I am sorry this is long winded, but any advice on how to deal with this would be great. i understand many people may be a little annoyed, angrydumbfounded at us for having 2 young puppies. believe me we have been called pretty much every name under the sun for doing this.

i have a 15 week old male border collie, Buddy and on saturday brought a 8 week old Golden Lab bitch, called Red, in the car home both dogs were fine, then when we got home my Border Collie would not leave Red alone, he keeps humping, nipping her ears, climbing all over her and rolling her over at first she would hide behind me.

Its has been 3 days we have had Red and the 'rough play' has not stopped, mostly it is buddy who starts it and seems surprised when she retaliates(sm), so ramps up his rough play and rolls her over and bites her belly or neck, at this point i step in and time them out for a few minutes but as soon as they are together again it starts.

we are trying to train Red at the mo but buddy will not leave us alone so he ends up in his pen watching.

At times they are fine, when they are asleep, he even lets her sleep in his bed sometimes, but once awake they are fighting again. very rarly are there growls only yelps when one is bitten to hard, which stops play for all of 4 seconds.

we are very new to the doggy world but both my girlfriend and i have plenty of time to dedicate to them, we both work a 4 on 4 off shift pattern i do days then nights, which overlaps by 2 days, so due to me working nights it is only 2 days in every 12 they are left at home for most of the day, as my girlfrined is home by the time i leave.

any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

i have been told on another forum, un-dog related forum, that we are the stupidiest people on earth to by 2 puppies that young so close together, maybe we are but these two dogs are in a loving home with someone around them the vast majority of the time to train and excercise them, which is better than leaving them all alone all day.

Also the breeder who sold us Red, yellow Lab, has said he will not buy her back as it was down to us to check compatability.
Alarm bells should of rung when we explained on the phone buddies age and if we could take Buddy to see the puppies to see if he got on with any of them were refused, he ended up tied to there railings outside there front door, while we looked at the puppies

This would be a challenge even for an experienced dog owner.  Although saying that, an experienced owner probably wouldn't take it on.  Seriously, I'd consider rehoming one of them sooner rather than later, it's not too late to decide you've made a mistake.

It's going to be harder than you can imagine to establish basic training, including toilet training.  You and your girlfriend will need to spend a lot of time working with each dog individually and I'm not sure how that will work with your hours.  Presumably you'll be sleeping during the day when you are on 'nights'.  It's difficult enough to establish a routine with a puppy, let alone two.  Having two pups does not make company for each other in the way you might hope and it more than doubles the amount of effort required to get each to sensible, and well trained maturity.

You may provide a loving home but these two very active breeds of dog will need far more than that.  For the dogs benefit, your own peace of mind, your relationship (and your belongings) I'd think again :)

First of all it really is not recommended to have two dogs so close together in age. I know lots of people who have kept littermates and most of them would never do so again. Unfortunately both pups will think the other pup far more interesting than you or any person, toy or treat. They will probably bond with each other more closely than they will with you and your gf. This makes training a lot more difficult and makes 'pack' behaviour more likely.

Puppy play can sound really serious, with lots of growling and squealing - this is perfectly normal and if the pups are a similar size and weight then there's no harm in leaving them to play together.

> it is only 2 days in every 12 they are left at home for most of the day

How long is most of the day? Pups need fed regularly and let out often for house training purposes. If you have to leave them can you get a friend or relative to pop in and check on them?

> Also the breeder who sold us Red, yellow Lab, has said he will not buy her back as it was down to us to check compatibility.

I wouldn't be concerned about getting my money back for the pup, I'd be concerned about the future happiness of both dogs. This could mean rehoming one of the pups, it doesn't sound like the breeder is a reputable one so I would probably recommend looking for a better home for her yourself.

> he ended up tied to there railings outside there front door, while we looked at the puppies

Please never ever leave your puppy tied up outside, they are so easy to steal and it only takes a few seconds to untie a lead.

