Some of you may remember my previous post re my dogs fighting well tonight it has happened again :-(

This is what happened maybe someone can shed some light on what I am missing:

They were both in the front room with us the youngest was on the sofa with my husband and the eldest was on the floor near my childrens beanbags, the eldest then got his claw caught in a blanket that was on the beanbag. He was tugging and then the youngest started to growl at him and then he was yelping and I was trying to get the cover off of his claw (a bit of a struggle) then they were both lunging and growling and in the process this time my husband got bitten by the youngest (he had hold of the youngest I had hold of the eldest by the collar) and the eldest was trying to bite me but I managed to get my hand away and escaped with scratches. My husbands bite is minimal (sorry darling) but its the first time they have done this when we have tried to restrain them. Then we put the eldest in their crate (he was just closest) and the youngest then kept coming to us for affection but was obviously all hyped up and growled at me. Now I don't think he would hurt any of us but I just don't get what we are missing here?

It seems that your younger dog is of slightly higher rank than the older one. Two dogs who are very close in status will often react like this when one shows signs of weakness or distress. The eldest was behaving out of character which unnerved the younger so he acted in the way that would happen 'in the wild' - the weakest would be further demoted or dispatched.

Thank you for your reply. What can I do to help this situation? When we gained advice from a behaviourist previously they deemed the eldest to be of higher rank but I accept that they (and I) could have got this wrong and also this could have been the case at the time? (in ages this close together can rank alter?)

> (in ages this close together can rank alter?)

Yes.

Yabbadoo, I really think you need to go back and re-read the comments you received when you first posted the problem you were having with these two.
  I really don't want to come across as 'preachy' or harsh, because I'm quite sure this is upsetting for you and I do feel for you in that respect. But, honestly now, this is not a good situation and some stark truths and difficult decisions need to be  made by you (which I think you've been avoiding or hoping will go away) Not least because you have children in the house, but also the stress levels on the dogs themselves is unfair.
    You were given advice about management and control measures (I think from Krusewalker?) and I'm quite sure if you're honest with yourself this is something you have let slip or stopped (intentionally or not) It easy to get lulled by a period of peace between the dogs to think all is now ok but it's not.... as you've seen.
    I would say you have two options for the safety and wellbeing of everyone (Human and canine)
a) Re-home one of the dogs. (this is of course upsetting for you but will be a blessed release from stressful living and potential serious injury for both dogs and serious injury for a family member or child)
b) Have the dogs assessed by an accredited Behaviourist I would only use Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors I know you have previously used a behaviourist but re-assesment would be prudent as much to see what *you* the humans are doing as much as what the dogs are doing and to work on both areas of behaviour. It will be a case of use it or lose it.... you will need to go into this option accepting that management may be long term and these two might not ever settle 'together' But we can't tell you that over the net without 'seeing' the dogs and you.

I wish you the best of luck this really needs to get sorted now. x

I hate the word fighting, when there is actually no bodily contact or blood drawn from your CKCS dog on dog, is this still the case as of from your last posting? Is it still just  verbal threats and body language and the odd scruffing from an adolescent and adult sorting out a pecking order or have things progressed?

Now I don't think he would hurt any of us but I just don't get what we are missing here?


To explain:

It's quite simple what happened one of your CKCS had a stuck claw and panicked. When another dog squeals and panics as JG has explained it triggers an instinctive response, it is a sign of something wrong a dog has to decide what to do about it........... leave and run away or dispatch the dog with the problem, which is not always about pecking order dogs don't generally allow another to suffer, they put it out of it's misery, though some will do it to up their pecking order. When an animal is squealing it needs a response. (Which is why squealing children affect dogs too.)

With the youngest giving signals of an attack (which is how he problem solved) the older was prepared for a fight, you holding his collar was leaving him vulnerable to protect himself, which is why he was trying to escape you at any cost. When adrenalin is pumping like that anyone can get hurt and anything can happen, a dogs first instinct is to protect itself, at least they are small dogs with a soft mouth, you can handle them, but to a child still a danger.

