I am new to this forum but wondered if anyone here could give me some advice. I have 2 bitches that are not getting along. they are not fighting yet but there is definite tension between them. I have seen a behaviourist and she has suggested spaying them both. Just wondered if anyone had tried this and had any success? I really don't want to rehome either of them if I can get them to live together. I had wanted to breed from the younger one but am happy to spay her if it will help, but just don't want  to lose the chance of a puppy from her if spaying won't make a difference?

Spaying both will not change the dynamics between them, and in fact it has been noted that spayed bitches are more likely to fight with their softening hormones removed.

The only time it would be helpful is if the disagreements occur when one or other is in season, then removing this trigger will be helpful.

Of course if they are fully mature bitches not destined for breeding then spaying may be a good thing to do anyway, unless they are of the large breeds particularly prone to spay incontinence.

wow, thanks for the quick reply. Both bitches are entire at the  moment. the behaviourist who is  a vet as well said that the reason for spaying them both was to stop the cycling of hormones which could affect their moods. She said with the hormones removed they would in effect be the same all the time  rather than being different as the hormone levels change. She says seasons are a time when fights are more likely to start.
they are Border Collies. The older one had a litter this year  but I don't especially want to breed her again,  and i had planned to brteed from the younger one in a year or two to keep a puppy.
Last time they were in season there were no particular problems. Thye problems have started since.

I've never heard of spaying a bitch with aggression problems to be honest.

The old saying - "a dog and a bitch will never fight. Two dogs will sometimes fight. Two bitches will always fight" springs to mind lol

Is there anything in particular which causes the tension? For example, I have one dog who you might say had aggression problems. His only trigger is meal prep times. So, problem is solved simply by keeping him in another room at this time. Often we can avoid trigger events by changing our own behaviour or changing how we react to their initial signs of aggression. I was watching Autumnwatch last week and the presenter, Chris Packham, had his two poodles on his lap. One began snarling and showing teeth to the other and his response was to calmly place his "line prompting" card between them and so breaking eye contact - problem solved :)

Perhaps you would like to share a little more about when and what causes the problem and we might be able to give advice on that

xxx

thanks. there is not one thing that causes problems.  It seems to me  the younger bitch seems to be  trying  to become  dominant over the older bitch.   There  is tension between them quite a lot. EG if the older one comes into a room where the younger one it the older one is a little reluctant to enter unless she knows where the younger one is. The younger one will go up to the older one and stand over her with her tail up and just seems to be trying to provoke a reaction.
there have been a couple of minor scuffles for  instance the older one came in from  the garden, and the younger one who was asleep on the settee just lept up and laid into her. No serious damage but still worrying
i don't play with the two of them  together as that will cause problems.

The younger one has done this type of thing before to a crossbreed I used to have and that escalated to the point where they had a serious fight involving quite a lot of stiches for both of them. I rehomed the crossbreed and thought the problem had been resolved but now she seems to be  starting on my other bitch and I am worried it will go the same way.

> The older one had a litter this year 

This is likely the issue then.

Having a litter raises a bitches status, so the previous order is disrupted.

I find with my girls that I have to get on top of the one that has whelped for a few months after until the former (or new) order is established.

This should be enough if it is only tension at the moment.

EDT after reading further.

You need to get on top of the youngster and not tolerate any one upmanship on her part.  If she is destined to take pole position that is fine, but she should not be allowed to bully.

I have in the past managed the shift of hierqachy between Granddaughter and grandmother this way, and looks like the same granddaughter will be overtaken by her granddaughter for top bitch, so am treating the same.

She said with the hormones removed they would in effect be the same all the time  rather than being different as the hormone levels change. She says seasons are a time when fights are more likely to start.
they are Border Collies. The older one had a litter this year  but I don't especially want to breed her again,  and i had planned to brteed from the younger one in a year or two to keep a puppy.
Last time they were in season there were no particular problems. Thye problems have started since.

How long after their seasons did the problems start, it can take a few months (or more in some cases) from when the seasons start to when the hormone levels are back to normal if they have a phantom?

ETA, just noticed your other post and it does sound as if your younger girl is being a bit of a bully to other dogs, is she an insecure girl? Does there seem to be any pattern to her behaviour, in that does it improve for a while and then seem to get worse?  How long ago did you rehome the cross breed?  How old are your existing dogs and do withre of them have or have had any health problems?

They are  4 and 2 years old. They had a season in may and the 4yo was mated and had 6 pups one of which I have kept.
The problems started between them about 3-4 weeks ago. The older girl does have quite extreme phantoms,  so if I have  to spay her it won't be the end of the world.

