the recession pups are harder to sell than ever before. As it was unplanned its for the best as your breed are a breed thats bred too much.

> As it was unplanned its for the best as your breed are a breed thats bred too much.

and so many in rescue that some councils are putting them down once their 7 days are up

Alternatively she can be spayed if not too far along removing the litter and any chance of it happening again.

>shes 1 1/2 yrs old she is in welp does anyone have any suggestions to tell how far along she might be

When was she in season?

The vet can give her the Alizin injection on two consecutive days up to 45 days post-mating, to terminate the pregnancy. There is no reason why she should have to have an unlanned litter, or for you go to all the expense and hard work of raising them, with all the years of responsibility that entails.

hi all i have taken my baby girl to the vets the vet x-rayed and scaned her for me he said she is due any day im so excited for her now does anyone have experince in breeding terriers ?

her tummy and teats are huge

As said above the rescue problem in the breed is huge, the responsibilities for the pups also, and whelping a litter with no knowledge potentially dangerous.

Rearing a litter properly is very expensive and time consuming.

Has the vet not suggested the best course of action to terminate or cull the litter shortly after birth?

The idea of puppies may be exciting, but the reality is all work and worry, not to mention expense, and then good homes for well bred planned puppies is hard enough.  Vetting homes so that the pups have the best chance of fidnign lifelong homes is not easy, and it is only after havng had pups returned that breeders learn that not all potential buyers are truthful or cut out for dog ownership.  You will have a lifelong responsibility towards these pups.

Will you be able to take back adolsecent or adults at any time and keep them apart?  this generally is not a breed that can simply be kept together, both sexes are dog dominant.

An accidental litter will attract less desirable potential buyers, looking for a cheap pup rather than a well bred one.

How on earth did your bitch manage to get in whelp without you realising?

i am willing to do whatever it takes to look after my babygirl and her litter shes like my child i wouldnt neglect my grandchildern so why do it to her and her babies ive been researching everything on breeding at this time would just like some extra adivce from someone who has bread this breed themselves thanks

If you haven't already got a copy of "The Book of the Bitch" by JM Evans and Kay White you should get one immediately, and read it thoroughly - although slightly dated it will answer most of your questions and give you further information.

When was your bitch in season (forgive me is I missed an earlier reply to this question)?

Are you aware that you will not be able to leave her or the puppies ever for the next 3 weeks? They need 24 hour care. I guess your a mum of 3 if any of your children are small you will have to make sure they don't go anywhere near the pups for several weeks as mum will do ANYTHING to protect her babies. But before you even get to that stage do you have any idea who the sire/dad maybe and if she will even be able to deliver her babies. She is a young girl and may not be mentally ready to take on a litter. What would you do if she doesn't take to them or worse kills them. I've seen it happen. Yes I am trying to scare you because it's scary the scariest part having 10 8 week old puppies still with you and you unable to find any good homes for them which is highly likely at this time of year with this breed and with the current climate. Do you have the time and funds to do this? C sections cost over £600 and that's in surgery hours. Approx 300 to raise each pup correctly, jabs chipping, worming, vets bills, advertising, puppy packs etc etc. You already have stated you lack of knowledge which is the most worrying part, but it's too late to do anything about it now, I just hope things go smoothly and you can give the pups the start that they need. Please get your girl spayed after this.

Give mummy of 3 a break, so her girl is pregnant, give her advice insted of critising, these things do happen, ok we try our best to stop it but with the best will in the world an acciental mating occured. Theres so many of you out there who pontificate, you should do this or do that, dont you ever make mistakes? What a mean set of people you are to worry the poor girl, help her with positive advice. Mumof3 good luck and I pray that everything turns out well in the end, and a valuable lesson learnt.

I've seen plenty of advice given in this thread. All relevant.

It isn't a case of "giving her a break" - what about the Rescue Centres that have to cope with the fall-out after these "unplanned"/unregistered litters?

