Just got back from a quick stroll around the park and I am abit peeved to say the least.

Let my entire boy off the lead as usual as it is a very enclosed park and normally we meet lots of dogs we know. After he had been to the bathroom, had a quick sniff etc he went hurtling off across the park towards a small fawny coloured staff. I called after him as usually he has 99.9% recall and very well behaved but he would not come back. I rushed across as I could see the couple playing with the staff got quite iffy with him, trying to shoo him away. As I got hold of him, the man told me it was a bitch and she was in heat. He got quite angry with me as I couldnt control Mason around this girl, we was just going wild for her. I am, by no means, an expert on dogs but surely the little girl should not have been out and about whilst on heat? or at least be on a lead? I told the man, as politley as could, that perhaps it was not my boys fault, but you tempting him. Something I could not control. He, in a very rude way, told me to F off and mind my own buisness.

He has never experianced a bitch in heat before so I did not know how he would react, now I know I shall be more careful but surely this man was in the wrong by even bringing her to the park at such a busy time. I felt quite sorry for the girl as she looked very uncomfortable with Mason trying to be over-friendly. Im not sure he would know what to do once he got her but I could have been a different story if he did.

What some stupid owners!  Obviously haven't got the sense they were born with!

They will be swearing at an awful lot of people I would imagine!

His fault not yours. It is almost impossible to control the interest of a male around a bitch in heat. I would go so far as to say she should not have been taken to the park at all, but, at the very least on a lead. Bitches come into season twice a year entire dogs have their testicles all the time.

I've come across some bizarre attitudes recently, by some very nice people I hasten to add: in a nutshell it is something along the lines of equal rights for bitches and why should their freedoms be curtailed in favour of dogs....oh dear!

bitch owners at fault.  should never have been in a park where its obvious there are going to be offlead dogs .
I do walk mine in season but stick to pavements along roads where dogs are not offlead-and we scan horizon constantly ready to do rapid retreat if we see a dog comming on or offlead.

I had situation with my last girl, she was stately neutured 4 year old playing with her ball when some very over enthausaistic labrador came flying over and utterly ignored his furious owners demands to come back-then came over and got all shirty with ME accusing me of bringing an on heat bitch to park as HIS dog was gundog trained /super obedient wonderdog and it must be that my bitch on heat was making his disobey.  Now I know some bitches can be left with tissue after spays that mean they still are attractive to other dogs but my Jodie wasn't one of them-she just was fun and other dogs & bitches liked to play with her. Nothing i could say would convince this awlful man though that his dog just prefered playing with my dog to doing boring gun dog exersises over and over again!

You are right she should not of been out in a busy dog walking area off lead while in heat. what if there had been other males there? it could of caused a huge fight.
I know intact dogs can smell a girl in heat miles off, at the moment my boy is staying at my mums in the next road because his daughter is in season, and rather have to worry about kids leaving doors open i personally find it easier if he goes there for a holiday.
as my dad was walking out of the door the other day he slipped past my dad and ran off down the road, mum quickly called me and by the time she had he was outside mine looking for maddie, even when he was put back on lead when my dad tryed to walk off with him he had trouble getting him moving.

I once went on a local organised dog walk, there were 20 dogs altogether. One being a Husky bitch, in season! I couldn't believe it. The organisers had no problem with this.
I carried on with the walk with my intact male on lead, keeping well away from the bitch (he did not notice her). Later on someone (who is a full time dog sitter) told me to let my boy off lead, he would be fine. I was shocked that she would think this! I told her there is no way I would take the risk.

Needless to say I haven't joined that particular walking group again :(

Masonsmum, as everyone has already told you, it's not your fault.  Think about it.  Why do you think that on heat bitches are not allowed at obedience or agility shows?  I feel sorry for the poor little bitch having to live with owners like that.

morally the bitch owner.......legally....probably the dogs owner.

had situation with my last girl, she was stately neutured 4 year old playing with her ball when some very over enthausaistic labrador came flying over and utterly ignored his furious owners demands to come back-then came over and got all shirty with ME accusing me of bringing an on heat bitch to park as HIS dog was gundog trained /super obedient wonderdog and it must be that my bitch on heat was making his disobey.

