http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/8386023.stm

I wonder what kind of dog it was.

We'll find out soon enough.

very very sad

The poor dog.

It sounds like the Ellie Lawrenson situation. Liverpool, middle of the night, grandmother involved, dog shot at the scene.

All we need is the drugs and the thug dog owner.

its a shame to say it but sounds like that dont it,
i mean what make a dog go nuts like that were police have to shoot it at the scene sounds like a wild animal not a family pet , very sad the poor baby its just awful,

ITV news have just reported it as 'pit-bull or mastiff type'.  So, could have been any large bull breed/cross by that description.

So terribly sad for the family :-( 

> ITV news have just reported it as 'pit-bull or mastiff type'.  So, could have been any large bull breed/cross by that description.
>
> So terribly sad for the family :-(

Dogs don't snap for no reason, it makes you wonder what life it had and how it was brought up. It's sad for the family but you reap what you sow.

>It's sad for the family but you reap what you sow.

I agree with this to an extent....such tragedies are almost always entirely avoidable.

But once again there will be a backlash on all mastiff and bull breeds :(

well in that paricular area of Liverpool I would expect it to be a staff (sorry staffy owners) but that is the  breed  usually owned especially in particular areas of Merseyside.

Very sad indeed ..I am wondering why a 4 yr old is out of bed at midnight where are the parents ?? they have mentioned his grandmother so maybe he was sleeping over...havent heard much more they are saying on local news all will be revealed later today.

R~

Just been a bit on 5 news.......police had had complaints about 'dangerous dogs' at the property back in Feb but had not followed up.......... :-(

Shoot the owners not the dog!!

A 4 yr old could have been out of bed for a number of reasons, the loo, a drink, missing mum if, etc etc.

I also have Ch 5 news on and heard them say that the police had had complaints about dangerous dogs at that address earlier in the year that hadn't been followed up. They also said that an older brother saw the whole incident. :-(

It's sad for the family but you reap what you sow.

A 4 year old child is not responsible for the actions of his family.

I said this on a previous thread but the fact of the matter is that some dogs are bred for high levels of aggression. Yes, all dogs can bite, but there are few breeds that will carry out a sustained attack on a person.

The dogs have become a victim of what they were originally bred to possess. These breeds attract a minority of idiot owners resulting in tragic consequences.

I don't agree with the sentiment "it's not the dog it's the owner" - it's more "it's owners who either don't acknowledge what their dog was bred to do or who exploit what their dog was bred to do for negative purposes".

I know perhaps not a popular point of view

Karen:

Don't you mean 'The poor child' ?

i just heard o lbc radio news that the owner of the dog was an uncle who was away serving in the forces, but in saying that LBC have been known to get things wrong so not sure if thats right or not,

oh and yes now their saying All dogs should be muzzled licenced and on leads in public ,
i dont agree with muzzling why should i muzzle my boy when im in an empty park i like to throw a ball for my boy and play so how would muzzling him help,

How very sad, poor little lad xx

i cant see the point in making All dogs go out wearing muzzles when most of the time these sort of attacks are happening inside the family home with dogs that the family own,

The dog must be destroyed after killing a little boy - would you be happy living near a dog that had killed a child, I know I wouldn't.  The law needs to change drastically. It MUST stop any tom, dick or harry owning any breed of dog that they fancy. I know its pie in the sky to even contemplate introducing such a law, how would it work? We are stuck in this situation, responsible dog owners will have to muzzle their dogs and feel alienated just for owning a large bull/mastiff type dog and the **** that own them who have no idea of what they own, they will carry on as normal while we wait for another accident to happen - I dispair.

I am saddened by it, yet another innocent child has died, having two small children of my own it breaks my heart.

I heard that too and laughed, i mean how exactly will keeping all dogs on leads and muzzled in public places prevent small children from being attacked and killed by thier own dogs inside thier own home? Or are we soppsed to have all dogs on leads and muzzed indoors too? Hardly any of these incidents are happening outside in public, in fact in recent years NONE of the attacks that made the news happened outside the home, so what use is it to only muzzle dogs outside in public if it is in the home that these attacks occur?