The previous problems were about this time last year when my youngster was about a year old. My crossbreed was 6 and spayed. Once she started picking on the crossbreed it was only about 2-3 weeks  until they had the  serious fight.

The behaviouist says she is stressed by the changes over the last year, such as the puppys  coming and then going, rehoming the  crossbreed and moving house.  I didn't think she was insecure but the  behavioust says she is. She is not always  a problem but i am much more watchful than i used to be since the problems last year.

> The older one had a litter this year 

This is likely the issue then.

Having a litter raises a bitches status, so the previous order is disrupted.

Not sure if this is the  case as the older one was and still is the more dominant one and she is the one who had the litter.
Can you give me  an idea on how to  help shift  the heirachy between  the 2 dogs?
I wonder if it would be better  if the younger one was dominant. She has a much stronger personality then  the older one who always seems to go  out of her way to try to keep the peace, although she will fight back when challenged.
The crossbreed was always the dominant bitch and  when she was rehomed I thought the youngster would take over as top bitch but actually the older one became top.

Exactly how old is the younger one?

This will make a huge difference, a puppy can be bossy and an Alpha bitch will ignore it, an adolescent may get bossier and perhaps push it's luck, an Alpha again may well ignore and just give a little warning growl or snarl and teeth bare. In the latter stages of adolesence and adulthood a younger bitch pushing her luck will give an Alpha no choice but to defend her position, or have it taken over by the younger, stronger or more strongly willed bitch.

So it will depend on which phase your younger bitch is at. If she is to take over as the Alpha there may well be fighting involved and if the older bitch does not wish to give up her role then the two can never live together safely. If she is just an adolescent working out her position, she will eventually take heed through body language and vocal noise from your other bitch and eventually fall in line, it can be frightening to listen to, but it is dog talk, it's how they communicate.

As there is no actual fighting at present then it is just testing the water which could go either way and best to not interfere and allow the bitches to talk to one another and sort it out their way.

I agree spaying is a usless remedy to sorting out issues like this, I would get a different behaviourist.

Unless you are very experienced it is best for you not to choose the Alpha unless you are sure which way it will go, in which case you can elevate the position by feeding, stroking and grooming the Alpha first.

For now all you can do is wait and see whether it will sort out itself or whether it is going to go to the last stage of fighting, just keep a close eye, alpha's generally play it cool and only fight if they have too, prefering vocal threats.

Hopefully it will work itself  out without any physical contact. Stay calm, give precise instructions to the dogs to cool it and strong eye contact, make sure both bitches know that you are the authority figure here.

I agree with Carrignton.  I think with the older bitch having recently had a litter she is probably just a bit less willing to let the younger have her head so the younger is pushing, the true Alpha is probably still the older, true Alpha's avoid unnecessary confrontation with underlings.

I have a 16 month old that is pushy as hell, but she has started with the lower ranking individuals,a nd the alpha in waiting here granddaughter (alpha in waiting) are keeping well out of it as it is beneath their notice.

Poor Jozi the big blusterer is getting the brunt of it, as the real next lowest had a litter at Christmas and that made her more inclined to not be pushed around by her younger half sibling.

Group dynamics is fascinating to watch, but can be stressful if they actually resort to physical damage.  Thankfully with my lot we have never got beyond a snarly pretence.

Exactly how old is the younger one?
The younger one is 2 years 3 months
The older one is 4 years and 1 month.

I agree spaying is a usless remedy to sorting out issues like this, I would get a different behaviourist.
This behaviourist is theonly one in the area who is a vet and the insurance will only pay for one that is a vet. She does have a good reputaion in the area.

Unless you are very experienced it is best for you not to choose the Alpha unless you are sure which way it will go, in which case you can elevate the position by feeding, stroking and grooming the Alpha first.

I didn't  think the older bitch was strong enough mentally to stand up to  the younger one,  but   when they have scuffles she doesn't back down to  the younger one. and of course I am really worried I will get the  same problem again with two bitches trying to kill each other which was so frightening. If  I was on my own with them I don't know  if I could split them up.

the true Alpha is probably still the older, true Alpha's avoid unnecessary confrontation with underlings.

Certainly the older one doesn't seem to want to fight, she does lots of calming signals, looking away  etc but the younger one pushes up against her and puts her head over her  back and just seems to be  trying to provoke a response. She  is particularly bad wen the older one is coming into a room that the younger  one is already in, and if the youngster is inside she waits by the door for the older one to come in out of the garden and will have a go then. i now don't let her  wait  there if Susie is coming in.