I had a similar situation once where I was asked whether my bitch was on heat when their dog wouldn't leave my dog alone! Imagine their faces when I told them that my "bitch in heat" was in fact a neutered male... LOL

Thank you for your replys. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who meets silly people on a regular basis :)

As the others say his fault - but not only that but even given he was in the wrong if he just acted with a bit of politeness I'm sure nobody would have been upset and you could both have gone on your way on good terms and without spoiling a walk.  

some pet owners think once the bitch has stopped bleeding she's finished her season. Happened to us out walking , dally comes trotting over to  my entire boy who was  going ballistic ,when i asked the owner if she was in season , he said no but she was.  Well i could see she was as she was so swollen. makes my blood boil and he still takes the  bloomin thing out off lead  where everybody else goes.

surely the little girl should not have been out and about whilst on heat?
Speaking as a bitch owner I have to completely disagree with you, it's not fair to compromise a bitches excerise just because she is in season. Such confinement for 2-3weeks, as it would be for any dog, may cause destructive behaviour and other unwanted behaviours out of frustration. She has a right to be excerised just like your dog.
I do however agree with you that telling you to F off is an unreasonable reaction to the situation. If a male dog appears when my bitch is in season I find the best course of action it to pop her on the lead and put her in a sit, that way the area of concern is out of reach before telling the owner she's in season at which point they come and collect their dogs. Simple, no agro and both parties part. I tend to walk my bitch where there are no other dogs, at ridiculous times in the morning like 5am but even still we have had dogs escaping from gardens to get to her when we are streets away. In these instances though, even though my bitch may be causing a problem for these dog owners, it is the dog owner's responsibility to control their dogs as techically they are out of reasonable control. On a park where someone knows that there are regulary male dogs it is a different matter, the bitch owner is fully aware that to go there may attract unwanted attention so they don't really have a comeback.
Facts of the matter is that you have got an entire male, you know that he is going to try to mate with bitches in season ergo it is your job to stop him when he tries it, which you did. Equally it is the bitches owner's job to ensure that their bitch does not get preggers etc. Therefore I don't think any party was in the wrong, well except for them swearing at you :)

I believe as an owner of entire and spayed bitches that it's my responsibility
to keep my entire bitches 'safe' when in season.

So my method is to keep my entire bitches that are in season confined to 'barracks'
and they are exercised in their own garden by playing fetch games or playing with the others.

Yes by the end of it I might have slightly more 'hyper' natures which soon revert once they are able
to go 'walkies' in the big wide world when they've completely finished their season.

Having walked in my own village with a older puppy being pursued by an amorous large yellow lab over roads etc
with no owners in sight (I had bitches inseason at home, so puppy probably smelled 'nice' with her perfume).
It's safer for me to keep them all at home. I only get this three times a year as I have one bitch who cycles every 6-9 months
and one is a once yearly bitch.

As has been proven time and time before not all dog owners are really 'dog savvy'.

Sorry but I'd be of the mind that it's the bitches owner who was at fault.
We are dealing with animals althou domesticated still have all the natural urges to mate...
If you are walking your inseason bitch off lead in a park used by other dog owners then you are just asking for your bitch to be mated.
It doesn't matter how well trained you think your male/bitch is, they won't ignore their 'hormones'.
Ask those that haven't been vigilant at home and have had visitors that have scaled garden fences to get at a bitch inseason.
I remember as a child a Welshie that used to get into our garden (I don't know how) and sit at our door howling to get at our inseason
GSD's. He would get out of his garden to get to our bitches.
Even a bitch if she's of a mind to will get out of her own previously thought secure garden to mate.
So I don't leave my inseason bitches unattended in my garden either - even though I have 6 foot high fencing all around.