There are already too many puppies being abandoned at 5-6 weeks (just google in "puppies abandoned" and you will find case after case) - not to mention those that are abandoned at 10-12 weeks when the owner of the bitch has failed to find homes for them and cannot stand the poo and squealing and biting that is standard with a litter of puppies.

If this bitch is now about to whelp, and has not even been wormed, let alone fed correctly for a pregnant dog because the owner has only just "discovered" that her baby is pregnant (and I really do want the rolling-eyes icon here) what condition are they likely to be in?   

From the original post I presume (although I don't know) that the stud is of the same breed as the bitch - and it is against TOS to quote it on a breeding thread - but as the owner of the bitch did not "know" that she was pregnant,they obviously cannot be registered .

Personally my attitude is the same as the others who advocate culling most of the litter at birth, leaving the bitch with one puppy - and the bitch should be spayed by three months.

Personally my attitude is the same as the others who advocate culling most of the litter at birth, leaving the bitch with one puppy - and the bitch should be spayed by three months.

Given the state of rescue centres, just about the most constructive advice possible and I agree wholeheartedly. :(  As can be seen from other threads, people with good hearts but little knowledge have a difficult time whelping bitches and rearing a litter.

Why is this forum so keen on recommending that puppies are culled? I thought the kennel club was against culling puppies and haven't they added a no culling rule to codes of ethics? and yet whenever anyone posts about an unplanned litter on this forum  killing the puppies is the usual advice. There is no thought to  whether the puppies are healthy or whether the breeder  can find homes for them. just kill the puppies.
and strangely enough a few months ago i remember a poster  who had a larger than expected litter in very tragic circumstances and she posted asking whether or not she should cull some of the puppies and then people turned on her very nastily for even thinking of doing this.

Personally I've felt the opposite has often been the case. Although many experienced and caring people on this forum take the longer view and think about the lasting future of these pups, I feel that anyone dissaproving and critisising an unplanned litter ( especially in a breed that is news every week for one reason or another) is taken to task as unsupportive.

Yes I am unsupportive of random, ill thought out matings, untested parents and people who think it's 'sweet' to have puppies. The attitude that you can rear the pups and worry about their future later, flies in the face of everything I try to achieve in my own breeding.

Unfortunately, in my experience, it always seems that people who "breed" willynilly end up with a bitch who gets in whelp very easily (e.g. by accident), has a reasonably sized, easily whelped litter and manages to get away with everything that a responsible breeder would never dream of doing.

Yes there is a big rescue problem with certain breeds and the TV programme ,shown before Christmas, illustrated how difficult it is to get good homes for these pups.At times I felt like shouting at the screen whilst watching it!

At the end of the day this bitch is in whelp and due any day. Her owner has decided to ask for advice on this forum, which she didn't have to do.

As someone who will be hoping to breed a litter for the first time at the end of this year I consider myself very lucky that I have people in my breed to mentor me through my bitch's pregnancy. I know I can pick up the phone any time, night and day, to ask for help and advice.

The OP doesn't appear to have this support so please give her advice on the situation she's in now.

Out of interest, if she decided to take the advice and cull the litter to one pup, who would do this? Are vets ok putting to sleep healthy pups at the request of the owner?
  

Its only about a month ago I think, that I was advocating the culling of some of another litter :(   This is not something I do lightly - but too many people seem to think that it is okay to mate their bitch without thinking anything of the consequences - seeing only £££s in their eyes - I know that this was not the situation with the litter last month - but this time?

"We weren't planning on puppies" seems to be used as a "get out of jail free" card - and when the ignorant owner comes here and asks for advice, and those amongst us who advocate culling are viewed with horror and considered Cruella deVilles.   

Believe me, its hard work rearing a litter of 10 or 11 puppies - and it is costly when weaning starts.   And if you don't have homes for all the puppies by the time they are 8weeks old, you then have to contemplate the costs of vaccinations etc.   Are most homes capable of containing 11 puppies plus mum (plus the father who "accidentally" impregnated her) for more than 7 or 8 weeks?

