Like others I am getting fed up with the intimation that if we don't use "gently gently hands off "approaches to handling, teaching and training dogs we are considered cruel and harsh.

Most of us will correct our dogs and that is it, over and done with. I do not consider many of these so called softly aproaches kind at all - in some cases they take so long or don't work at all and the dog is pts because nothing is working whereas a short sharp shock administered with the correct timing could stop a problem almost immediately.

How many "kind and gentle" type trainers or behaviourists have lived with and worked with a variety of different types of dog, I feel if they had then their attitudes would be somewhat different. Many large breed adolecents won't take a scrap of notice of food or luring - a short sharp shock however, frequently gets though to them. I understand it is the same with many of the terrier breeds - small does not automatically equate to delicate.

The behaviourial side says "Softly, Softly Catchee Lots of Moneeee" (yes I admit to being very cynical about some of the newer behaviourists who only want to use gentle methods and drag the experience out as long as possible) When the behavioural movement first got going it was one consultation with maybe telephone back up and the client had to do some WORK! From what I can see these days it is almost like traning classes wth the client going back again and again and buying more and more items, booklets, training aids, treats - some people build up quite a collection as they try different behaviourists.

I do not see why puppy owners need behaviourists - puppies are puppies and will nip, growl, wee and mess where ever suits them - this is normal puppy behaviour. If the owners are firm and consistent most grow out of it. By firm I mean saying "NO!" or "ENOUGH!" and meaning it - too many say "no, don't bite it hurts etc etc" which means nothing to a pup. If a pup does not stop nipping then by all means grab its muzzle from above and repeat "NO!". Puppies are babies and need to be taught what is right and wrong in this human world - it is not easy for them, they are babies their memories are short and they need frequent reminders but as they grow so does their attention span and memory and these things will sink in. What they do need is training classes (mostly so the owners will learn how to teach their dogs and the dogs learn to behave in a group situation), to be consistent in their commands and ways.

How many people say, when a dog is six months old that it is trained - when you ask further it comes sometimes, sits or lies down occasionally when asked and might sit and stay for around 10 seconds before it wanders off (without being released by owner). I consider you can say a dog has basic training when it will come (nearly) every time, it will sit and down within a second of being told, it will stay in one position till released. I consider my dogs are starting to become well mannered when they don't - beg for food, sit on the furniture, bite me, get in my way at doorways etc etc etc.

How many "kind and gentle" type trainers or behaviourists have attended an obedience competition or training classes - some of the methods used with Collies and GSD's I would not even contemplate using with mine - they would not suit them at all. But they do suit these very highly trained dogs who have such an excellent rapport with their owners - a quick physical correction and the dog is all attention, tail up and wagging and ready to work - the dogs very obviously don't consider they have been cruelly treated and you can see the mutual respect between dog and owner.

These "kind and gentle" methods have also been advocated for children for some time now - when I was a child or teenager I would not have dreamed of swearing or answering my parents back - these days it seems the norm for even three year olds to swear ( and know they are doing wrong) and hit out at adults and have no respect whatsoever for them but it is just accepted - or is it?

Christine
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Hear Hear Christine, you have put that into words far better than I ever could.

Couldn't agree with you more and what concerns me is that are we on a slippery slope with more and more pet owners listening to behaviourists and softly softly approaches, and then more and more pet dogs ending up being pts.

Jayne

Jayne

You suggest that more dogs are being pts because of these apporoaches you so dislike - what statistics do you have to support this?

Why do reputable dog rescues use behaviourists in rehab, and successfuly rehome a huge amount of dogs?

It can't possibly be because their methods dont work LOL!!!!!

Lindsay

Lindsay I am not into statistics, just from my personal observations of dogs and their owners and the problems that they have and the results.

I am not prepared to get into a personal argument with you I was just stating that I totally agree with the remarks that Christine made in her posting.

If you remember I did not get involved in the arguments in the last thread, because I am afraid I don't have the time to do that. You will note from any of my previous postings that I only post on here when I feel I can personally help someone with their problems, usually from my own experiences or from others experiences that I have observed. I have never stated that I know about all breeds and their temperaments, but I am always willing to learn from others experience of different breeds.

