Hi
I have a ridgeback girl nearly 12 mths now.
From day dot she has always been very very excitable, she has been shown (with success) but has now become so unruly and hard to control in a show lead, I am in two minds whether to continue BUT she has qualified for Crufts and I would love to take her, but at the moment cannot see how.
I have just got a 15 week old RR bitch as well, she is such a calm individual she is actually helping my older girl in some situations. We are going to try my husband showing the older girl as he emits less stress than me. But he is starting from scratch.
We use a dogmatic headcollar on walks and it has made walking her so enjoyable, but she will still spin, lunge and jump up on other dogs. I find at shows it is just a night mare.

Oddly enough I have 3 kids aged 15,7 and 2 and she is the calmest, kindest, super girl at home.
So I have started now walking her around busy car parks, taking her with us in the car to every place we go, ignore any excitable behaviour.
It is hard to treat her as she hates all treats bar liver and she has a finite amount she will take
She is clicker charged and responds well at home and in low stress situations but I cannot connect with her when she is whizzy. If I analyse it it is because I have not got that "bond" with her as she has not fixed on me at all. I did all her training, she got her foundation course well, ringcraft so I am not sure what else I can do.
People have mentioned aversion therapy, has anyone undertaken something like this?
The new puppy is totally different, cool as a cucumber, it has made me realise who fizzy our older girl was from the start.
I'd appreciate any advice at all....
Thanks
Jane

People have mentioned aversion therapy, has anyone undertaken something like this?

That is one sure way of making sure any bond between you and your dog will be broken! :( And if you have to break your dog down to get her into the ring, she will never look her best and may never do as well as she could. A happy, alert dog always looks better than a quiet, miserable looking one. Showing needs to be fun for the dog.

You can sort this situation, but it sounds as if you do need help. You don't need treats to clicker train, the reward can be anything she enjoys. Hyper dogs like this may have to be taught that absolutely nothing will happen until they are calm -for instance they could be put into a down stay and not until they have calmed down will they be allowed to work (of whatever sort) -they do realise then that being over the top means nothing interesting will happen at all. You don't happen to live anywhere near either Lincoln or London do you? If so I'd recommend the Show Off days with Paddy Driscoll -these are for show dogs and she can work miracles. :) http://www.teamworktraining.co.uk/showring.asp

We did ringcraft with Paddy but her times are not compatible with school runs.
By aversion therapy I meant exposing her to low levels of the exciting situation and standing still ignoring her with back turned til she resumed eye contact, then treat liberally.

I might have use. The wrong term... Sorry!
I am from sleaford v near Lincoln :)

Definitely go for one of the Show off days then -always weekends, just one full day. :)

Have you ever tried Skullcap & Valerian (try Dorwest Herbs) it can help take the edge off some dogs.  It is a herbal remedy so can't do any harm to try it.

Just checked. Show off days are Surrey and Lancashire. Too far for us :(
I have tried herbal remedies, to no avail
I have emailed Paddy and she is going to help me out with 1-2-1 behaviour class.

Show Off days in this part of the country is in Nettleham usually -sure there will be more planned, I've been to several there.

Ooh really excited, just seen the Preston day. I have just sent an email asking them to reserve me a place.

I'm trying to find another couple of ladies that do ring training weekend courses which are advertised to help you get the best out of your dogs, very similar to Paddy. They have been advertised in the dog papers and think that one of the handlers has a spitz breed. Trying to find info as i was interested in going along to one.

Thanks!
Now the Dog papers
Another question I mean to ask!
Which are these
I seem to miss out on shows and allsorts using higham press and fosse only really for details

Which "papers" should I be looking at?
TIA
:)

DogWorld and also Our Dogs.

You can either buy them direct from the publisher, i think they get delivered to your door?? I believe if you buy 6 months or 1yr package then it works out cheaper. DogWorld places most Ch show results up online anyway eithout having to join up with them
http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Home

I normally pick them up from our local newsagents, who can also order them in.