It's about time that the police & authorities came down hard on these breeders who continue to breed pit bull types. Unconfirmed reports that these 'owners' had been reported to police about breeding. Have to assume they were pit bulls or x's or why would police be involved?

That poor, poor child, that family will have to live with the guilt for the rest of their lives. Common sense & an understanding of just what any dog is capable of is all that is needed. They should show the aftermath on the television, perhaps that might make people sit up & take notice.

i think the dog was destroyed i heard 2 things not sure where i heard the first one maybe futher up this thread it was shot by police that night, but lbc reported in was later pts, but lbc have been known to get it wrong,
i think your right in what you say a change is needed but even if we were all made to muzzle our dogs that would not have changed what has happened to this and many other children and babies sad but true,
pit bulls were banned because of the attacks on children the last straw was the cild in the park that got attact, then they were banned , now we have them killing kids in their own homes so cant say that rule helped those children,
Idont know what to say to do for the best really , ban youths with dogs but then thats not fair on those of you who have id say Normale children that actully do handling with your dogs and are responsible , and in this case still would not have helped this boy and some other children that have suffered the same as this boy,

i always am annoyed that their are restrictions on dog ownership (the DDA) but any idiot can produce a child.

I read it was destroyed by police marksmen at the scene.
I also read a description of the dog, given by a neighbour, as 'a big white bull-terrier type'.
'Big' is debatable, if you aren't a dog owner they all seem big. Same as if you only have a pet Yorkie.
The white though implies anything from a white Boxer through to AMB to a Dogo Argentino. (and before you say anything, I heard there were Dogos being advertised for sale recently on the Isle on Man). None of it implies anything dangerous except for the fact that too many people are getting the wrong kinds of dog these days for the wrong kind of reasons, and they are being brought into family situations where children are present. We don't know the ins & outs - maybe never will.

I think the wrong sort of people had the wrong sort of dog........ my parents and in the past grandparents have owned bullmastiffs so the family have been brought up with them, we have never had problems with any of the dogs, but I can say for deffo that these are not the dog for first time owners as they like any bull breed are very strong willed, and totally devoted to the family.

If your not used to this type of dog don't have one as I said wrong breed for the wrong person, a lack of understanding of how to handle them I think, very sad situation.
 

When I first heard this on the news I found it completely remarkable that no breed was mentioned.  Whenever news of this type is given out the first thing they like to broadcast is the breed; this usually being - pitbull//mastiff/rottweiller/staffie/bulldog/dogue de ./type..  I found it singularly absent. Stating the breed that is. I don't/haven't owned any of these breed types and do have some bias against some kinds of owners of such [those seeking 'status' and/or engaging in dog fighting and other blood 'sports'] but find that these are the ewsworthy breeds.
A HUGE question I have is 'How did the dog gain access to a 4 year old child in the middle of the night?'  Unless I'm mistaken that's when the attack occured.

StarryEyes - it may have been a staff but a staff doesn't fit the description of a large pitbull/mastiff type of dog so it seems unlikely at this stage.   I'm not saying staffs are incapable of this kind of thing - but much of the time it's this kind of misidentification which means any dog that is stocky and smooth coated gets labelled as a staffy. The standard for Staffies is 16 inch max and whilst I know they run taller than that I don't think anyone would call them a large dog - my own was 17.5 inches to the shoulder and was pretty much as tall as you normally see them. 

It said on the news tonight the dog, an American Bulldog 'type' was shot at the scene. Unfortunately no action was taken by Police or local authority when concerns were raised over breeding at the house earlier in the year.
It is plainly obvious that specialist units with ultimate authority to seize banned breeds kept by undesirables as 'weapons' is needed. My friend & her family are all dog owners in London & now are afraid to walk their dogs in parks because of these 'types'.
My sympathies to the boy's parents & brother who is said to have witnessed the scene. 