I can completely understand why you thought you were doing the right thing. Dogs do like the company of other dogs, however two young pups together will egg each other on into all sorts of mischief. If you are determined to have two dogs then consider rehoming one of the pups and maybe taking on an older rescue dog. Rescues are full of older dogs that are already house trained, lead trained etc that would be a good role model for a puppy. If you go to a rescue that fosters its dogs out, you will get a true report on the dogs behaviour in the house and outside.

thank you for the prompt replies.

How long is most of the day? Pups need fed regularly and let out often for house training purposes. If you have to leave them can you get a friend or relative to pop in and check on them?
the 2 days we are both working together means they are left at home alone for 8 hours. at the mo my mum comes and feeds them and lets them out, if she cant my gf mum does it.

Please never ever leave your puppy tied up outside, they are so easy to steal and it only takes a few seconds to untie a lead.
we would/have never tied him up outside before and it was unlike us but the breeder was adament that he was not allowed in as the puppies had not been vaccinated.

As for a rescue dog we have been to a few rescue homes and even showed them our work rotas, we work at same place, i do 4 days then 4 off then 4 nights then 4 off and back to days. my gf does 4 on and 4 off but she is on only days and starts 2 days before me. it it the 2 days we both work together that they are alone, when im on nights i get home at 7am take him for a 1/1 1/2 walk then goto sleep till 2pm then play/train him, but they have all said that due to the 8/9 hours for them 2 days we both work together they are not willing to rehome to us.

but they have all said that due to the 8/9 hours for them 2 days we both work together they are not willing to rehome to us.
There is a good reason for them saying that.  It takes a huge amount of effort to make that situation suitable for a dog.  The people who make it work make their dog their life with no other socialising.  I wouldn't sell a puppy to a home with that situation.

Two pups really aren't a good idea, even for someone at home all day as others have explained.  It really would be better for the dogs to rehome one of them now.

A retired adult greyhound might have suited your situation.

How many times a day are the puppies let out? They'll need to be taken out into the garden at least every hour, for housetraining purposes, as well as after every game, every nap and every meal (the younger pup will still need 4 meals a day), as well as watching them like a hawk when they're indoors to make sure they don't get up to dangerous mischief or have housetraining accidents. Even when housetrained (this will take several months even if someone is home with them all the time) they shouldn't be left unattended for more than 3 or 4 hours. Have you organised a responsible person to do this?

To ensure that they primarilty bond with you and your gf, for every 5 minutes they spend together they'll need to spend 15 minutes apart, having one-to-one interaction with you. All training will have to be done separately for each puppy, as well as together. Have you both got the time and commitment to do this? If not then I'd seriously consider rehoming one of them. There's a reason that the rescue centres wouldn't allow you to have one of their dogs - at the moment your circumstances really aren't suitable for two untrained dogs, I'm afraid.

> they have all said that due to the 8/9 hours for them 2 days we both work together they are not willing to rehome to us.

A reputable breeder, whilst willing to be flexible, is also very likely to have refused you a puppy and no good breeder would have been willing to sell you a second one this soon.  Both for good reason.  No one is trying to be unfair - the urge to have a dog, like the urge to have children, can be a very strong one - but the breeder should be thinking of the welfare of their puppies.   

Having someone come in to feed the dogs is OK for older ones.  However, very young pups need to go out for a toilet break every 20 or 30 minutes to start with and they should be taken out separately til they've emptied their bladders.  They can have a short play after that but ideally you want them to toilet on command, not just play around - much more difficult with two.  Early training is hard work but pays dividends later.

> when im on nights i get home at 7am take him for a 1/1 1/2 walk

Much, much too long for such a young puppy.  5 minutes of formal exercise for each month of life is a good guide.  Playing in the garden and short training sessions will be quite sufficient.  Remember, little and often.  Your BC is a very active breed but do not be tempted to do too much, too soon.  Incidentally, do you know what health tests your labs parents had - have they been hip scored?  Sad to say, all the signs are that your breeder isn't the best.  You have a breed that may develop Hip Dysplasia so care with exercise, stairs, jumping etc is very important.  If you are planning on keeping her do take advice from a lab expert.  You may be able to access good breeders sites for further info or ask on here. 