Also depending on where you live there are other sites which cover many open shows too, like

http://www.penneypine.co.uk/

This is who i mean for the show side of the training

http://www.showdogwhisperer.com/

Oh wOw super thanks!!!
Markfield I know well, might book the feb one when I've put more time into my girl
I took her to busy homebase carpark today she worked loose lead for treats beautifully so will step up
I have asked local dog trainer if I can hijack a class for her to sit and watch so I can work on focusing her eyes to mine...
Will order papers too
thanks so much for all advice
so appreciated

From a behavioural and training viewpoint, you do have to be very careful who you choose to help you (but you know that!).
I would also recommend Paddy. I personally would be very wary of anyone (whatever they were involved with) calling themselves some kind of whisperer (no offence meant).

Lindsay
x

Hi Lindsay,

This show whisperer i understand where you are coming from as in the name(CM i hope they are not)
The handler is a well known female who has 2 main breeds and does very well with them in the ring also helping out is a ex JH.
From what i've heard she is very good, i am interested in going to one of her classes when i can.
If i feel something is not right then i won't be doing that with my dog.

If Paddy has anything down south coming up then i would also attend her's too, but as yet nothing has been placed up on her site either.

I think its great to learn and take away with you what you feel works for your dog..

If Paddy has anything down south coming up then i would also attend her's too, but as yet nothing has been placed up on her site either.

E-mail her and ask! :) I think you'll find she's also considerably cheaper than the other person.

> From a behavioural and training viewpoint, you do have to be very careful who you choose to help you (but you know that!).
> I would also recommend Paddy. I personally would be very wary of anyone (whatever they were involved with) calling themselves some kind of whisperer (no offence meant).
>

Oh come on :(  
The person you are referring to is one of the best known handlers in the UK - renowned for getting the very best out of a variety of, often difficult, dogs. She has achieved success at the very highest level with breeds as different as Shiba Inu, Rottweiler, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier and CKCS.

If I wanted to compete in obedience, I would go to a trainer that has a successful track record in that field. If I needed help with a show dog I would likewise seek out the very best trainer I could find - and you can't get much more successful than Liz Dunhill.

I know that Paddy Driscoll is very highly regarded as a trainer - but has she had any personal success in the show ring?

ETA: I see from her website that check chains are not allowed at her ringcraft class. How does that impact on those that have breeds that are routinely shown on a check chain (as it would appear are many Rhodesian Ridgebacks)?

I know that Paddy Driscoll is very highly regarded as a trainer - but has she had any personal success in the show ring?

We are talking about behaviour here and she will definitely be able to help with that - whether she has experience of the show ring or not.  A good trainer or behaviourist will be able to help in all areas. She will be able to identify the reason for the behaviour and give them a plan to work to which will deal with things as a whole rather than just dealing with the behaviour in the show ring - just because the dog seems over excited this could be about stress/anxiety as well as lots of other things and this is likely to be missed by people who just have experience of the show ring or people who go along with the 'typical' dog whispering theory.  Lyndsay wasn't saying this person was no good - she was just saying be cautious :-)

> I see from her website that check chains are not allowed at her ringcraft class. How does that impact on those that have breeds that are routinely shown on a check chain (as it would appear are many Rhodesian Ridgebacks)?

Having never shown a dog, I can only guese that parading a trained dog around a show ring on a check-chain is vastly different that trainING a dog using a check-chain.

I would assume that somebody that trains via reward-based traing, without using pysical corrections/check-chains, trains the dog to fucus on the handler, rather than training the dog to respond to it's neck-wear :)

show chains are usually snake chains and pretty useless for controlling dogs in my humble experience (very humble lol) I'd never put mine in one as she would garot herself I am sure.
For a well behaved show dog, then snake chains look snazzy and detract less from your dog
However I am ordering a 5/8s wide flat slip lead to try and gain some control of my girl
We show on saturday but I will get there early and try and psych her into calm with positive reinforcement with a little bit of hardball ie : no calm, no attention.