Doing it this way (and yes I only have bitches)
I've not had any 'accidents'

Having had entire bitches and entire males, I realise that it's my duty as a responsible bitch owner to make sure they're not going to be a nuisance to other dogs when they're in season. That means walking them in areas where other dogs don't go (the park is completely off-limits!) and at times when we're unlikely to meet other people also dog-walking. So it's unsociable hours and unsociable places. Free running is in the garden, and walking is on the lead at all times; it's only for three weeks or so, which is nothing. I have a dog who's confined to a cage for 6 weeks (or until he's put to sleep if he shows no sign of recovery) and not even allowed to move around the house.

> I'm sorry but I'm not compromising the psychological and physical welfare of my bitch just because dog owner's want an easy time

By allowing your in-season bitch to be free-running your are putting her in a position to get pregnant - wouldn't that compromise her physical welfare, especially if while off-lead & in-season she met my dog, I doubt it would be healthy fer her to be mated by him or to carry his pups.

>Sorry but the ' I can't control my dog because of his hormones' is a cop out. You have to control your dog in every circumstance and getting angry at bitches in season is not going to solve the problem.

Dogs are animlas, training, no matter how good is never 100% reliable in every possible situation and unless you accept that fact you are heading for trouble. Your in-season bitch may well respond to a recall first time, whenever there is an entire male about, she may do that 99 times, then on the 100th time, the entire male she sees is too atractive for her to ignore - her instincts are stonger and bam - you have a litter of puppies to compromise your bitchs health. It's not the male dogs owners that are going to have to worry about a litter of puppies and if you complained & held the male dog owner responsible, they could offer to pay for the litter to be aborted and walk away, it's still your bitch that is put at risk.

Whilst I agree with much of what you say, it is certainly not possible, in my experience, for a dog owner to have reliable recall over a male dog that is offlead in the park, after a bitch in season that is also offlead.

Leaving aside technicalities with regard to the dog being under control etc.. (a bit of a red herring in this instance) the fact is that the reproductive drive is stronger than almost any other instinct and many entire males will go through fire and flood to access an in season bitch. If the bitch is kept on the lead whilst being exercised it is at least possible to get the male under control and on a lead too, because he obviously won't leave her side, though there is still a risk that he mounts the bitch and gets in before he can be put on lead. In my view, an in season bitch should not be exercised offlead in a park, in normal park hours; the risks both to her and to the dog are too great. That is the point most people here are making.

If you have owned a number of entire males that you were able to reliably call away from in season bitches and instantly under your complete control then I take my hat off to you. You obviously know something the rest of us don't. Of course, the odd entire dog may be very submissive and not very highly sexed, some breeds are more biddable and trainable than others, but, as a general rule about dogs and dog behaviour I doubt you would ever hear any reputable trainer say that control in such circumstances could be guaranteed. If you know of such a study, please do enlighten us.

Actually I have to say I do partly agree.  My breed isn't a breed that would be content with just the garden to exercise in.   I have walked my girls, in the past, who have been in season outside of the village I live in.    I don't believe we have been a pest to anyone, we've certainly never had any loose dogs tailling us, in fact the only time we've had a nuisance dog was one that jumped over my fence into my garden whilst the girls were in season so it looks like my garden would be the unsafest place for them to be!

Yes hormones are strong & the desire to mate is strong too - I own an entire male - but you have to have good recall with your dog.  What happens if you encounter a stray sheep on your walk or something your dog will react too, what would your excuse be then?     Only last week, on one of my regular walks I encountered 4 Blackface sheep wandering amongst the bushes - had either of my dogs killed one & the farmer had seen it would he have been content with 'It's just instinct' as my reply?

If other posters really read my other posts its very clear that I walk my in season bitch at stupid 'o' clock well away from our regular haunts where there are no other dogs, a in season bitch is perfectly entitled to free run if there are no other dogs around, she's not causing any conflict at all. I don't know why this is a concept that a few posters find difficult to understand? you can judge me all you like, I really don't care if you want to make this personal, but I don't think Hijacking another posters thread is the right place to do it.

To return to the main point of the thread: in my view, the bitch should have been on a lead, though this would not have prevented the dog rushing across the park to her (a dog with 99.9% recall according to the poster, and normally very well behaved) nonethless, the situation may have been brought under control more quickly had the bitch been on a lead. In having the bitch off lead ina park the bitch owner was, I believe, more irresponsible.