And if your home isn't capable of containing them all - what then?   Do you contact the RSPCA?   They are inundated with unwanted puppies.   What about Battersea Dogs Home/Pet Rescue/Woodgreen Animal Shelter etc?  You will find the same story with them.   And Breed Rescue?   Again the same story!    So what then?   My son's dog was abandoned, with five siblings that survived at the age of 9 weeks on the edge of a motorway!  Another three puppies were found dead along that stretch of road :( Is that a "good" start in life?

Missie is one of the lucky ones  - she now has a loving home where she is adored - as a puppy she looked like a labrador-type puppy - now she is fully grown her size is somewhere between German Shepherd and Great Dane - her ears still look labrador-ish, but tail is GS and head more GD  - but at least three of her siblings have been returned to the Rescue to be rehomed on one or more occasion.   Is that really a "good" start in life?

The OP talks about "her baby" - would she be happy about a 13 year old daughter becoming pregnant?   A good start in life?   I think not!

Please can I remind everyone that if you don't feel you can offer constructive advice, then please stay away from this thread (this is not aimed at anyone in particular) and please also respect other members' opinions even if you do not agree with them. There are many other visitors to this board who could stumble across this thread and find the advice given useful so please do not turn it into a "slanging match"

Thanks

> The OP doesn't appear to have this support so please give her advice on the situation she's in now.
>

We have given advice.   It may not be what she wants to hear - but it is best advice.

I agree that this isn't an ideal situation.

My last question was meant to be taken seriously, not as a dig at people who had suggested culling.

In other people's experiences will vets cull new born pups if asked to do so?

My Vet will, not happily but he will, because he works (for free) at our local rescue kennels and knows that it's the best of bad options. :(

It's a VERY serious situation for those who haven't been to a rescue kennel recently.  3/4s of my local kennel is full of badly bred and cross breeds of the breed that we're talking about here.  Any friends and relatives who really wanted a puppy could go out and get one from a rescue kennel tomorrow if they could give it a good home.

> There are already too many puppies being abandoned at 5-6 weeks (just google in "puppies abandoned" and you will find case after case) - not to mention those that are abandoned at 10-12 weeks when the owner of the bitch has failed to find homes for them and cannot stand the poo and squealing and biting that is standard with a litter of puppies.
>

see these litters, mainly Stafford and Stafford crosses in Bristol Dogs home rafter Christmas when our training club take food down from the proceeds of our Christmas party.

> Why is this forum so keen on recommending that puppies are culled? I thought the kennel club was against culling puppies and haven't they added a no culling rule to codes of ethics?

Kennel club litters are or should be well planned ones, with breeders with waiting lists for well bred puppies.

We who advocate culling are looking at the fact that there are worse fates than death for unplanned puppies, the most likely outcome is a desperate breeder in desperation or ignorance of proper vetting will offload the pups to anyone who will have them, and then these owners will be passing them on and on until they finally end up in rescue.

There are plenty of dogs already in rescue deserving of homes, rather than swell their ranks with more unplanned un health tested pups.

Hi, please take your girl to a vet and see if she is in whelp, you may be able to do something about it, if the litter is unwanted. This breed are very hard to place in new homes, you might be able to watch a bbc show that was on a few months ago called wonderland, try youtube, it may show you how much work it takes

Good luck

> In other people's experiences will vets cull new born pups if asked to do so?

Yes

There are 48 litters advertised just on this site for sale at the moment!

There are 29 pages (10 ads per page) on a well known puppy selling site, for as little as £150, you can't even cover the costs of rearing for that.

Yes I have known vets cull pups from unplanned litters, not something that they are keen to do but as others have said most are only too aware of the welfare problems associated with these litters.