From your original post it seems as if you knew what you might be letting yourself in for posting on a dog site.  Are you willing to consider rehoming one of the pups or are you wanting advice on how to manage keeping them?

Oh dear, you two mad people, your definitely living by the saying 'in for a penny in for a pound aren't you?' :-) at least I guess that is what you thought, I guess now you are realising how wrong you were.

You know it is a mistake, one pup really should be returned, you have two full on breeds here, both hyperactive and demanding as puppies, both with very different traits from different dog groups as well, meaning they will play differently and have different needs.

Experienced breeders would have to work darn hard to make sure both pups grew up well rounded, with good obedience and temperaments, it will be very hard work or one or both of these pups may grow up to be completely unruly, that will be your fault. :-(

1st choice would be to return one,

2nd choice........... if you wish to ride your luck and keep them would be to enrol quickly into puppy training classes taking them seperately this will help you to train the basics and give you the much needed stance of the authority figure here if you are to have any hope of raising them properly.  You then need to walk them seperately and train them seperately.  When not at home IMO you should keep them crated seperately to avoid damage, both breeds are liable to chew and become bored when not play fighting so crating would be better for them and your home.

The best way to raise these pups is to not treat them as a couple, but keep them apart quite often to focus on you and your partner, and on their individual needs, make sure that you get books on each breed to learn of their quite different traits and how to get the best from each breed, seperation will need to be done more often than not throughout puppyhood and adolescence and only when they are near adulthood can they begin to spend a lot of time together. So if your main aim was to get one for the company for the other, wrong and a big mistake, only during adulthood can you even contemplate this for long periods.

Think long and hard about whether you wish all of this hard work, if you do, do it right and best of luck, not impossible and very rewarding if you can do it, but for the sake of the pups decide quickly, nothing worse for a pup than being  re-homed and past from pillar to post. :-)

hi,
I just want to reiterate what has been said. Having one puppy is difficult enough, having two is just making a hard job even harder. Especially as you say you are new to dog ownership, and the ways of mischievious puppies.

I would seriously consider rehoming the collie. As in my expierience the lab will be more forgiving with regard to being left and IMO will be less of a handfull for you to train and get the best out of. Others may disagree with me.

If you are determind to keep the two of them, then you need to establish a solid routine and like has already been said spend time with them speratley. From what you have said it seems they are sleeping together, i would stop this. As it is making the bond between them stronger and the stronger the bond they have the more difficult it is going to be to get them to do what you want, as they will probably rather be with eachother than listening to what you have to say.

If they do have to be left for the 8/9 hours you say, then could someone not stop with them for longer than just letting them outside and feeding them?
I dont know what else to suggest but i really do feel that you will have the best chance of having a well rounded dog in the long run, if you halve your workload and rehome the collie.

Good luck.

A difficult decision to make, but I would advise to rehome one now. They will be hard work & to a novice dog owner it really doesn't bear thinking about. My cousin has litter brothers (border collies), it was the worst decision she ever made taking them both on. The breeder should never have sold them to her, she thought that they would keep one another company & play with one another. As you are finding out, that's not realistic at all. They are now 5 yrs old & still causing problems.....Owning a dog is hard work, but is enjoyable when you see progress, with 2, it will be one step forward & two steps back for a very long time. Good luck, hope this post makes other prospective dog owners stop & think before they take the plunge.

Return one pup now when you can still do it. I am a breeder and therefore it happens at times that I end up with an unsold pup due to no suitable home being available and I have no less than three sets of littermates. Set one is 7 ½ years old and they have never changed, they will always stay closer to each other than to any human. I can NEVER walk them together, and I do mean never, because as soon as they are together anything else ceases to exist, they only see each other and do not listen to anything. That is despite both being highly trained, the male has even competed in obedience.