These are my own personal feelings about the training of dogs and how I have had success in the past and for the record I have never had problems with my sort of training whether it is with my own dogs, who all adore me by the way, or puppies that I have sold with these instructions. Plus I run a Puppy Playgroup and in the past few months have had a number of puppies pass their Kennel Club Good Citizens Foundation courses and all of them are now going on to take their Bronze Tests all at under 12 months old.

Regards

Jayne

100% with you Christine
:D

Agree.
Ted

oh yes!!!!!! agree fully :)

Spot on !!

Sam

I agree 100% Christine.

me too I agree ...I wouldnt handle my dogs with softly softly I adore them but Im the boss at all times

My whole problem is not with the behaviorist or the methods .
it is for the time it takes in an emergency situation.
I have no malice towards Lynsey at all . I find her to be a nice person.
I only wished for the sake of discussion to point out to others looking in and
finding themselves in a dangerous situation with a teenage dog .
That a little disciplining will sort it and no need to panic and have the dog PTS.
That is my main worry for the giant breeds . how play can be dangerous and have them killed for it.
Too many have been PTS for harmless adolescent carry on.
.
Mari

I couldn't give a **** what others here think of my training methods!
I know my dogs, the way I train them and others, and the standards that I achieve. I'm happy with that :)
People are going to think what they like anyway Christine. Why feel the need to justify yourself? Their approval is overrated

Great posting, I totally agree.

I agree as well. The mother of the pup does'nt treat them softly softly. The behaviour of my dogs speaks for itself.

its not christine thats like a long playing record :rolleyes:

i meant as in waiting for the start of the clicker debate and the softly softly person again :(

:)

Ah now is'nt that a bit bitchy and personal, Dizzy ????? Shame on you!! Sorry but your comment is nasty and unnecessary. So look at yourself long and hard before bitching at others.

As for long playing records - who started all this up again? It wasn't me, that's for sure.

Lindsay

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

well written, have been reading all threads on this subject, and agree with you,sorry to the behaviourists out there i think at times more harm is done than good, we see all these t.v programmes regarding problem dogs, we don't see long term results only a month or so down the line that is a very short time to say wether it is a total sucsess or not and i am sure they only pick the ones that are going to be adead cert for the t.v, everything in life revolves around making a buck.
i realy felt for a poster on another thread re her bull dog, having to make a decision on having it pts because of behaviour problems. what is quality of life, alive or living life to the full, a dog that can end up being chained in a garden for the rest of it's life with the basic food and water,not a problem as don't have to deal with it just feed it, thats alive, living being part of the family, living with the family no fear of friends or relies coming as dog loves everyone, does'nt have to be shut in another room or garden for hours on end because it has problems.what is quality of life ?????? regards tina

I agree whole heartedly with Not using the Softly method. I use this standard proceedure when training. If they do something wrong... let all hell break loose for 2 seconds. [for example look harshly at them and say things to scold, I am not talking about beetings here, OK. (just to clarify).] Then after the two seconds pretend nothing happened! I use this with my dogs, horses and the cattle. After all consider that they probably have the mind comparable to a two or three year old child. And I am sorry, but if we all walked around going... no honey, baby, dont do that it isnt nice (in sugar sweet voice) what would our kids be like!!! Anyway, that is just my opinion and it works for me.
QT

I know nothing about dogs.. (before I get picked on)..and so have found this site fab over the year that I have visited, though not been a member till a little later.I have found everyones views to be most educational.

I would just like to say how sad I found the last debate ( bt one, which I was unable to reply too as it was frozen??? not sure as to why?).I read the posts and for the life of me could not see why everyone was ganging up on one person.:(
I found no offence in her posts..just someone who believed there is different ways to train and found her self been backed into a corner.
Very confused:(

I dont really like to believe there was a 'ganging up' I too have nothing against anyone on here we all I hope try to offer our help due to our own experience Im sure no one want to hurt anyone at all I would rather say nothing than upset anyone.
The biggest worry is that people find the wrong way of dealing with a dog and it has disasterous results ending with a dog being put to sleep or put in rescue.
The secret is to offer your advice and then allow others to offer theirs and then let the people decide wether to take the advice or not.