If she settles prior to her class (last one in puppy) then she will take part, if not it will be (an expensive training day) If she is as whizzy as she was last time, putting her in the ring like that does nothing.
I found Paddy very helpful the one time I was able to go (a 3 days after we won in minor puppy at breed champ show - coincidence ?)

I will perhaps call Paddy and talk :)

Thanks for all replies, I have also ordered the supplement recommended, as others have also said it can be helpful

I know that Paddy Driscoll is very highly regarded as a trainer - but has she had any personal success in the show ring?

Yes she has made up Champions. She no longer has a dog young enough to show (and her youngest isn't show line but working line) but she's certainly been there and done it. :)

Well I didn't mean to start a war ;)

I've never shown a dog, but do sometimes show horses in hand, and we always train our young stock to behave on a show bridle or headcollar. That just seems like commonsense to me. I wasn't just thinking of the OP's dog in particular, but dogs in general. Eg. rottweilers are usually shown on a fairly substantial chain collar - it doesn't necessarily mean that the handler yanks the dog around - so what's the sense in NOT using a show collar at ringcraft classes, then expecting the dog to go perfectly on a check chain at a show?

I went once to one of the Paddy Driscoll classes - all I can say is that I didn't feel she had much empathy with working terriers. :(

I should perhaps point out that members of the APDT are not ALLOWED to have choke chains used in any classes -I don't think there is any difference made between what type of training it is. Also in essence collars aren't used in Paddy's classes. They have to be there, have to be on, but no dog is EVER janked on a collar of whatever type, corrected in any way by using a collar, so it wouldn't matter if the collar used at shows later was made of chain or cobweb, it will just sit there.

Paddy has empathy for ALL dogs -I've trained with her for 4 years now in several different classes plus one to one and seen a lot of different breeds with her. She will help anyone but won't pretend all breeds are suitable for everyone as pets -as we all know they are not.

Oh come on   
The person you are referring to is one of the best known handlers in the UK - renowned for getting the very best out of a variety of, often difficult, dogs. She has achieved success at the very highest level with breeds as different as Shiba Inu, Rottweiler, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier and CKCS.

I don't have any idea who she is :) and was going only on  her website. The idea of any kind of "whisperer" makes me hugely suspicious to be honest. Do you, or does anyone, know why she uses the "whisperer" word on her site? If she uses CM methods or similar, (not saying she does, but the inference is there!) then I hope you can understand my concern which is quite genuine. I have no axe to grind - she may be excellent.

I work in the behaviour field and know behaviour, but not much about showing. I do know  my own area though, which is why I'd personally tend to go for someone who has behavioural experience as that can be adapted to any context. Someone who is in showing (not referring specifically to this lady by the way!) may not have a full understanding of behaviour. In fact, IME they are unlikely to. If I recall correctly, this lady did say she worked with behaviour, yet I cannot see any qualifications related to behaviour, even very basic ones.

Karenclynes has explained it better than I can :)

Lyndsay wasn't saying this person was no good - she was just saying be cautious

Exactly! ;)

Lindsay
x

As I said, I didn't have any intention of starting a war :)

I don't show (have 2 Patterdale terriers, so not KC registered) but I occasionally go to shows with a friend, and I read her Dog world as I'm interested in anything to do with dogs... so I've seen photos of this person winning at major shows.

As I said earlier, it seems sensible to me that if you have a problem with showing, the person best placed to help you is probably someone who has been there, done that, and got the rosettes to prove it at the very highest level. I have no idea about her qualifications, just know that she is very highly regarded.

I seem to be in a minority of one with regard to the other lady. It's all very well using only 'kind' methods - and I'm certainly no fan of CM - but when you have hard headed working-bred terriers you have to lay down ground rules firmly. There's an old saying "Most dogs like to please their owners, terriers like to please themselves". I have 2 well-balanced bitches who live happily together, both have the KC Gold Good citizen award, both are 100% reliable with other dogs (not always the case with this breed) and this was achieved with a combination of (mostly) reward-based training and the occasional reprimand. Maybe I'm just a bad person? I'd rather have a dog that understands the word 'no' and can be stopped from getting itself into danger than one that has to be tempted away from that situation with a titbit or a clicker. Terriers can easily let their instincts take over, and need a firm hand from time to time. And no, that doesn't mean physical punishment - a Patterdale wouldn't even notice :) Tone of voice is paramount.