The only thing I would add about this scenario is that entire dog owners do have a responsiblity to be more vigilant and watch their dog's body language carefully. Perhaps at spring and autumn, when bitches are more likely to be in season, it is worth considering having entire dogs on a long line. Lots of concentrated sniffing and mouth frothing can often be the first signs that a mad dash across the park is on the cards.

Most other instinctive drives, even prey drive, can be trained out in certain dogs- it is difficult to know how one might do the same with the reproductive drive (extreme punishment might work- and I'm sure few would want to go there). I simply don't think that you can guarantee recall in that sort of situation. As I said, dogs and dog breeds are different, but the drive to procreate is so hardwired that I believe 100% recall in all entire male dogs, once on the scent of a bitch in season, is an unrealistic goal. As I see it there are broadly three options: castrate all males; keep all entire males on lead all of the time; keep bitches on the lead when they are in season.

Dont know how the owner of a male is supposed to spot an in season bitch from a distance, can you imagine the mayhem if half a dozen males all homed in at the same time?

However, I appreciate any owner of an in season bitch walking at the ungodly hours quoted .... well done !

castrate all males; keep all entire males on lead all of the time; keep bitches on the lead when they are in season.
Or in an ideal world, have a seperate fencing in park for in season bitches, but that's very unrealistic :) I think your right with regards to the bitch being on the lead, If my in season bitch is free running and I clock a dog coming towards us, its recall and lead on, at least if the dog does try to mount the bitch you can pull her out the way or just keep her moving around so the dog can't get on. if I absolutely must take her on a place where I know dogs frequent which I have had to do only once (alarm didn't wake me up so I missed my silly o clock slot) I put her on a long red lunge rope that way she sort of gets a little run but still able for me to pull her away if anything was to happen.

I wonder whether it would be an idea to make all in season bitches wear bright red (or pink:) ) coats, that way a dog owner could walk on a park, spot the in season bitch a while off in the distance and prepare. On horses we put red ribbons on the tails of those that kick so other's can give us a wide berth.

I think your point of having dogs on a long line though in Spring/autumn is sort of compromising their welfare a bit, a high energy dog needs off lead excerise (ideally). As a bitch owner, I completely understand that male dogs are going to try their luck so there's no need to get angry when it happens, just get your bitch, wait for the dog owner to come over, treat it with good humour then part company. No agro/ no harm done to anyone.
Note: the comment about excusing control of a dog through instinctual drives was made in reference to the law. If you were to go before a court, e.g for a dog attack, it would not be a sufficent excuse to say ' He's got high aggression, it's instinct I can't control him, you were tempting him walking past our garden so its your own fault he lept over the wall and attacked you'. You know it just doesn't hold water and the law expects you, rightly or wrongly, to control your dog whatever the weather. The law is completely blind, we all know many laws to do with dogs were knee-jerk and made by people who don't understand drives, instinct etc. I understand that that example was very extreme but you can't have one rule for some, another rule for everyone else. I know it would be insanely difficult to train avoidence behaviour of an in season bitch, infact you couldn't do it without a team of helpers, in season bitches and severe punishment like the previous poster said. I don't envy you male dog owners at all, you have my sympathy :)

Indeed, you make a fair point with regard to the strict letter of the law (and, if I may echo you: it is sometimes ill conceived, ill written and an ass to boot) and, of course, we must not forget that some very aroused male dogs may not only turn on bitches who won't give them what they want, but occasionally on humans that try to interfere. So yes, a situation best avoided if possible and to be quickly brought under control if not.

The long line need not be so restricting. A goodly length of soft but tough nylon, attached to a collar clip, means one can let go and give the dog its freedom but should it need to be brought under control there is more chance of catching him!

Edited to say I quite like your pink coat idea, alas I fear dogs' noses probably work faster than our eyes and at a longer range!