Set two are fine, no problems at all -because I initially sold the dog and he didn't come back to me until he was 18 months old, so they did not grow up together. Which just goes to show what a difference it makes. :)

Set 3 is a total nightmare and leaves me sleepless at nights. They are 14 months old and both have major behaviour problems. To be honest if I had a time machine and was able to go back in time and find out just how many problems I would have due to having to keep two (litter of ten and last home fell through, no other suitable buyer appeared) I would seriously have considered having had one of them put to sleep even as the problems are that major and there is not enough time with each one having to be trained separately, walked separately etc. So please, put this right while you still can-you HAVE a crystal ball in a sense!

Also had you considered what will happen when your bitch comes in season?

Please re-home one while it is still without too many bad habits, and therefore more homeable.

As you will have seen from this forum too, we think you have bitten off far more than you can chew!

Having two puppies who are litter mates is bad enough for experienced dog owners (something I have only done once, and would NEVER do again!) - but it would seem from your post that you are inexperienced - you have two different breeds AND you both work - albeit you seem to have been able to make some arrangements about not leaving them for too long.

However, I'm with the others on this - and would seriously advise you to rehome one of the puppies - you will have bonded more with the border collie, but he will be the one who could cause mayhem when you are away.  Border collies are very intelligent dogs, do well with training - but they also have the ability to out-think an inexperienced owner!

Labs are more laid back at first - though when adolescence hits, then a badly trained lab will become a chewing machine if you are not careful!

Please come back and tell us what you decide to do.   And remember, its not really about what YOU would like - it should be about what's best for these two puppies!

I had 6 weeks between my first two, both male gundog breeds and they were fine. They did have someone with them most of the time though. Although they were close one became my husbands dog and the other came more to me. We still have this old boy now nearly 14, sadly we lost the other nearly 2 years ago. They were a handful but worth the effort.
I now try to keep about 4 years between dogs but with Flatties even that is like having 2 pups at once!!
Good luck, golden rule.....train seperately.

Its commonly though that they ideal age gap between two dogs is 18 months. One needs to mature first before considering getting another. Unfortunately its not unheard of for two pups to start fighting when they reach adolescence because they are evenly matched. Luckily you have differnt breeds and one of each sex which makes it less likely, but you also have two very highly charged breeds who need more than just a daily walk! They will not be able to go for long walks until they are a year old so the rest of the time they will need to be mentally stimulated, lots of training  and socialisation but seperately. I have had 4 dogs, work 5 hours a day and have a postgraduate diploma in dog behaviour and there is absolutely no way i could sucessfully bring up a collie and a lab together as you are hoping to do. Its a HUGE job. My first dog was a collie and she was getting about an hours worth of training a day split into short bursts, plus a walk, plus play, plus an hours training class each week. I couldn't have done two lots!
My boyfriend and i have litter mates from a litter we bred, however we don't live together, so the dogs have been brought up seperately, but spend a lot of time in each others company. We had visions of socialising and training them together, but this was not to be as they were a nightmare when they were out together, because they tended to amplify each others problems. If one was refusing to come back, so would the other. If one barked at another dog the other would join in. They wouldn't socialise nicely with other dogs as most dogs will put up with one pup, two is too much for most adult dogs. We went to seperate dog training classes. There is no way we could have coped if they were living together, because this way at least they know which one is their owner and have bonded individually with us and can cope not being together.
Basically what i'm trying to say is that this job is way too big for most experienced people to handle. Its no fun only 2 dogs when they are adolescent nightmares, pulling you down the street, and bullying the other dogs in the park, which unless you are able to put 110% into training them i'm afraid you are likely to have problems in the future. Collies are hard enough work on their own without adding the other dog into the mix. Please consider rehoming the lab before she bonds too closely to you, and concentrate on enjoying your collie as he deserves to have your full attention for the next 18 months at least.