Incidentally, we had someone in our GC class that had trained with PD. Hers was the only dog that broke his stay every single time - she clicked away and treated him nonstop throughout the class, and he took the mickey out of her the whole time. In exasperation when he was about to disrupt the class for the nth time, the class trainer shouted Stay in a fierce voice. The dog looked at him, you could see the brain whirring. He means that, and the dog was rock solid for the next couple of weeks. But then the lady stopped coming because the trainer had 'used harsh methods'. 

I met her a few months later in Sainsbury's. She had given up all training as he had started lunging out at other dogs - he was a CKCS :(  He was a bright little dog that could have easily gained the Gold. Totally inept handler, and training methods that didn't work for her or the dog.

he took the mickey out of her the whole time.

Dogs don't do that, they are dogs, not humans -they either understand what is meant or not. It could be a very simple case of this handler clicking at the wrong moment so inadvertently teaching the dog to BREAK the stay. Most understand a shout and will be too worried to move -simple. :(

> he took the mickey out of her the whole time.
>
> Dogs don't do that, they are dogs, not humans -they either understand what is meant or not.

I used to feel that Ollie took the mickey, it often felt like it, but knowing better, I realised he was actually pre-empting me, he was watching my every move, and had learned MY body language, and realised that once he had done what I asked, he immediately came out of it, whether a sit, stay, stand or down.  It took me nearly 2 years to discover this, and by that time, any hope of re-training him was out the window, so I changed my body language, and began a complete change of routine, changed my tone of voice for different commands , and also my own stance.. believe me, its hard to do, as you become so ingrained in your own way of training, you are actually training yourself to stand a certain way, for a command (I wonder how many people have noticed this lol)...

Maybe changing what you do, how you stand,bend, voice level and tone etc, re-train yourself, while tackling the problems, may help in some small way... also some of your own actions may be triggering a cue.. somehow I managed to do that with Ollie also...

He would allow a judge to go over him, but just as the judge was running a hand down Ollies tail, Ollie would get himself set to whip round and bounce, (playtime).. I began to just touch Ollies head at the start of the judge going down the tail, and all was fine for a while, until Ollie began whipping round at the beginning of the tail touch.. and I realised, my hand on his head was his 'cue'.. NOT the judge.. so when I stopped this, he stopped whipping around..

simple.. not on your life, but realising my actions, were his cue's meant I could change 'some' of his unwanted behaviour..

I have trained all my dogs in the same way, but it never worked with Ollie.. I had to change completely just to get a little out of him.. his intelligence completely outwitted me..

There's an old saying "Most dogs like to please their owners, terriers like to please themselves". I have 2 well-balanced bitches who live happily together, both have the KC Gold Good citizen award, both are 100% reliable with other dogs (not always the case with this breed) and this was achieved with a combination of (mostly) reward-based training and the occasional reprimand. Maybe I'm just a bad person? I'd rather have a dog that understands the word 'no' and can be stopped from getting itself into danger than one that has to be tempted away from that situation with a titbit or a clicker.

I for one would say that saying was written by someone who doesn't understand dogs - they all like to please themselves, it's just some find intraction and working with their handlers very rewarding due to being bred for that purpose so that is what they get out of it, it's not about pleasing the handlers just that that is what they find rewarding so it looks like they are trying to please.  That isn't the case with I would say the majority of dogs and is the cause of lots of problems.  People mis understand dogs motivations and expect them to want to please them.

You don't tempt a dog way from something with a clicker - a clicker is a tool that is used to teach dogs something new, oncve learnt the clicker is no longer needed.  I much prefer to reliably teach a dog something so that I know I can call it away from danger, rather than rely on using a stern tone of voice or teaching my dog not to do something as I know at some point if something isn't taught so reliably that it's a conditioned response that a 'no' really isn't going to cut it.