You didn't understand what was happening and why, what you should have done was popped the younger one away whilst helping the older, now you know that any fear or panic your younger will solve it with aggression. The wrong thing was popping the elder in time out, that was a punishment, he did not instigate anything so why was he punished?  Leaving the younger, the youngest then kept coming to us for affection to be comforted by you afterwards, this was also stress of the situation,  he was geared up to take out a weaker (in his thoughts) or hurt housemate, though he may well have just niped and not acted that out fully, I would guess that is what he would have done.

But the worst thing was allowing the younger to dare to growl at you afterwards, why did you allow this? That dog would have been out of my sight in a time out quick as a flash, you can't allow a dog to rule over you ever!

Get yourself established as the boss, you have to, otherwise there is no hope.

How have the dogs been getting on prior to this incident?

Thanks for all the responses. Yes I agree it is time to get them re-assessed by a new behaviourist. I feel that there would have been a full blown fight this time if we had not grabbed them as this was different more viscious (sp?). I didn't allow him to growl at me he no longer remained sat with me, at the time the only reason the eldest went into the crate was because he was closest. I will fully admit that I am not 100% calm when they argue as it really upsets me (this is unavoidable). My husband was very cross this morning and feels that whilst I am holding on to our dogs (which I know sounds selfish but I love my dogs very much) I am sacrificing our childrens safety and I then said that I thought he was making too much of it and this didn't go down very well.
It is very hard on a forum to always come across in the right way.
Most of the advice we have been following but yes we have all lived in peace since then, i understand what has been said about the panic situation and hope that this is a minor setback and that a good behaviourist can help us out and spot anything else we are missing.

I would like to say that if one of my gang lunged at another in anger then growled at me after, there is no way on earth he would be up on the settee... ever!

I would stop all cuddles and affection until he learned to behave well in the family..sorry sounding a bit of a Cesar but he sounds well up himself for doing that to your older dog...Am I right in thinking this breed is a king Charles cavalier?? crikey thought they were babes- not fighters?

I have one who can never be allowed up on laps or the sofa.  She's always been a pushy madam - even as a pup! and for her sake, her daughter and grand-daughter's sakes and ours we can't allow it or she gets to thinking she can boss us around :(   I wouldn't call her top dog, quite frankly I don't think she has what it takes, she's just ambitious.  Actually I'm top bitch and they all know it, but without being bullied ;) 

As has been said before a real top dog feels no need to bully ;)  I'm just wondering if you have an ambitious, pushy youngster who doesn't know how to be top dog?   Feel you really need to either re-home one or get a registered behaviour counsellor to observe them with the family.

Must agree with others, re. no on the sofa, and if one dog is distressed remove the other.   They are dogs first and last - not children ;)

Can't believe these are CKCS :(

I agree with Dill no way should either dog be allowed on the sofa while you are having these difficulties with your dogs.

They are CKCS? Oh my God. I thought they were some sort of giant breed from the way you & your other half found it so hard to hang onto them & pull them apart.

Nobody would put up with a pair of Akita's or Sheperds behaving like this around small children, why do you put up with a small breed behaving this way around your kids? Am i missing something here? Why are you finding it so difficult to physically control such small dogs?

I get the impression that the younger one has ideas above his station and seems to think he is allowed to behave like this?  What boundaries to you have in place?

i would go back to some basic ie do not let either dog on the furniture or your lap. only give attention when you decide to not when they ask for it and be very firm but calm with them both, so they know their boundaries. if either one growls at you or each other remove that dog from the room, do it in a calm but assertive way and say nothing. after a minute bring the dog in question back in but say nothing and if it is calm and settles down then fine but any aggression again and remove from the room.
the dog should soon get the message that this behaviour will not be allowed but it's up to you to be boss, this can be done in a calm but assertive  way and doesn't mean you have to shout as this will only make the dogs more over excited.
my one dog used to sleep get on the sofa but before i got my third dog i stopped this as she would get silly as if she was in charge. this has made a big difference to the way she behaves towards me and my other dogs and now she knows where her place is.   