I have read this thread, both sides with interest, but I still stand by what I thought at the begining.
There is not a hope in *ell that I would take an in season bitch out for a walk :(
I never did with Gemma, or Ebba, and yes they got a bit hyper, but as soon as they could go back out they were fine.
]Would rather the 3 weeks twice a year of a bitch kept at home than the problems that occur with the mis mate injection, spaying while in season and pregnant, risk of dog bites from dogs that dont know the meaning of the sentance - yes it is your natural instinct that over rides EVERYTHING else including eating but I needed to walk my bitch in season so you should stay away. ;)
To the OP, you were not in the wrong, the people with the in season bitch was.
Lea :)

just to point out that bitches in season aren't banned from agility shows - KC shows (can't speak for others) - they're not allowed to compete.  Some inconsiderate people do, though, however I usually confine them to my caravan garden and brief excursions when no one else is around to areas not many others use.  At home my girls stay in the garden or in the local fields when no one around.

There is NO way i could miss a day walking my dogs,they would be bouncing off the walls after a few days,letta lone 3 weeks Our back garden gets boring after 5 minutes.
I would find some way to walk them safely,it's not fair to limit their exercise and regular routine over something that isn't their fault :(

> surely this man was in the wrong by even bringing her to the park at such a busy time.

Of course he was in the wrong, for a start he was in possession of the facts, you were not, so could not anticipate your dogs perfectly normal reaction.

I take my in season bitches out, but only pavement walking where all dogs are supposed to be on lead (we have efficient dog warden service and no latchkey dogs around).

Anyone taking an in season bitch to places where dogs are allowed off lead are foolhardy and very irresponsible.

I don't even take my other girls to the park when I have a bitch in season as dogs are distracted by her smell on them.

my bitches always had the jab so season stopped after a few days but is expensive, now are spayed. but it isnt just entire males, i once had 10 spayed males following mine round the park whilst in season-- on lead i might add

Your dogs sound like my girl :D the most I can get away with is 2 days inside at a push, the garden gets boring very quickly for her even though i try to make it interesting by putting treat balls and hiding food in interesting places out there. I must say though before I take her out when she is in season she has bitch tablets to cover her scent, as well as bitch spray which I take with me out on walks, she gets sprayed about 3 or 4 times and I must say it has worked quite well for me. Plus I always give her backend a good wipe before we go so that hopefully the blood she drops is reduced. I would never take my bitch in season out without taking these precautions, I know it wont completely mask the scent but it reduces it which is better than nothing IMO ;)

Most dogs you meet are unlikely to be experienced studs so little precautions are useful for the controlled walks of bitches whilst in season, but never take for granted that a normally obedient bitch if allowed off lead can decide that she really wants to be mated and will totally ignore you.

Many years ago I had a BSD bitch who would go stir crazy whilst being confined so lead walks, with precautions and a rolled up newspaper (because there were occasional latchkey dogs around then before dog warden).

On one of her seasons we had a delivery chap call, she was at the peak of her season, very unsettled and whiney, desperate to be mated, flagging etc.  Whilst putting my signature on the paperwork she slipped past the postie and was off.

She returned very content and I am sure with a very smug look on her face some three hours later.  Needless to say she took a trip to the vet.

Since then I have never allowed any of my in season girls off lead, other than watched in my own garden..

Definitely the bitch owners fault, Henry jolly nearly nabbed a Staffie bitch a few years back, and he knew exactly what to do with her, it was just lucky I managed to grab him before he'd done more than get his front feet across her!! Stupid owners had her offlead and didn't have a clue it was a bad idea!

being an owner of entire bitchs and dogs i think it is the responsibility of both owners.

> i think it is the responsibility of both owners

but how can the males owner be responsible when they can have no idea until too late that the bitch is in season?

It is much easier to preempt a behaviour than to interrupt one, especially one so hard wired.

Why would any bitch owner want to risk it I fail to understand, I wouldn't rely on a males owners abilities to control their dog with such extreme provocation.

I could be faced with several males trying to get to my girl and having a fight to boot.

I wonder how many of those who feel it is OK to take ther in season bitches to off lead dog walkign areas have dealt with highly sexed/expereinced stud dogs, and a very willing bitch?