K

thats right brainless but only when done right!!!! ....its cost my friend £190 in puppy food thats only up till now :0 !! 8 pups at 5weeks old their large breed and mum is on the same food ,had been since 7weeks pregnant and at £14 a small bag of puppy food plus mince meat and will still have 3 more weeks to go ,so not much change from £300 for the cost of food alone .....please think about it , its not cheap and ive had so many visits to the vets ,costing over £400 so you see theirs no money in it also ive only been getting 3 maybe 4 hours sleep anight ,last night was my 1ST NIGHT IN BED ,its been 7weeks lol ,but i still only got 6hours , it very hard work and costs alot of money if you still want to go ahead then get the book of the bitch its a good book and tells you alot about whelping and what to expect ,good luck !! x

A good post whitelilly, a point well made! :-)

Hi what type of terrier is she and what did she mate too?   I know this was unplanned but its happened now and you a least are prepared to care for your bitch and not put her through a late termination.  This too, has side effects and I have known a bitch go onto deliver dead puppies at full term and entreme stress when they were born dead.  Get on the internet and read as many articles you can on whelping a dog.  be prepared, find her somewhere warm and cosy to deliver them where she is safe and away from the kids.  take as much advice from this site from those prepared to help you through this and there are those of us that will.  Be ready financially as this can be costly and do not delay in calling the vet if you are worried.  Use the money from the sale of your pups to pay for her to spayed, as others have said so many do end in rescue and pups arent selling too well.  price your pups to cover your costs and her spaying and then you are being responsible.  best of luck

cprice99 - it is against TOS to put the breed in this thread - please do not encourage OP to do so - it's already been removed once:(

And according to OP, she is about to whelp any day now

In all honesty I used to dismay at the often brutal way some posters appeared to treat folk who came on the boards with threads similar to this, I really did. I used to regard it as a kind of snobbery whereby some people used to come across in a way that made it seem that only a select few were capable of breeding dogs successfully.
Oh how my views have changed..... I have learned so much as I have gone along. Not just from the boards of course but from other people in my breed.
Whilst I would find it hard to come on here and advocate the culling of puppies, I can see why some posters are doing so - especially knowing the breed. It is a fact that the rescue centres are full of this breed and it's crosses.

The fact is, I do wish that dog breeding WAS left to the experts AND those who wish to learn from the experts (a breed mentor, who shows and has extensive knowledge, is essential before you even contemplate a litter). I do not currently show, although I have a promising bitch - only a pup and if I can get her to be more confident on the table etc, I sincerely hope to give it my best shot. In the meantime, when I do have a litter, it is only with the intention of improving my line - in every way possible,(using carefully selected stud dogs that I hope will compliment my bitches, consulting those with extensive knowledge of my breed before making my choice)  and I really think that unless that is your aim, you should not even contemplate having a litter. Where is the joy or purpose in breeding substandard pups, really ? Don't people want to breed pups that they can be proud of ?

I feel so sad when I look at the puppy sites and see litter after litter of my breed, many dog lovers registered (*sighs*), no health testing, bred from poor quality parents with no thoughts whatsoever given to how the puppies might turn out and often £550 +. Pups will probably barely resemble the breed they are and god only knows what their health will be like.

That said, if the OP is genuine, then they do need all the constructive advice they can get for the best possible outcome. Only they know if they can cope with the demands that will ensue from bringing an unwanted litter into the world.
Please remember that with every pup sold (assuming you do find suitable homes for them), you must offer a lifetime of support to the new owner and be prepared to take them back if things don't work out.... even 10 years down the line. Good luck.

cavlover i agree 100% ,i felt the same when i first started coming on this site ,but after reading so much over time ,i can see why ppl post what they post!!!

I think that is the beauty of this site, white lilly - people can not only learn a lot from those who are experts in their respective breeds, but also they can learn something from those of us who still have a lot to learn ourselves. :-)

Sorry didnt realise about the breed thing.

May I say I do not agree with CULLING of puppies under any circumstances.  I do not agree with the culling of any living thing unless it is for the reasons of health or severe disability that would be detrimental to life.  PREVENTION and EDUCATION.  We are all entitled to an opinion, and this is mine, sorry if it is not shared by all of you , but you are entitled to yours too.

I hope that the op will be sensible and responsible by spaying her bitch after this litter and learn a lesson. 

If you wish any advice please do post, some will help, best of luck and I hope and pray that all goes well.   As posted by others breeding is expensive and risking and NOT a money spinner.