Hi,

Well we have been to the vets and had the aggressor checked over etc and I have been told he is underweight. The tension in the air at home is horrible, there is no lunging at the moment just glaring and growling (all by aggressor) and the children have now started o become fearful of both dogs despite us reassuring them that they are still the same lovable dogs they were.
The behaviourist is going to come and see us in January but the advice we have been given so far is no different to any previous advice as we are being told that it is "complex" aggression. The vet did advise that if they can't fix it with behaviour advice (they have referred us) then they will have to look into the possibility that it could be "the thing that cavaliers suffer from that is difficult to diagnose" I am assuming he was talking about syringomielia (sorry can't spell that word). Would this really be affecting the behaviour like this??

ETA - Flyball -the reason I find it so difficult to grab them when they are lunging is because they are so small. There fur covers their collars and in the heat of it all they can be hard to find.

Leave a short lead attached to each collar to grab :-)

I would  be very wrried with the children around if they happened to get caught up in an altercation.

Do you have an area in the living room where you can put a large pen I would have one in one out throughout the day until you decide on what is best for your family and the dogs . The breed are small enough for them to have plenty of space.

I make sure that the children are not left alone with them anymore and if I am really honest they don't want to be as they are very frightened that they may get hurt :-(

I have spent a few days mulling over what to do and feel that maybe the best thing to do for everyone is to ask the breeder if she will take back the youngest, I really don't want this and it will devastate me but I think maybe I am putting my needs in front of the dogs and agree that they can no longer live in this tension filled atmosphere :-(

Maybe the best decision for everyone involved. Heartbreaking but life would be so much easier for both the dogs and your family.

Just a little bit of an update. We are awaiting another behaviourist to come and visit us at home but with xmas and the snow it has been very difficult to arrange a time. When we spoke on the phone she did say that it all sounds very complex and although some of it is fighting over resources some of it is ??
Our youngest hasn't lunged at the eldest again since the last time but has been giving the "glare" and also stands rigid whilst the eldest sniffs him? and also has been growling at him alot even in their "safe" place which was their crate they sleep in......
I guess what I want from you guys is straight talking as to whether I am prolonging their unhappiness by getting yet another behaviourist or whether it is the right thing to do?

I just want them to be happy, I love my dogs they have never been without anything and I truly never thought I would ever be in this position :-(

to be honest I think life for both your dogs would be less stressful if you rehomed one, but really only you can make that decision as you are living it...

I have had the youngest checked again by the vets as he has been displaying some very odd behaviour and I am concerned about his weight and he is now "underweight" and they have not found any physical cause and therefore they are saying it must be to do with this situation. Every other person I speak to seems to tell me to do something different and I don't think I have ever been so confused!

Hiya,

When you say you've had him checked over by the vets again has this involved blood tests as there is only so much a vet check with a feel and listen will tell you?

No body can tell you this situation is or isn't workable with the info available here with any certainty.  If you feel you have done all you can or that it would be less stressful for all including the dogs to ask the breeder to have the younger one back then there is no shame in that.  If you want to try another behaviourist and can keep everyone safe in the meantime so you can know you have given it your best shot then you should do what you feel in your heart.  I appreciate it would be much easier if someone could tell you what to do in a difficult situation like this but ultimately it has to be your decision.

I would just say be careful who you choose, as the wrong behaviourist can do as much harm as good.  Make sure it is someone who uses up to date positive methods and isn't focussed on out dated pack theory.  Organisation to look at are APBC or some on the APDT also but do check out credentials.  Good luck.

Thanks for the replies. Yes it was just a check without tests etc, He did have to empty his anal glands which was one of the bizarre things he was doing (scooting and barking after a poo). The biggest problem health wise is his weight drop, it has been a gradual decrease (although appetite isn't really any less) so nothing sudden but he isn't showing any other signs.
The problem is I don't want to re-home him as I love him very much but I can see for myself that when I walk our eldest (on his own) he is full of energy and happy to meet strangers we encounter with a waggy tail and affection and as soon as we go back home he becomes like a timid nervous dog. When the youngest starts the growling etc he is put in the kitchen for a timeout but he barks and barks and barks and the eldest then just hides in a corner(not shaking or anything just looking sad). I feel like maybe I am prolonging his agony??
I will speak to the behaviourist again and see whether we can bring forward the appointment. I am also slightly concerned that if I go back to the breeder (who is aware of the problem) then she won't want to take him and I definately couldn't put him in a rescue :-(

Hello me again :embarrassed:

I am after a bit of advice; my vet referred me to a behaviourist who I have had several chats with. He is not under the apbt but works alongside a very well known rescue organisation. My issue is that the initial consult of approx 1 hour is £250, am I wrong in thinking that is alot of money? My insurance covers that amount but no more and I can't see this being a problem we can easily/quickly rectify.
If I contacted someone on the apbt register independently of my vet would the insurance still cover the costs?