Definitley the responsibility of the bitches owners - as Brainless says, how are people to know that someone elses dog is in season without being told and there is no way an entire male (even with excellent recall) would leave an in season bitch alone!

> I wonder how many of those who feel it is OK to take ther in season bitches to off lead dog walkign areas have dealt with highly sexed/expereinced stud dogs, and a very willing bitch?

Me!

when my girls are in season and generally they synchronise, for example two are in season at the moment, i do take them to the field and let them off, admittedly this is at 6 in the morning this is generally because where i live the average dog is a staffy or pitx owned by idiots so for a more peaceful walk we will go early so we dont see anyone. if i see another dog coming on to the field i dont now if that dog is male or female so regardless mine get put on a lead. BUT i would hope the other owner would be able to recognise that mine had been put on leads or be able to catch their dog. so thats how i think BOTH are responsible. that does not mean however i think its a good idea to take in season bitches to well known off lead excersise areas (which i think the op did) i take mine for off lead socialisation at only a few places. But the girls still need to excersise whilst they are in season so i do let them off-----with caution. and i would expect any other dog owners to be equally cautious.

My bitch used to be a harlot before she had to be spayed last year for medical reasons, every season she would make every attempt to escape from the garden and from her lead but at the same time she had so much energy she had to be walked, so it was very early morning walks for her and she had to be on a harness because otherwise she would back out of her collar and run off to the next street where an entire GSD lived. I always used to do the early walking back then more for my convenience because I didn't want to be mobbed rather than out of consideration for male dog owners because until I came to own an entire male I really didn't appreciate how uncontrollable they could become when they encounter an in season bitch.
A few months ago I was out walking my boy when a dog in season came racing down the path, owner in hot pursuit, she'd slipped her collar and came straight for my dog, luckily I had Vic on his lead but even then he nearly pulled free from me in his desperation before the man caught his dog. I had to leave the park then because Vic became a lunging, screaming monster, foaming at the mouth. I don't know who was more embarrassed, the man for letting his girl escape or me for having absolutely no control over my dog whatsoever.
My gran always used to say that when keeping dogs you have to have two types of sense, common sense and a sense of humour :)

What an interesting thread. I must say I agree with Brainless in saying that it is not possible to judge a bitch in heat from a distance, especially one off the lead.
I also put Mason on a lead I see another dog owner doing so as he is very submissive which I have found causes other dogs to bully him abit. Its just easier to be safe than sorry.

I do understand that bitches in heat need and deserve the same exercise as usual but I feel, after experiencing it first hand, that the original owner of the bitch in question showed no common sense or regard for his dogs safety by letting her play freely in an open park at 4pm.

Having never owned a dog before, I am greatful for being blessed with one that is not as highly sexed and dominant as others I have heard of. Since this has happened I have spoken to people I know around my area and have heard some horror stories of entire males and what they have done to get a bitch :-o

There are always two sides to every story, and every discussion has more than one point of view otherwise it would be pretty boring.

>My gran always used to say that when keeping dogs you have to have two types of sense, common sense and a sense of humour

How very true Pookin :)

> My gran always used to say that when keeping dogs you have to have two types of sense, common sense and a sense of humour :-)

Love it :)  Rather necessary for life in general really !!

I've always kept entire males and females and so can see both sides of the coin.

My opinion is that in my having made the decision to keep entire bitches it is solely my responsibility to ensure that they are not the cause of other dogs being endangered by running off in pursuit of their most basic instinct or risking my girls having an accidental mating.

Having entire males, including those used at stud, it is my greatest dread that they scent an in season bitch from a lengthy distance but fortunately in around 20 years it has only happened twice - both with the same bitch a couple of years apart.

Keeping entire bitches in good physical and mental health during seasons is certainly not impossible but requires determination to get up early or walk out late and, during the most dangerous period keep them confined to home quarters with play in the garden.  I've never yet had a bitch lose condition or show distress during seasons and this in a high energy breed.

Like every other aspect of dog ownership, we have a duty of care to our animals and also one of responsibility towards others.
regards, Teri