Mattie,

Sadlu there was a ganging up - as John said, pullling the wings off flies???

I tried in the BT aggressive post to just give my thoughts, but then evryone started on at me so now i am giving up, chased away.

As i said to those who just kept on and on at me, it is sadly a hollow victory for them :(

Much easier for them now though!!!

They can say what they like, no fear of me poppingup and saying, "Er, excuse me but in my opinion...." LOL

Lindsay

Christine ...I use " soft and gentle" with my 3 kids and i can honestly say that they dont swear, fight back or cause us anymore problems than my sil`s kids(who do get a spank every now and again):)

I think regular users of this Site already know that I train with authority and praise - no treats, no gimmicks! Just myself and the dog, building a bond and understanding between us.

I feel it is also cruel to ignore, nag, or isolate a dog, in the name of using a 'gentle approach'. A dog is not going to connect with any misdeamnour and being ignored, nagged or isolated. He is going to be confused! A person would - a dog would not, and thereby lies part of the problem, some people expect a dog to have human emotions, thoughts, feelings and responses!

Even 'distracting' from unwanted behaviour is non productive, i.e. the ACTUAL unwanted behaviour still exists and does not get dealt with, the 'distraction' can sometimes be seen as a 'reward', and the Owner (who is supposedly the Pack Leader) demonstrates that he/she is unable to deal with the problem instantly and directly.

Visit a few 'Obedience Shows' and just watch how many dogs can 'perform' in the Ring, yet when they are finished will PULL on their leads, bark, jump up at Owner, and generally act in a hooligan manner. These dogs also need to be tethered, in order to remain in one place. Our dogs not only behave in a ring, but even more importantly - out of the Ring!

Dogs are sometimes referred to has becoming more dominant in their unwanted behaviour, however, dogs have NOT become more dominant, dogs are dogs and always have been, it is the Owners who have now become LESS dominant themselves! ('Dominant' does not mean to bully. It is to control and have the most influence).

A dog is a Pack animal, and consequently needs a Leader, someone to respect. These dogs will be happy and relaxed, because they have someone who they can rely on.

Owners will 'ask' a dog to do something, (and maybe 'grateful' or even 'surprised' when he does). I will 'command' my dogs to do something, (and will 'expect' them to comply). Remember, if you ASK you give your dog a choice!

Consistency too is paramount, if you allow a sloppy attitude or a dog to ignore something you say, then 'expect' compliance with something else, why be surprised that the dog does not respond accordingly. Why should he, you have proved that you do not always mean what you say anyway!

Unfortunately, a great number of Training Clubs train in the manner of softly, softly, never say 'No' (and certainly not in a way that you mean it)! etc. I can only suggest to visit as many Clubs as possible and compare.

(I could go on, but I would end up writing a book)!!!

Denise

Christine

I do agree with you in general. When TH was a pup, she did have to be taught "no" means "no".

But . . . Not every breed suits this treatment. Clumbers don't take well to harsh treatment and things that I do to Stinky I wouldn't dream of doing to the TH now she's an adult. I find that seperation works much better as a punishment than anything else.

Horses for courses as they say.

I do think that the softly softly approach is (in general and not getting at those that bring their kids up this way ;) ) ruining a generation of kids, who don't see why they should respect authority.

OMG. I'm turning into my mother

9th

p.s. I once mortified a woman I was out riding with. The horse was playing up and I said "what I wouldn't give for half an hour in the indoor school with this horse and a big whip". I honestly think if she'd had a mobile phone with her she'd have reported me to the RSPCA there and then :D

9th
LMAO, I know a few people like that with their horses and OMG what little snots they are (the horses). One lady thought I was cruel... till her horse reared and flipped over on her. Now shes got a riding crop with her everywhere... Live and Learn! ;)

Hmm yes indeedy, a riding crop everywhere - oh dear, whose side are you on???!!