I know that you say that you are concerned that the breeder (who is aware of the problem) may not be able to take him and that you cannot put him in resue.

But would it be possible just to speak to his breeder, they may well be able to offer you some advice and if at the end of the day he has to be rehomed they may well be able to put you in touch with someone.

It is also worth considering just speaking to your breed rescue, who again may have come across a similar situation and may be able to offer you good advice.

Hi Yabbadoo,

Follow this link here re: vet referrals http://www.apbc.org.uk/help/vet.  As your vet has already set up an appointment with a behaviourist that he knows, then there is no reason why he can not send a referal for one of your choice, especially a recognised apbc behaviourist, if a problem is there then a vet can not insist where you go for help, so have the referal sent to one of your choice and the insurance will cover it just the same, I don't think the insurance will cover if not a vet referal, but check your small print and also write to the site above then have your vet do the referral. :-)

i think £250 for a one hour consult is very expensive (you'd pay as much on Harley Street). What qualifications does this person have and how long have they been operating?

My strong advice to you is, as Husky Girl advised, go with an APBC person. APBC have people all over the country. Google APBC and the website will come up and within a list of QUALIFIED, EXPERIENCED behaviourists (sorry to shout).

Before you go that route though I would ask the breeder if they would be prepared to have the younger spaniel back for say a month and observe how the dog interacts with other dogs etc... This way if there is something wrong with the dog(medical or physiological) the behaviour will begin to emerge again and this might point to further medical investigation being necessary. If, however, the dog settles in and gets on okay that would indicate that something needs addressing on the home dynamics front and you either need a darn good behaviorist or to rehome.

Don't take my word for it, but sudden changes in behaviour, along with weight loss, general angst can indicate thyroid, but I'm sure your vet will be across all that.

If the breeder will take the dog back for observation make sure it's for a month at least. Any dog in a new/changed environment will watch itself for the first few weeks and you won't see its true colours.

Good luck

The weight gain and behaviour has been a gradual thing rather than very sudden. I am not sure what qualifications this behaviourist has other than working alongside/or for a well known rescue. I have recently contacted the breeder advising that if we are unable to fix the behaviour then we may be faced with no alternative other than to rehome him :-( but I haven't heard back yet. I am going to contact one of the registered behaviourists and enquire as to their charges etc and then if we are happy and they feel they can help us I will ask the vet to refer us to that one (thank you Carrington). I don't want to contact breed rescue as the breeder has links to this and I don't want her to feel I am going behind her back, I will wait for her to contact me. I have previously asked for advice but as she had never dealt with this before she wasn't in a position to offer any :-(

Ouch that is alot of money and I wouldn't be prepared to pay that much.  I do minor behaviour work whilst working towards the only recognised qualification in Behaviour and still wouldn't charge anywhere near that much.

Also look on http://www.ukrcb.org/ for information and behaviourists.

well, I have been spending alot of my free time obedience training (at home) with my boys and also teaching them little tricks and I have to say that this distraction is doing absolute wonders!!
It is obviously too early to say whether this will help in the long term but the whole atmosphere has changed!

> I make sure that the children are not left alone with them anymore and if I am really honest they don't want to be as they are very frightened that they may get hurt :-(

You are your childrens protector and your children should feel safe at home .
I notice your update and that your dogs and your children are doing better and i hope this continues , however if your children become frghtened again i personally believe you should rehome a dog for everyones sake . Not only your human family , but also for the sake of your dogs who live in this situation .
I don't believe that the dogs  would enjoy living with this tension and they could do not only your children but also each other a lot of damage .
Good luck . XXX

I agree with what you have said, my children will always come first and their safety is of paramount importance to me.