Interestingly they sometimes seem to play together and this always takes the format of the older bitch biting and pulling at the younger girls neck. The younger one then falls over on her side abd the older one nibbles ber, like she has a flea.

The older one definitely does not throw or roll the  younger one, the younger one goes over willingly and a light touch. the roles are  never reversed

Sounds like the Older true Alpha has got the upper hand to me, with the younger one having tantrums.

Certainly ensuring the youngster does not have the opportunity to test the elder too far is a god idea, so she doesn't have to go further with disciplining her.

Just wondering if you have any insight as  to what effect just spaying the Alpha bitch would have? I don't mind spaying her as she has really marked phantoms which affect her for  3 months after her season and I had been considering spaying her now she has had her season. Would it be  likely to make the situation worse?

Don't know what people would think of this, but at a recent fertility seminar the speaker was talking about the use of Suprelorin in place of surgically spaying bitches. Might be worth discussing with your vet on one or other?

(Having had nightmares with spay op and spayed coat on a bitch recently, I had been reviewing my plan to always spay bitches by around 8 years old to avoid pyo later. I found this an interesting alternative which I will definitely look in to later.)

M.

In my experience spaying mature bitches makes no difference in the hierarchical structure.

All my girls are spayed by around 7 years after their breeding life is over, and it has never affected the status quo, so I would certainly do it for other (the phantoms) reasons than your problem.

In my experience spaying mature bitches makes no difference in the hierarchical structure.


Ditto that, most breeders have their bitches spayed after 2-3 litters invariably meaning the Alpha bitch is generally spayed. She stays the Alpha spayed or not and even when lower ranking bitches have litters it makes no difference. A true Alpha always is just that.

Spaying is done purely to completley irradicate the risk and chances of pyo and mammary cancers which are two of the biggest killers of bitches.  IMO it is better to spay all none breeding bitches. Phantom pregnancies are also a very good reason for this dog to be spayed.  Some bitches can get cranky or clingy when leading up to or in a season, but it has nothing to do with heirarchy issues at all. :-)

Hiya,

Is the behaviourist Kendal Shepherd?  If so she knows her stuff and it would be worth following her advise given that she's seen the dogs and taken a full history. It could well be down to stress and hormones and nothing to do with hierarchy, especailly given that this in't something that has just started but has been going on, on and off for some time, at least with another dog in the equation.

Hi, no its not Kendal Shepherd its Sarah Heath. looking up Kendal Shepherd they both seem  to have similar qualifications etc. I have booked b oth girls in for spaying next week but  am still worrying about whether  it is the right thing to do.

If you had hoped for a litter to carry on your lines from the younger then it seems a shame as it really won't make any difference to your current problems, unless you feel the younger ones bullying character make her untypical/unsuitable to be bred from.

I think if you're unsure you should go back to Sarah Heath (who definitely knows her stuff) and talk things through with her some more.  Brainless I just don't see how with the little information you have on here you can categorically say that it won't make any difference to the problem she has been seen by someone very very experiences who has a fantastic reputation who will have taken a full history including medical, has met the dogs and will have taken into account everything.

Phantoms particularly, the effects of prolactin can have a major impact on temperamant and seasons can play a big part in increased tension and aggression in a household with solely bitches (or mixed).  Plus from the info this lady has given about the younger dog she doesn't really sound like the best breeding material at the moment.  Only the most solid of temperaments should be used for breeding especially with collies.

I'm not saying this is the right thing to do or not but I don't understand how you can say it is pointless unless you have a lot more information about this situation than is available on here, fighting isn't always about hierarchy.  For the op, like I say I would go back and have a word with the behaviourist and make sure you are as comfortable as can be before making any decisions.  Goodluck.

> Brainless I just don't see how with the little information you have on here you can categorically say that it won't make any difference to the problem

Because spaying makes no difference in female hierarchical issues, the tension is not linked to seasons only (I asked this at the start) but is general, so not a hormonal issue.

It is the same as saying castration will stop all dog to dog aggression.  It can only effect sexual aggression.

As my bitches spend more than half their lives spayed, and the spaying has never altered one iota the status quo in my five bitch pack, I think I can speak with some knowledge.

It is normal to have times of adjustment in the hierarchy as various members mature etc.  You can have no group canine or human where there are no tensions between family members, it is how they are resolved that is important.