I'm laughing MY * off here!!! Duh.

LIndsay

Brilliant Christine. Well said!!!

What is this softly softly approach? Is this a new term for something?

Yes, i WAS ganged up on yesterday and it was shameful - no matter what people think, personal attacks are NOT on.

Suffice it to say I got a surprisingly large number of private mails from very supportive people who felt i had been treated inexcusably. People who feel they dare not post on here - now what does that say about the board?

I will repeat that large, aggressive dogs plus those with all sorts of problems are treated by behaviourists at BAttersea, NCDL in their rehab. So presumably these very expeirienced people know nothing, and are achieving nothing using motivational techmiques? yes they do use a voice, and may use Masterplus, it is not all giving hot dogs and choc drops, as so many of the extremelly ill-informed on here seem to think :(

Hallo - IS ANYBODY OUT THERE? DID ANYBODY READ THAT LAST PARAGRAPH?????

Dog trainers who use +'ve methods are not behaviourists (necessarliy) I have seen this mistake so many times it is getting a bit boring!!!

I know people who have dealt with dogs such as aggro pit bulls =- recommended pts, but the family wanted to have a go so they did, and were successful. ?And Aggro BSdGSD crosses who now play happily with other dogs, etc. A Bulllmastiff who was dog aggro was "cured" by Caroline who used to post on here, but gave up on Champdogs after a pasting because she dared to admit she used a crate!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am very sad that so many people are jumping on the bandwagon and assuming that I am criticising them personally - I have said before and i will say it again, I am not personal.

If you all want to just shut me up and stop me discussing my method, then at least have the honesty to say you want to chase me off the board- because let's face it, that is what seems to be happening. :(.

For the record again, all the B's I know charge once and give backup for many months if necessary in a difficult case. what is wrong with maybe selling a harness, Aboistop or whatever? Often theywill lend free of charge anyway.

I am frequently amazed that people will spend hundreds of pounds on holidays, Xmas, and buy in to the comsumer lifestyle, yet BEGRUDGE money to help the dog.

As for kids - did no-one see the documentry on "to smack or not to smack"? Presumably not. It just upholds the view that so long as kids get discipine, smacks are not needed.

To be honest Champdogs is getting so cliquey and so vitriolic I am getting to the state where I feel i cant give any more anyway. It will be a bit of a hollow victory for some of you if I go though.

At least I can think for myself and am not a "sheeple" LOL. And i don't need a little gang of friends to stick to my beliefs. I am so proud of myself :D :D :D

Probably won't bother posting on this thread again; it is WAY too cliquey. So if I don't reply, it is not because I cant - but because i DO HAVE A LIFE!!!!!

NOw I suppose someone will have a go, take umbrage, nag, or whatever. Yawn .......

LIndsay

Lindsay,
I am really sorry that you felt 'ganged' up on the other day by my posting. Even though I was told off by Melody and you that I was "abusing" you, I find it difficult to figure out how exactly I was doing so. Still don't quite understand it. Perhaps it's a cultural gap?

I simply don't comprehend how letting you know that I find your "worries" rather obsessive as being insulting to you. In American speech, it's just not considered a fault, just honesty. I don't know. I say it to people that I know when they are getting obsessed about a single subject and failing to maintain a good perspective. :)

What I really don't like about your postings is your constant put down towards those who have worked for decades training/raising their dogs. You say they are WRONG to do this. If you continue to lump our various methods of training with actual physical abuse, then you are greatly exagerating the situations.

You are beating up on those of us who do not agree with you. That is what I don't like. To consider that occasionally scruffing a large puppy to be the same as beating a dog is incorrect. You seem to like mentioning terrible and cruel situations as examples of what those on the board do do. Because of your opinions, I still have the right to believe that you're a little obsessive and not being realistic to who on this board actually are. I'm not insulting you, just disagreeing with your methods of persuation. We all love our dogs and care deeply. It's what I said before and what I stand by now. There seems to be little trust on your part that understands our pov.