If I had a pound for everytime I have heard new puppy owners say 'we think we will get two, they will be good company for each other'.  Re-home one (difficult I know) and put all your concentration into that one.  Puppies raised well are hard work and it lasts a good while. Think of them if not yourselves - sorry, don't want to sound harsh, just my opinion.

now normally im a soft touch and will disagree with most posts like 'nooo save the puppys' or 'you dont need to be so mean' but im so sorry on this occasion iHAVEto agree the best for you your girlfriend AND the dogs is to

re home one puppy while you still can.while they are still cute and have a pretty blank page(no bad manners ect)

i have four dogs.
two of them(my first two)i bought a few months apart ignoring all warnings thinking i knew better,i had a girl went to view another girl(same breed)but ended up being cheated out of the girl and so took the remaining boy left in the litter.
now my girl was born in december and my boy january.there are three weeks between them!!!

and ive had a really tough time,i (at the time didnt work)so i was home 90% of the day.BUT when i did leave they didnt keep each other comapny they destoyed more.they each ate one end of my dining table,together.doors FLOORS!!!!! bins gates chairs and they were restricted while i was out and walked and excersized every day as they should.terrible two was an understatement.

just imagine the damge these two can do while your working and someone is food shopping!
and thats only one problem i had,i kept my two BUT as much as i love them dearly id never have two puppies agin.
im not going to say silly you at all   but i will say be responsible admit you know its gonna be hard and re home one NOW.
to someone maybe you know and pups can play together when in prk or something
best of luck.xxx

i know this is going against what most people have said,but i have to say i had two border collie litter sisters who were wonderful dogs,ok,hard work for the first year,then i did it all over again with two more,when i lost them.i have one of the pair left,aged 14years now,and a pup.if id not stil got the old lady,idve had litter sisters again.just my experience.maybe i ve been lucky.I wish you luck whatever you decide.

I guess there are always gonna be success stories which is great but its not the norm.  The only issue I would have in keeping them both and it not turning out, is it would be harder to re-home an older dog with habits that could be harder for the new owner to deal with. You need to have so much time to dedicate to them both on an individual basis. 

It appeared that the OP was a first-time dog owner ...it's hard enough when one is an experienced dog owner to take on and successfully rear a pair of puppies and bring them up as well-behaved family dogs - I know from experience just how hard it can be :-)

For an inexperienced couple, I would be afraid that two puppies would just bring themselves up ....creating havoc and mayhem in the process!

I consider myself to be an experienced dog owner and I know I would never take on two pups at once.

With us, it was a case of heart ruling head ! :rolleyes:!

As other peeps have said already, they bond with each other more than with you which means training will be more difficult and maybe not successful at all.  You really need to take them out seperately, train them seperately, play with them seperately to make this work.  The other danger is, despite growing up together they might fall out big time in a few months down the line and then you have to keep them seperate all the time....extremly stressful.  If that happens you will readily rehome one anyway, so maybe better now then in a years time.

It's your choice of course.

You are right it can work but although I wouldn't do it and from everthing I read the odds are against you I have a friend who did  with a pair of gsd brothers and was a first time dog owner 
She had the time (worked from home part time) motivation and energy to play with them separatley train and walk separately.They are now 2 beautiful well trained boys at 2 years old who certainly listen to her and her husband before each other but as others have said you really have to have that time and ability.

Maybe you have? but it does look like a long hard road ahead if you keep them both

I have 2 young puppies, white Shepherd, 12 weeks and a black Lab, 9 weeks old, both get on. toilet training really good :)   sleep together, play together, and few rought games, both girls.  they not been naughter (no chewing) ect! good in the garden!