My friend & her family are all dog owners in London & now are afraid to walk their dogs in parks because of these 'types'

im with your friends and her family on that one, i to am in London and not a very nice part of it , we'r rife around here with Gangs of teens and their macho dogs, thats why i say these type of people the youths should be banned from having dogs at all but how do you do that kind of thing without discrimanating against certin groups,

> It is plainly obvious that specialist units with ultimate authority to seize banned breeds kept by undesirables as 'weapons' is needed. My friend & her family are all dog owners in London

There is.

And in Merseyside too.  Get cracking down on these types of owners because it's just getting to the point of ridiculous now.

RIP poor poor little boy.

WolfieStruppi - American Bulldogs are not listed as Dangerous. If the dog/s were AMB then why would anyone take action? They're not banned under DDA. However...... if they were causing issues under DDA section 3 (which applies to any breed) then yes the police should have followed it up. BUT and big but, it doesn't apply to dogs on home premises.
Under current law you can lock up, muzzle, PTS any dog you like, but it would not stop a child being hurt or killed unless you restrict the owners.

But do we want the law tightened so much it starts to apply to us and our own dogs? They tried to put through an amendment to the DDA in October that made it an offence for anyone's dog to be *cough* dangerously out of control on private premises.... very subjective, a barking dog could be construed as that.... or also "if it injured an other animal"... (that could be judged as a dog killing a mouse!). Thankfully that amendment did not get through but you can bet they will be trying again for it now, legally they can push for it again in a certain timeframe when parliament is back & I bet they try.

Oh and we have the esteemed Cesar Millan here now spouting rubbish which could (and already has) resulted in more dogs being PTS for aggression. I would not want to be a British dog right now.... we're suddenly between a rock and a hard place.
Conspiracy theory, anyone....?

Sadly when I read these stories my first thoughts aren't for the poor child or their family anymore. I feel a sickening dread for our own dogs and what stupid laws will be put in place to restrict our pets but just be flouted by the idiots!

I've owned many different breeds and crossbreeds in my life and only ever been bitten by one -  a JRT! Some of the softest dogs I've known could have been classed as 'pit bull types' but because they were owned/bred by responsible people they have had excellent temperaments. In saying that, if one does turn or attack then it is so much more powerful and bred (initially) for aggression that the consequences are much more likely to be serious.

I myself had to rehome my beloved dane when she savaged a small dog - the dog was attacking her and she retaliated but her size alone meant the small one didn't stand a chance. It broke my heart but her whole attitude changed and I just couldn't risk her being startled by one of my children and doing the same. Thankfully I was able to rehome her with rescue help to a great couple with lots of land and giant breed experience.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that NO dog should be trusted 100% (and no child either) but legistation like the DDA doesn't work with IDIOTS who put the look or image of a dog before the temperament and family circumstances.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2751733/Boy-4-mauled-to-death-in-dog-breeder-house.html

think someone else commented on why the child was wandering around at gone midnight , and ok maybe he wanted a drink but then the 13 year old was also up it was a school night both kids should have been tucked up in bed,
it does not look likley that their was proper adult supervision between the dog and the children,
i agree with you Zaska i would never trust any dog 100% even my own and my dogs are well socialized and love kids but you would still never take the chance kids can do silly things i know some of my 11 year olds friends who come to my door for my son act very foolish around our dogs i Always keep a close eye on them as if i was a dog myself theirs a few of my sons pals i'd like to bite on the butt just for being stupid,
iv had kids thowing stones at my dogs making barking noises at them banging on my garden fence and running away,
they do this over my garden fence and im forever telling the kids to pack it in as it is tormenting the dogs, then i bring my dogs in, kids can be very silly again not their fault the parents should be teaching the children how to behave around dogs and that by provoking them you risk some dog turning on you one day,

not saying thats what happened here but just talking in general from my experiance,

i feel sad for the boy but like you Zaska, Sadly when I read these stories my first thoughts aren't for the poor child or their family anymore. I feel a sickening dread for our own dogs and what stupid laws will be put in place to restrict our pets but just be flouted by the idiots!