> I much prefer to reliably teach a dog something so that I know I can call it away from danger, rather than rely on using a stern tone of voice or teaching my dog not to do something as I know at some point if something isn't taught so reliably that it's a conditioned response that a 'no' really isn't going to cut it.

So, if your dog's instinct clicked in and he was following a scent that took him across a road just as a car was coming, you would rely on calling him away??? You obviously haven't owned scent hounds or terriers. My dogs know that a forceful 'no' means just that. Stop, don't touch, don't go there. It wasn't taught with harsh handling, they don't obey because they are frightened, they have understood my tone of voice - and yes, a fair few titbits on the way.

So, if your dog's instinct clicked in and he was following a scent that took him across a road just as a car was coming, you would rely on calling him away???

If the dog is trained well then yes that is what happens. If it isn't, you don't let if off lead where anything like that could happen. (And yes I have owned a total of 12 gundogs of 3 different breeds.)

>> he took the mickey out of her the whole time.
>>
>> Dogs don't do that, they are dogs, not humans -they either understand what is meant or not.
> I used to feel that Ollie took the mickey, it often felt like it, but knowing better, I realised he was actually pre-empting me, he was watching my every move, and had learned MY body language, and realised that once he had done what I asked, he immediately came out of it, whether a sit, stay, stand or down.

Yes, I used the wrong phrase. This was a very bright little dog whose owner was completely inept. He understood perfectly what she wanted but took no notice. It took one word from someone that he respected (NOT I stress again because he ever used harsh methods, but because he was someone that all dogs instintively responded to) and he proved to everyone that he could do what was wanted. Sadly, the owner couldn't get the same reaction (I nearly wrote 'command the same respect' but I suspect that would be misunderstood too) and last I saw he was totally out of control, but she was still valiantly clicking her clicker - at all the wrong times :(

> So, if your dog's instinct clicked in and he was following a scent that took him across a road just as a car was coming, you would rely on calling him away???
>
> If the dog is trained well then yes that is what happens. If it isn't, you don't let if off lead where anything like that could happen. (And yes I have owned a total of 12 gundogs of 3 different breeds.)

I meant to write 'terriers' not gundogs - I've edited it now. I would expect a gundog to be pretty biddable.

You obviously haven't owned scent hounds or terriers

You assume incorrectly :-)  Why do you think you can train them to stop saying 'no', but you can't condition a response by repition and reward using the dogs natural instinct in your favour and teach a reliable recall, you can.  Teaching what you do want and rewarding behaviour has scientifically been proven to be more reliable than using aversives :-)

Teaching a reliable recall, and expecting a working hound or terrier, oblivious to virtually everything but the scent he is following, to return when called are two totally different things.

No it's not - to me teaching a reliable recall means it's reliable whenever you call, if it's not reliable when a dog is on a scent or invloved in a chase then it's not reliable, and that is what I'm refering to, you can use the clicker to teach conditioned responses, meaning the dog responds without actually thinking about it because you have built up a history of reinforcement using rewards that use the dogs natural instincts!

> This was a very bright little dog whose owner was completely inept. He understood perfectly what she wanted but took no notice. It took one word from someone that he respected

My dog still has moments of acting like a loony puppy (he's only 2&half years), where he will get excited and try to start a game, which starts with gentle mouthing. When Buster does this to my husband, it gets silly quickly with Buster jumping up and chewing his sleeves. My husband often resorts to a very stern tone, but it takes me to step in to stop it. At most, I say 'no' in a very soft voice (usually don't have to say anything, just walk into the room) and that's it, Buster will sit, waiting for the next command (if he's really wound up then I'll tell him 'down for him to lay down & calm down).