I had Litter Sisters....still have them! No problems, even though I had 2 older dogs, same breed. What you need here is time. Time to housetrain/socialise both pups. I wouldn't rehome either of them. If you are dedicated & determined, go for it! They'll bring you nothing but joy :) Is it a male & female? If so....have one of them 'seen to' I have also sold 2 pups to one Family (shock, horror) on the condition that one was neutered/spayed. They had them both 'done' & they live a happy fulfilled life. As for the 'humping'...I have a 16 week old boy who's trying to hump my girls, but they just turn their backs & totally ignore him. There are a few moments when the girls get fed up of him hanging off their ears, but harmony reigns here, as I'm sure it will do in your home too, eventually. Like I said.......time & dedication, & love. As for putting one in the pen...that's favouritism (sp) & wouldn't advise that. Good luck with your new babies xx

Sadly it's down to the ineptitude of the breeders this problem has arisen, certainly the lab breeder as the BC pup was taken along to see those pups, and most likely the BC breeder who should have vetted the prospective owners better! Doubt if that breeder cared any more than that of the lab!

8 week and 15 weeks pups are at completely different stages in their lives, and the older pup is going to be much more boisterous ... he's older. That's what older puppies do and how they play. Why should the 15 week pup leave you alone when you're training the younger pup? Your time should be devoted to just the one pup ... everything that you do, or don't do, is 'training' at these ages.

An almost to the year update.

its been nearly a year since i posted my post and thought id give an update.

after reading the posts from here and other forums i had a week of sleepless nights, and not because the puppies kept me up, thinking if we should get rid of one.
My GF and i both decided it not to be fair to have to pick one to resell so we decided to keep them both and in my honest opion it was the best choice we have ever made.

we now have two of the most beautiful, obedient dogs in Norwich from the first time they were allowed out we let them off the leads, when they are young they wont go to far from you and if you have treats theyll always come vack.
Red, the lab, is a bit of a steam train on the lead but after a good run she is to knackered to pull quite so hard.

im not gonna lie and say its been easy, it has been a year of hard work and early morning walks, mostly by my GF, and constant training.
it has been a year of ups and downs but we have dogs that have perfect recall, not once have they run off when the lead comes off, both were housetrained very quick and know more tricks/commands than paul daniels.

downs include, demolished furniture, just last week they got bored at home and pulled the as yet unpaid for ofa to pieces, 3 sky remotes used as chew toys, 2 pairs of my glasses eaten, 100's of holes in the garden and around 1000 socks that now have holes in them.

ups being people stopping us in the street to say how gorgous the two dogs are and just how well they now get on.

they remind of us of jack and vera duckworth, red the bitch is a bit crazy and defo the boss and buddy being the henpecked man just sitting there as red laps up the attention.

i think we were very lucky with the dogs as very early on red did show dominance, never aggressive, over buddy and buddy seemed to be happy to let her be in charge. buddy is a bit of a wimp, but will protect red if other dogs are a bit 'overfriendly' to her.
and although she is the boss at home shell fall on her back and lift her legs up if another dogs takes to much intrest in her.

so whilst i wouldnt recomend buying 2 dogs both young we are loving every day with them and would be lost without them, they are are family now, our little hairy children.

I'm glad it worked out all right for you, believe me it doesn't for everyone. Sometimes the problems occur when they are puppies and sometimes when they hit adolescene and sometimes when they hit adulthood around 18 months of age. There is no knowing when these things can occur unfortunately, i've known two adult bitches suddenly decide they will hate each other at 6 years of age and two boys hate each other at 18 months. I tend to advise people to try and avoid the heartache by not even trying it!

glad to hear things have worked out for you :)

Well done you have obviously worked very hard and it has paid off for you.  So glad that you are over the moon with your dogs.

Obedient dogs don't pull on the lead lol ;)

Glad it's working out for you... :)

I am glad it is working out for you but please don't underestimate the problems that can happen when they hit their "teens", this is when our problems started before that we had 2 of the best friends you could find.

As the OP has a dog and bitch problems of that nature are unlikely, it is just the discipline and training that will be more of a headache with the two.

Sorry OP I "thought" they were both males so yes ignore my comment the problems we had aren't really applicable to you. Glad it is working out for you. x