iv felt like this for along time now as when you look at the All the attacks on kids theirs been over the last few years (and i could reel a good few off~)its Always the familys who have brought this on them selfs and it makes me mad as hell to think that oneday my dogs may have to be muzzled because of someone elses mistaken foolishness,

sorry if its harsh but i did say before about the baby Archie that was mulled by the Rottie i had no sympathy for the parents only for the child , i think the parents should have been prosecuted for neglect, they left their baby with and two young toddlers with a 16 year old baby sitter and a rottie dog that was always shut in the yard that i might ad they had not had the rottie for long either,
then the 16 year old starts walking near the dog carrying this baldheaded thing that makes noises , ie the baby,
how the heck is a yard dog whos not been socialized around children ment to know thats a baby and not a squeeky toy shes holding,
then its all the dogs fault and Rotties get another black mark against their name, it makes me mad as hell sorry for the long rant,

I'm sorry but I don't see the significance of the kids being up? How many folk have dogs and kids who get up cause they need a drink or a cuddle when they are ill and don't get attacked by the dog? Are you trying to blame the kids rather than the dog owners? I know that kids can provoke reactions in some dogs with their behavious etc but I also know that certain types of people keep certain types of dogs for certain reasons and I'm sure there are folk like this in every city and town in this country! They give some breeds a bad reputation and if this address has been reported for breeding dangerous dogs (as said in the news yesterday by the police who are now doing an internal investifation) then maybe the kids were totally innocent in all this. I'm sure we will never hear the true story anyway as the media like to write 'stories'.

I to just don't see why the child should not be up in the night. Children staying in a strange house may well not sleep as well as at home and may need to go to the bathroom etc
Surely common sense says that if you have a large powerful dog which might injure or kill a child then the dog should be restricted if you are not there to actively supervise it. Much easier to put the dog in a cage or locked room than a child.
I do feel very sad for the child but I also worry about possible changes to the law which will affect dog owners. Whilst the death of even one child is tragic, the risk of being killed by a dog is tiny compared to many other things. How many children each year are killed in car crashes? how many killed when crossing the road? how many are killed by their own parents? many many more than are killed or injured by dogs. Only the very worst cases make the national news these days.

I did read an article some years ago that said that people find dog attacks so  shocking because for thousands of years the human race has evolved to be scared of large animals with teeth in the same way as many peole have fears of snakes or spiders. We have only has perhaps a hundred years of living with cars and therefore have not evolved to be frightened of fast moving metal boxes.

I think we should be very careful about calling for increased legislation for dogs. After all there are 6 millions dogs in this country and the vast majority of people do take reasonable care with their dogs. law abiding owners may well comply with laws were brought in requiring licensing, muzzleing, lead walking etc, but the people who are now keeping pit bulls and "weapon" dogs are just going to ignore these laws too.
It is impossible to legislate to eliminate every risk that may affect people and I think the more laws we have, the more people stop using common sense and start saying, "but the government should do something"

It may not have been a staffy but as I said I live in Liverpool and there is a staffy on every corner, usually with a group of teenagers on the other end of the lead goading them to growl at other dogs who are walking past with thier owners, minding thier own business, that is why I made the comment, not the poor dogs fault I know  but it is still quite frightening when I am out with my 3 dogs alone.
I live in the suburbs in a nice area but it goes on here too its not just in the inner City where this terrible attack happened. I  know the area where this incident occured of which I will say no more.

Very sad for the little boy and the family .

RJS It may not be of any significance why the kids were up at gone midnight but my boy never got out of bed and wandered around at that time of night for whatever reason he called me to him . I was not trying to blame the child what a ridiculous comment under the circumstances.

Roni

>> It is plainly obvious that specialist units with ultimate authority to seize banned breeds kept by undesirables as 'weapons' is needed. My friend & her family are all dog owners in London
> There is.
>
> And in Merseyside too.  Get cracking down on these types of owners because it's just getting to the point of ridiculous now.
>
>

Berkshire too....   the "new" under class that we seem to be spawning in this country. Some how I feel  that is the real problem and until that is dealt with the rest will not go away!! IMVHO

Of course it is a staffy type used in the illustration in the Sun article.

so far the responses have been regarding idiot owners not the dogs.