I am just completely going back to basics with them and starting again iyswim. I am going to look into whether there are any local classes for agility as I feel that the youngest is very intelligent and could benefit from some extra stimulation. It is such a shame that things have ever become like this, I have grown up with dogs and it was very rare for us to just have 1 in our house, I was also until I got our dogs a fosterer for an animal rescue and have never encountered these problems before after the initial settling in period. I was yesterday asked whether I would still open my house up to fostering but have reluctantly had to say that until I feel peace has been restored we will not look to foster or add to our pack :-(  One day I hope to look back on this and see it as a blip :-)

> One day I hope to look back on this and see it as a blip :-)

I am sure you will !  Keep at it and chin up !

Once all the advice and training has been followed, if you still have an electricity between them then you should do what is best for the dogs. In a similar situation, my daughter and I have 7 dogs between us at the same address and they all live in harmony but it has NOT always been this way. I had a rescue Golden Retriever and she had a rescue Boxer  and they were fine until a little scuffle going through a narrow gateway caused a fight. Things got worse so we tried all the behaviour and training we could find but they would still hurl at each other just on sight. The vet advised that if this happened across the field then at least one would be dead by the time we got there. We faced the inevitable that one would have to go. So I called the Retriever Rescue assoc. and they rehomed my beautiful GR with a lady vicar. It broke my heart to see him go as I felt as though I had failed him, but I knew he would have a good life with no more stress. The day the vicar collected him from me was so sad, but she sends photos and keeps me updated with his life, and as much as it hurts, I know I did the right thing for him, and I did this because I loved him so much.

Thank you for your advice. Did you have this problem before having all of your other dogs?

We had 5 dogs at that time, 3 boxers and my GR and a GSD. Originally my daughter and I lived at different addresses, but they moved house and asked if I would like the annex, so as I am retired I jumped at the chance to live with grandchildren. At first all the dogs were fine together for about 6 months, and we thought wow that was easy. Then as I said before the GR and the Boxer had a bit of push and shove going through a narrow gateway and ended up fighting and it seems as though neither would forget this and neither would back down again. Things went from bad to worse as mentioned previously. I still have the occasional tear on a down day for the fact that he had to go and hope that he understood that it was not a case that mum didn't want him, just that I wanted a better life for him. He had tooth marks all over his face, ears and neck and knew the vet was right that this would end in death. I know we did everything we could to avoid one of them being rehomed, but it had to be done. So as long as you know in your heart you have tried everything, then please let one of them go for their sake. If you contact the relevent rescue society then you know they are going to a good vetted home.
Good luck with your training, I really hope it works out for you and it doesn't come to this. Please give us an update from time to time.

I spoke too soon :-(
They had a set to last night.....my daughter was caught inbetween and although it was a scary situation for her no-one was hurt. I am very impressed with how she dealt with it she immediantly put her face to the floor and slid her body away without screaming or crying (they know that this could heighten the anger) but although I love my dogs I realise that we have reached the end of the line :-( :-(

I will be contacting the breeder today and if she is unable to help me with re-homing then I will be contacting the breed rescue. I feel very emotional and a complete failure, I have always had dogs (not cavaliers) and thought that I would always have a couple....I now don't know if i'll ever have another dog again in case I fail them too :-(

Thank you for all your advice and support

please don't feel you've failed, sometimes there really isn't anything you can do to stop this and i'm sure your dogs will be a lot happier once they have a home to themselves. after all it can't be good for them or your family to be stressed all the time.

You can see by the many multi dog owners on this site that this kind of situation where two dogs just won't get on is not the norm rather an unfortunate exception, especially in your breed.

In your situation it may be best to have a bitch next time as it is very rare for the opposite sexes to fight, one will need neutering of course, easiest to neuter the existing dog.

Please please don't feel as though you have failed, you will see from my posts that I have done the feeling of failure over and over again, and yet in my heart I know I haven't. Just think that the dog that leaves will probably have a really happy life with another home, far happier than they could have living in this stress. My GR used to stand and shake when we went out instead of getting excited, I think he dreaded meeting the other dog, and yet knew he would have to fight. Don't tell me that is the life of a happy dog.
You are doing the best thing for your dog because you love him and want the best for him. You will go through very low days with lots of tears, but it really is best for him which is what matters.
Well done for making this decision and try not to be too rough on yourself, and please don't let this stop you offering a loving home to another dog as this really does not happen very often. I completely agree with Brainless, opposite sex is preferable and definitely they or at least one will need neutering for an easy life as well as for health.