Unfortunately many people do not like, or cannot cope with the idea of the normal conflicts, and this is one reason that many seem to prefer the infantalisation of our pets by pushing neutering as early as possible.  Of course those hoped for effects will not occur with mature individuals.

It is the younger bitch that is vying for supremacy not the one with the phantoms.  I quite agree the younger bitch may not be suitable for breeding due to the way she is overdoing the bid for power. 

I suppose it depends on whether a more dominant character is desirable in a  breed or not.  I didn't notice what the breed was. 

Certainly in my own breed they usually stop short of damaging each other if they possible can. 

Other breeds have much shorter fuses and you need to step in much sooner with an altercation.

Certainly spaying may be a good idea for these bitches, but I very seriously doubt it will make any difference to the current issues.  After all their status will be the same in relation to each other as now.

Because spaying makes no difference in female hierarchical issues, the tension is not linked to seasons only (I asked this at the start) but is general, so not a hormonal issue.

That's the thing though you don't have the relevant information to be saying that, it can take up to three/four months for a bitches hormone to get back to normal after a season (meaning that some bitches can have as little as a month or a few weeks at a time with their homone levels where they should be mid cycle), so again you have just said it's not hormonal issue when you can't possibly know that.  It really isn't a case of 3 weeks of season and then hormones are back to normal. Like I say prolactin which can take a long time to go back to normal can have a huge effect on a bitches behaviour and that is just one element.

The behaviourist/vet in question does seminars is very experinced in aggression and has written books that are used a degree level - like I say she really does know what she is talking about so I also think she can speak with some knowledge. 

Spaying wouldn't automatically alter your bitches relations any way, not unless there was a specific reason for it to do so - ie lots of stress tension and the possibility or hormones effecting things negatively, it's not the same situation and therefore not really relevant.  Home situation, breed, the individual dogs temperament, the relationship between them and also veterinary information all play a part as do other things, so like I say comparing the fact that you bitches set up hasn't changed isn't really relevant to this particular situation or at least not that I can see.

That is why someone with experience goes in to assess a situation and take a history, because what someone may seem as general is often likely not.  I would certainly be open to what Sara had to say as she has a wealth of knowledge, exprience and education behind her.

thanks Brainless and karenclynes  for the replies. I will try to get hold of Sarah and discuss it further. It is reassuring to know that she has such a good reputation. the girls are booked in for  Wednesday so i have until then   to make up my mind fully.
From what I understand the spaying is not supposed to actually cure heirachical disputes, but  Sarah said that female hormones play havoc with  female moods causing irritability  etc at certain times in the cycle similar to PMS in humans. She said spaying would even these differing moods out making one less cause of stress between the dogs.
I don't notice Mist getting particularly moody during her cycle but Susie definitely does get a  bit more grumpy before her season and then has the phantom afterwards  so I have definitely decided she will be spayed. 

> Susie definitely does get a  bit more grumpy before her season and then has the phantom afterwards  so I have definitely decided she will be spayed. 

Definitely a good idea for her, just depends how important the younger is to your breeding program, and whether you consider her temperament impaired, or just a natural rivalry.

Then I am looking at it from a breeders perspective who would find it heart breaking to end a line for no other reason, just on the off chance it might help.

No problem - I hope all goes well on Weds with the one you are definite about and that chatting with her reassures you of whcih ever way you want to go with the other.

From what I understand the spaying is not supposed to actually cure heirachical disputes, but  Sarah said that female hormones play havoc with  female moods causing irritability  etc at certain times in the cycle similar to PMS in humans. She said spaying would even these differing moods out making one less cause of stress between the dogs.

Absolutely, she wouldn't suggest that it could cure hierarchy issues because it wouldn't but there is usually a whole lot more to disputes than just hierarchy which is what it is generally put down to.  It sounds like she has some issues that need resolving before she could even be considered for breeding anyway and if she hs always been like this then that would suggest that there may be a genetic component which means you should think through very carefully if she would be a good breeding bitch.  Maybe that is something you could talk to Sara about as well and maybe it will help you decide.

Hope all goes well either way.

Thanks Brainless, My older bitch  is one I have bred  and I have a daughter from her thankfully, the younger one is unrelated but  I thought the lines might be  useful combined with mine in the future. I did buy her with the intention of having a litter and her breeder would prefer I didn't spay her   but I would rather spay if it means I can keep both girls together as I would hate to rehome her or live trying to keep them separate for the next  10 years.  Although this does spoil my long term breeding plans I  still have my pup who  hopefully will be bred from in the future and carry on  my lines.