Its so sad for the little boy... its a waste of a life.
The family will have to live with the guilt forever now and thats sad also.

I just wish people would be responsible when owning dogs, whatever the breed. It only takes a second for a dog to change. It only takes a second to read a situation and change it..

I have to agree brainless.. idiot owners (however im bracketed into that as i own stb's, however responsible i am)

I think the one thing the DDA has done is glorify certain types of dog, making their image into nothing but weapons or something to show off with for a certain type of person. I'm certain it has got worse, not better. I don't know what the answer is but I think that if Pit Bulls and any anything similar gained a reputation for being, say, great guide dogs or hearing dogs, children's pets etc, they would soon lose their appeal from the wrong people. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to change the image like that, because it isn't ONLY the image any more, it's the dogs themselves. It IS the breed in many cases, as WELL as the owners, because the wrong people have BRED them that way.You can breed in aggression just like you can breed in a good retrieving instinct or herding instinct or anything else.

as always it is the lack of forethought.  My youngster is fantastic with children despite my not having any but I wont leave her alone with them just in case they do something to her that she cant tolerate - I just wont put any of mine in that situation its not fair on them as they would be the ones paying the ultimate price if something went wrong simple as that.

You can just see it though that within the next ten years all dogs will have to be on a lead if it is outside of your land and will have to be muzzled whether the majority of these attacks are taking place in the home or not. 

> RJS It may not be of any significance why the kids were up at gone midnight but my boy never got out of bed and wandered around at that time of night for whatever reason he called me to him . I was not trying to blame the child what a ridiculous comment under the circumstances.
>
> Roni

I asked the question as a generalisation since so many folk seem to be wanting to know why the child was up at midnight which I find rediculous given the circumstances!! Perhaps the little one woke his big brother rather than his grandmother? My son used to get up, go to the loo, be sick and him opening doors or being sick would wake me! As I said we don't know and may never know.

The kid looks such a sad little mite in the photo on the beeb website.  Poor little boy, rest in peace.

the story and another story has been on this morning, not a big out come about it,but stating pit bulls and staffies as a big issue.
what about other breeds,i have know of a couple of gundogs breed that have biten a child{lucky not my dogs}and not so good with childern.
why is it as well the most people get biten by labs beacuse there so are so may of them bred a year to. long with staffie as the high rate register breed of dogs at the kennel club.you dont hear about the labs that in the news,
as for the little boy up in the night, was he up stairs when he was up. where the dog allow to have a free run of the house.lost of thinks got to be question.
i still think all dog should be lincesen and chip.on a leads in public areas.even when i see another dog in the distance mine are back in the lead,
mine are not allowed up stairs,
mine are out side when we got guest,and will be when my granchild  arrives in jan 2010,just wouldnt but my dogs in a sistution with out me being here.i know in my heart i can trust my dogs  but it only takes that 1% for the tables to turn.even mine are gundogs breeds they are still a pack of dogs.

mine are out side when we got guest,and will be when my granchild  arrives in jan 2010,just wouldnt but my dogs in a sistution with out me being here.i know in my heart i can trust my dogs  but it only takes that 1% for the tables to turn.even mine are gundogs breeds they are still a pack of dogs.