Do not blame yourself.  i have had to re-home a dog for the same reasons.  I had 3 bitches and the fights between them were horrendous and traun=matic.   And my sons are teenagers!  I had lots of advice but ultimately had to re-home 1.  She is happy as a spoilt single dog in a larg[ish] family.  The two we still have are happy and getting on together.  i understand your feelings of guilt, I still have some in my heart - couldn't I have sorted this? logically I know I did the right thing and the atmosphere is so much more relaxed.  Give you children, your dogs and yourself a chance to enjoy life - in the right circumstances.

PS - I def would get opposite sexes in future, making sure that at least one is neutered.

How do you decide which one to re-home?
I know it is normally the youngest but would it be easier to re-home the eldest as he doesn't start these arguments?

They are laid together at the moment asleep so its not like they are at it all the time but the slightest thing is setting them off now :-(

I have noticed that my eldest does seem to have "boudry" issues in that he is forever smelling the youngests bits and this makes the youngest go very rigid and he is not happy with this and it seems to be that when the youngest gives him a warning growl he just refuses to back off. When I have spoken to the behavourist she has recommended that one is re-homed as she feels that the issues they have will never be resolved. Am i doing the right thing?

How do you decide which one to re-home?

The one you think would find it the easiest to settle in a different home, and the one it would be easiest to FIND a good home for. But if there is no difference, then personally I'd say you keep the one you've had the longest -it seems only fair.

Am i doing the right thing?

One of my male dogs have been bullying one of the neutered male dogs for a while. It was nothing major so I didn't really worry about it (it was mainly body language, but the occasional fight which we quickly broke up), but it had been going on for some time -few months. Friday evening we were out (at the vets for an hour), and when we came home my stepson told me the younger (entire) dog had attacked the older one. The older dog was VERY seriously injured and nearly died and he is still not out of the woods. And this is a great big dog weighing 40 kgs, he outweighs the attacking one easily by 13 kgs or so. Only 8 so not elderly. He had around 70 bite wounds! We are still finding blood splashes everywhere. The vet bill was £806. Needless to say I can never let these two near each other ever again, but I am lucky in that my mother in law agreed to take the attacked dog as she lost her Labrador recently. She lives in a granny flat with us so I can see my dog every day but the two don't need to meet or even use the same garden. 

I wanted to tell this story as an illustration on how bad things CAN get -so yes, if the fights are turning serious and a good behaviourist has recommended the dogs are permanently split up, then I definitely would.

Thanks. I am sorry to hear of what happened with your dogs. The behaviourist feels that there are too many underlying issues. I know that I need to be strong and do what is best for them but it is so hard :-(

Deciding which to re-home can be difficult.  I talked about it on here another forum and with my sons.  Having 3 at the time - one olderx colie - no way was I going to re-home her she'd been with us about 8/9 years at the time [rescued her when she was about 2 - decision/crisis made when she was about 11].  The 2 younger bitches we had at similar times and there was only a few months between them [DO NOT DO THIS!] in age as well as when we got them.
I decided on Lou [Cocker] to be the one to be re-homed as:
She was the instigator of the fights - may be more relevant when more than 2 dogs
she would be happier as a single dog, needing a lot of attention
she had been spayed - so couldn't be taken on by someone wanting to breed
she's a more popular breed so more likely to be rehomed [I did not sell her by the way - I was lucky enough to be helped by a rescue society who found a really good home for her - that wa the most important thing for me and I felt I needed experienced people to vet a new home for her so I would know she was hapy and looked after and settled.
other young bitch more suited to me and my current l[and probable future] lifestyle - I had to take into consideration the ages and futures of my kids, as I've said they're older teenagers [in fact one turned 20 yesterday] and the likelihood of their involvement over the dogs' lifetime [dwindling].  Although my yongerst son had a very close relationship with Lou he was closely involved in the decision and agreed that it was the right one despite the fact that he misses her deeply still.