I really don't understand how you can not go back and reread your postings to see how you continually belittle those on here. Sure, you don't name names, but you constantly say how much better YOUR methods are and that enlightened people would gladly join with you to do it YOUR way. Then when someone posts trying to say no, I'm not abusive and I don't like what you are saying.... you become upset and feel ganged upon....even when it's only one person disagreeing with you. Hmmm.
jmho take it as you will.
Sara

Sarah

Sorry, but I have decided that i am spending too much time on here and because it seems various people want me off, I am willingly leaving. I am sorry because i honestly felt I gave a lot to Champdogs, but thanks to all this being started up again, plus nasty comments by Dizzy, here is one person holding up her hand - I have had enough :(

I tried to reply a quickie personally but found no mail address, so .....

Don't worru about the OCD LOL - it's water under the bridge, let's just let it lie :)

Sara, if you look back over say, yesterdays posting, (in order is best), all that has happened is that I have replied as people have posted to ME. In each post after the first few, people are rude and personla to me, I just defend myself :) I wanted to make a highly relevant point (about the weeing pup in a past post), reply as courteously as possible to Jayne, and then make a suggesti0n to the original poster.

Sadly then all hell was let loose. I had to keep coming back because of needing to reply and defend my chosen method, that is all. i was very courteous to everyone who was to me, and my posts were wordedwith care.

I don't say people are WRONG to do what they have in a PERSONAL sense. I may disagree with a METHOD, as they have a perfect right to disagree with mine. But if we cant do this then are we all supposed to just agree on Champdogs?

I freely admit i have loads still to learn, but give what I can, when I can. And if I say anu more i will just be repeaintg what i have said in other posts :)

Philippa said something taht sums it all up in a way: words to the effect of, "people dont like it that you can't agree dogs need differnt methods". Someting like that.

There's the rub, y'see - why SHOULD i HAVE to agree, to fit in? I do agree dogs need different methods, but i have already explained that aeons ago - not that anyone noticed!!!

Ah well........

Lindsay

lindsey, get a grip, -i wasnt nasty or bitchy, and why would you assume i meant you anyhow ???? its not only you that belives in clicker-praise-softly softly methods and think a good scruff will have a lasting effect on the poor things!!!
so as far as i can see its you throwing the name calling around, where did i call you or anyone else anything ???

Lindsey,
Please dont let people put you off posting on here.You have as much right as everyone on here to post your thoughts and feelings.I have re read and re read the debate that went on yesterday and cannot see why certain people got so angry.
I have found your posts in the past very good.:)
I cant for the life of me, understand why this board of late..if not shouting down at guests, has to then turning on its members !
Considering we are all supposed to be animal lovers...its a shame we cant be kind to our own
Chrissy

HI Chrissy

Thanks for the on-board support, you are a brave soul and obviously not a "sheeple" LOL!!!

I sadly am leaving Champdogs due to being hassled so much, but seeing as i have spent 2 hours plus just answering all this stuff, (due to being a very slow typist) I will have so much more time when I leave which can only be good :)

I will continue to help dogs and owners wherever i can, which is all i ever wanted todo anyway.

Take care

Best wishes
LIndsay

Wise words Christine :D
You are spot on with your observations.
Nicky

100% behind you Christine.

Only in your opinion, Nicky.

Lindsay

you're unbelievable!!! who elses opinion would you expect nicky to give!!! if you go back over the thread im sure youd find you werent as sweet as you suggest youve been!!!
as for beiong frightened to pass opinions and others not being sheep-----i assume the non sheep are the ones that agree with you -[cos of course you're right]
well im not a sheep ,never have been,i have very strong veiws and if i own A dog that needs putting in its place it would be! very swiftly and be left in no doubt that it was wrong!!! although owning dogs as long as i have now these never become an issue,

i cant believe there are others agreeing with you privatley yet frightened to say so on the board, SHAME ON THEM!
im sure under certain situations your methods are valuable but please dont teach your mother how to suck eggs!

Hi Diz, We only have her word that she has received support e mails, I cant believe that any of our regulars would be that cowardly!!!!