My husband gets very frustrated that he can't stop the dog from being silly like this, when a soft word from me has the dogs attention. There are 3 reasons IMO for this -
a 'rough & tumble' dog will only be further excited by a stern tone when allready in a state of excitement.
I have conditioned the dog to respond to me using treats. As I am under no illusion he wants to please me, he wants to 'earn' food LOL, and I have made sure that I have taught him that obeying me is rewarding (I admit I am still working on this under the extreme distraction of loose dogs runnin gup to him whilst on a lead, but we'll get there).
I stay calm & self-assured when dealing with the dog, where my husband starts to panick and get cross (Buster is amazingly tuned into subtle changes in body language, compared to our last dog, a lab-cross).

> He understood perfectly what she wanted but took no notice.

Summing up all my waffle, my husbands body language & lack of consitency with training has TAUGHT the dog that when he says 'no' it doesn't mean a thing, but the dog has learnt that when I say 'no' it means no. It isn't that the dog knows what he should be doing but chooses to ignore my husband, it's that my husband chooses to ignore my advice ( ) and has therfore taught the dog his commands are not actually commands just sounds comming out of his mouth, effectively teaching the dog to not listen to a word he says (grrrrrr. why wont OH listen to me! perhaps I should focus on rewarding his good behaviour instead of nagging the bad, LOL)

OK, I give up. I'm a completely hopeless trainer and a very bad person. :(

But I'm happy in the knowledge that my dogs are happy, secure and obedient - even if, in an emergency I shout 'no' in a loud voice, rather than a happy 'come' with my arms raised to encourage them. :)  Especially as one of those arms might be holding a lead rope with a headstrong young colt on the other end of it ;)

With all due respect Mastifflover I am very familiar with your breed - my boss's wife breeds them. Training a Mastiff is absolutely nothing like training a headstrong terrier.

OK, I give up. I'm a completely hopeless trainer and a very bad person.

That's really not what was being said at all, I'm disagreeing with one point of view which has nothing to do with you being a good or bad person :-).

With all due respect to you, Scent hound, sight hound, mastiff or terrier anything with a spinal column really learns the same way - learning is scientific.  What does vary is the temperament, speed, size and natural instincts, motivations etc etc of the animal but that doesn't change the way they learn. 

Of course in many ways your right, teaching/trainig a Mastiff is very different to teaching a terrier because try making a Mastiff walk by tugging on the lead or encouraging him to sit by shoving his bum down - not quite as easy as with a terrier.  So the best way is to understand what motivates your dog and reward behaviour that you do want by settling them up for success and teaching them what is required in small steps and building up a history of reinforcement.

I'm confused why you think you can teach working dogs do something by saying 'no' so teaching them not to do something, but you can't teach them to do something as a positive action?  The latter is proven more reliable as I said but I'd be interested to hear why you think one is posssible but not the other.

The things is by just shouting no to you terriers you are working against there natural instincts and are just supressing behaviour rather than using it to work for you.  If that works for you that's great but please don't say it can't be done by using other methods because it can and is done regularly is in my experience much more reliable. 

As it goes despite their reputation I find terriers one of the easiest dogs to train because they as a general rule have so many things that they want that it's usually easy to find a variety of different motivators and reinforcers. 

Having gone for off topic, though in a way not, because it doesn't matter the breed or the field if it's about behaviour then understanding the way dogs learn and their motivations (which is what varies most from breed to breed) then an experienced person who has an in depth understanding of behaviour and the way dgs learn can help to deal with the problem :-)

> Training a Mastiff is absolutely nothing like training a headstrong terrier.

My post was not about 'my dog is more headstrong than your dog' it was trying to highlight how the same command from different poeple means different things and a dogs lack of desired response is more than likley from the way the person handling it is being, rather than the dog being stubborn or taking the micky.

Breed trait differences (ie, the terriers drive to be doing something and the Mastiffs sheer lack of drive as he'd rather be sat on his but watching the world go by) really is just a matter of finding different motivators or adjusting a trianing routine to work with your dogs motivation/drive. Clicker training/opperant conditiong, (doesn't matter what it called as basically using rewards to intstill a behaviour), is used in different species of animal, from killer whales to chimpanzees (and of course our beloved dogs :) ), I'm sure terriers are not so distinct in thier temperment from all other breeds of dog and all other species of animal that reward based training is completely useless for them :)

In other words if one breed of dog can be taught to walk well on a lead without a check-chain, they all can. If the reward based trianing is failing, I'd hedge my bets it's the trainers/handlers problem with poor timing and/or poor use of motivation.