Same here , and your right their alot of questions that need answering

ok so the kids being up , not their fault of cause , BUT are they allowed up and to be running about at all hours with NO proper adult supervision and is the dog just left to roam around as it likes ,
either way it comes down to the Adults in the house to be aware of whats going on with children and dogs,

lets all be honest here and say that our dogs live with us are well cared for and trained and  part of our family and yes our own children can wake in the night and want something Do Any of you really fear that your own pets would do this to one of our kids?,

i am sure if many of us with dogs and kids really thought this was likley we would rehome the dog to somewhere more sutibal for them asap,

its already been said how the dog in this case was lorded around the street made to growl at others and people were affraid of it,

this is not the sort of pet id have in my home around my child,

By briedog   Date 01.12.09 11:50 GMT Edited 01.12.09 11:53 GMT 
i still think all dog should be lincesen and chip.on a leads in public areas.even when i see another dog in the distance mine are back in the lead,

So what use would that be to anyone? How would having a license & chip prevent small children being killed by family pets in thier own homes? The sad truth is that none of the attacks of recent years have been in public places, they have all been inside the dog's own home. Besides, do you honestly think that people who are already breaking the law by owning a breed that was banned under the Dangerous Dogs Act are going to have thier dog chipped?

The real crux of the problem is not the dog itself, it's the sort of people who are getting these dogs who are the problem. Responsible dog owners already know that you don't leave children unattended with powerful dogs, just like they already know not to let thier dog offlead if it's not appropriate to do so.

Forget about making all dogs have to be chipped, on lead or even muzzled in public places, that's not going to stop children being mauled to death in thier own homes. It is the owners who are the issue here, like the one today who allowed her pitt bull cross to chase after my dogs accross the field, without even bothering to ask me if my dogs were ok with unwanted approaches, then complained when my 2 growled and told it to bugger off..

Agree Flyball. Deal with the idiot owners by not allowing them to keep these dogs.  
Ms Temeraire - I know AB's aren't a banned breed.
I'm thinking more along the lines of a DOA (Dangerous Owners Act). This act would have NO impact whatsoever on responsible dog owners & their dogs, whatever the breed. However I seriously doubt that any political party in this country would have the guts go implement it.    

This is a tragedy - poor child, what horrors he must have gone through and the trauma witnessed by his brother also.  May he RIP and somehow may his family manage to deal with the consequences of, it would appear, breeding and owning such a dog.

Although such horrific events are thankfully rare, IMO there are more to come and always will be while any dogs are bred with the specific intention of living up to their historic roots be it fighting or attack.  There is no place in society for such dogs bred by morons which can and do end up in ordinary pet homes just as easily as their intended 'macho' market :(

If the police had the rights (perhaps they do already?) and manpower to seize any suspect dogs owned by or living with those having a criminal record for drugs or violence then perhaps their appeal would reduce.  There would be little point in making this breed specific as it would only mean those currently using dogs as weapons would move on to another breed or cross which would give them the same level of protection/attack that they have managed to bring out in Staffs/Mastiffs et al.  No medium to large guarding breed for example is safe from ending up in the wrong hands and if (when) it does we can be sure they would breed only the most aggressive together to ensure they got yet another lethal canine but outwith the look of 'Pit Bull type' and so bending the law as it stands.

I don't think there is a cure all situation available but unless dogs bred by the under world of society for 'weapons' are culled, things IMO can only get worse.
Teri

Sorry don't get why all dogs should be licenced???Only those of us who care would do it and these types who don't wouldn't bother.  It would not resolve a thing, but make those of us who already pay taxes etc. have to pay yet again for the low life in this country.

RIP

Just read a report that it was a dog deemed illegal under the DDA :( Stupid people, stupid, stupid people, when will they learn?

I'm surprised it's been deemed illegal under the DDA if it really was an American Bulldog.   However there are two sorts of American Bulldog - I think the Classic and the Standard (might have the terminology wrong) - one of them doesn't have the classic bulldog type features - brachycephalic skull etc - and could be deemed to be of pitbull type.    They are even shown in seperate classes.   I only know this as my father in law has an Am Bulldog and shows it at Am Bulldog shows - they aren't my cup of tea personally - bit too powerful as i have youngish kids.

If it was, they might as well have had a loaded gun in the house, not much difference in my opinion. Stupid, irresponsible, dog owners, not dog lovers.

I should imagine that there are very few instances where a much loved family pet has mauled a child to death. The owners are at fault every time. My heart goes out to the 2 little boys only, not the rest of the family, they should be prosecuted for manslaughter.