> They are laid together at the moment asleep so its not like they are at it all the time but the slightest thing is setting them off now :-(

This interaction can make you doubt yourself so much - I had the same, but it's better to sort the problem before anything so dangerous happens as did with MarrianneB's dogs.

> I realise that we have reached the end of the line :-( :-(
>
>

A very brave decision . It is best to do it now before one of them gets badly hurt . Let us know how you go on .

A bit of an update.....
We contacted the breeder and we were all set to re-home then we spoke to a local couple who had problems with their dogs and they recommended a behaviourist. We have had 2 visits and he has managed to spot lots of things we were too close to see. We are getting both dogs neutured as our garden backs on to an unspayed female and he feels that this is not helping matters. He has advised that there is no clear boss which means that they are both going for it when it happens, they are fighting over resources (mainly us) and we can now spot the triggers the stillness of body, the looks the sudden change in mood and we immediantly diffuse the situation (before it gets to snarling as it has then got too far) with clapping and getting their attention (mad i know :-) )

I have to say that the difference in the mood is amazing, we have only had one incident since which we diffused before it got to snarling and this was because they were both getting affection on someones lap (not mine) so we realise that we can probably never sit and cuddle up to them like we used to but that by being responsible caring owners we are showing them affection and love but in a different way. They have both been eating all their food and the youngest has gained weight and is looking fab (our vet was very impressed)
I really feel that things are going so well and they are both happy and I know we need to be on our guard but it is so much happier that I want to give things a chance.

Another strange thing is that my friend bought round her lab (2 years older spayed) and she grumbled at them and they both took it fine????

I would definately second some of the posts I have read on here that I would now ALWAYS leave a minimum of 2 years between dogs as this is the main reason we are having this problem and that is something I wholeheartedly take responsibility for but as long as we can work through it, it is a lesson learned.

Really could use some advice, we had the growling tonight and for the first time ever we didn't intervene but watched (not quite as sick as it sounds but we were right next to it) and they didn't hurt each other at all but I think we may have a dominance issue???
The youngest was growling at the eldest as the eldest went to sit on the cushion on the floor that the youngest was on then when they were growling at each other the youngest put his head and arm on top of the eldest and was just growling whilst he was doing so. We managed to diffuse it by clapping and saying "off" in a very load noise.

Am I going crazy or is this a dominance thing? (can't get hold of behaviourist in the evening)

At least I know they actually aren't going for each other and have seen it with my own eyes

What you describe sounds like resource guarding nothing to do with dominance, but it is very hard to say without seeing things and we are only getting snippets of information.

At least I know they actually aren't going for each other and have seen it with my own eyes

I thought you had seen them attacking each other previously - I would make sureyou use very careful management over the next 24 hours as they have both been stressed by whatever triggereed this and are therefore more likely to react to another trigger so I would make sure there is nothing as far as is possible for them to serss over in terms of resources,

> What you describe sounds like resource guarding nothing to do with dominance, but it is very hard to say without seeing things and we are only getting snippets of information.
>

I see that the resource was the cushion but the younger one over the top of the older on was that dominance?

> I thought you had seen them attacking each other previously

As I have said in previous posts this was my mistake in reading what was an argument as opposed to an actual fight> They are now lying together curled up on the cushion. I don't need advice on how to manage dogs that fight as we have covered the fact that I misread the situations before and these are not dogs that are fighting at all. I merely would like some information in whether this display was a dominant one - I have no concerns over what happened it was a telling off and the eldest backed down straight away as we left them to it rather than intervening and grabbing collars (although we were ready to intervene had it not be just an argument)

> I don't need advice on how to manage dogs that fight as we have covered the fact that I misread the situations before and these are not dogs that are fighting at all. I merely would like some information in whether this display was a dominant one

Then it may be worth starting a new thread.  Those of us that are trying to help will generally read back through the posts before answering but points can easily get missed, particularly when your comments are spread across two topics (Breed Advice).  Reactivating your old thread titled 'My dogs are fighting again' probably adds to the confusion.

will do :-)

How can I get the other 2 threads locked so that no one is confused?