Once a dog has been taught to walk well on a lead without a check-chain, it will still walk well on a lead if a check-chain is used, but without the risk of it causing pain or damage to it's neck as it allready knows what the handler wants form it :)

ETA, just seen the post by karenclynes - I am soooo slow at typing it drives me mad!

Gosh this has gone way beyond what I'd asked about :) LOL

Recall with my 1 yr old RR hmmm it is AWFUL
With the 16 week RR puppy = brilliant

The older girl was never like that not even as a young puppy, at puppy training when they tested the recall, she was diabolical, I'm shocked she passed her foundation really.
The younger puppy could pass it now she is such a bonded girl to me

So I think my relationship with the older girl is at the root of the problem. A friend who trained under Jan Fennell suggests she does not see me as leader BUT at home when out she is perfect even submissive - it is just that she tunes out when other dogs are around.
Like someone said they have done studies that show some dogs truly so not hear when distracted, she is so rigidly focussed.
I think and assume the leaping and lack of restraint when showing and when meeting other dogs is a manifestation of stress/anxiety displayed as excitement.

She adores ball games, I throw she catches and returns it then goes back again... This is the one game that she plays devoutly. So this may be the reward I need to work with her. A game of catch.

I think since having the younger one, it has become very apparent how different my older girl is in nature.

I am not sure persevering with showing at this stage is a goer, but I may take her along when I start showing the younger girl, for company and acclimatisation, then we might see her chillax a bit eventually!
Crufts may come around again for her, maybe not but that's not what's important, her mental health and preserving her astonishing good temperament around the house and kids is the most vital thing. She is the BEST house dog in the world in my eyes.
Also one thing, she never ever growls or barks.. she never has.
the new puppy play growls and yelps and barks in play quite a lot which from watching RR pups play is def the norm.

I am learning so much from this thread and seeing that opinions about raising dogs are variable ;)

Hi again, the thread has grown legs, hasn't it! <g>

I think from what you've said, a visit from a reputable, good behaviourist (or very good up to date trainer) may be of some help. I recently worked with a dog who was not at all happy at shows, and some of his problems were fairly clear (eg he was kept in a crate for some of the time so many dogs were passing him and this stressed him - covering the crate helped a huge amount) and so on. It can take an eye for the actual behaviour and knowledge of dog psychology (not the claptrap stuff you often see on tv ;) ) to help a dog and owner. Dogs can form negative associations which can be worked with very often! If a dog has problems, then looked at early, it may just possibly make the difference between the dog showing more happily, or not showing at all.

Most up to date behaviourists don't support any of the pack leader type theories, as they are outdated really :) It's actually easier to just look at interactions rather than try to work out hierarchies, including those of, supposedly, human alpha and dog and so on :)

Anyway, good luck!

Lindsay
x

Hi,

Just registered and picked up this message string.  Myself and my wife work with the Rhodesian Ridgeback Welfare Trust and quiet often get asked to help out with difficult dogs or ones with problems.  Happy to discuss feel free to contact me

Hi and thanks mosestao

Our girl is ok  now it seems, having the younger puppy has helped her a lot and while she still is over excitable, it is now able to be distracted more quickly.
We took her to Boston Ch show and all we wanted was for her to settle in the ring and environment and behave and to be fair she did really well bless her.
However she remains hunched in movement due to tension so a conformation show seems pointless until she learns to chill out a bit and this will come with time.
We intend to show our younger girl more vigorously as she has a much more settled and relaxed temperament and would not know tension if it came up and bit her behind.
Older girl will come as not for comp and hopefully acclimatise and we will show her again on and off and see how it goes.

Her only issue has ever been over excitability when out, around the house she is quite possibly, in fact definitely the best tempered and super girl to have around.
Calm as you like.