I take Isla my sheltie (16 months) to obedience classes which I think she enjoys.  She is good with her heelwork and sits, downs, stays etc but she is very naughty with the recall.  She is one of the  youngest in the class but at home we practise and she is 100%.  Now at training quite often I put her in "sit", tell her to stay  and walk off.  When I face her and call "Isla come" sometimes she starts off well  but then  runs off elsewhere rather than to me, sometimes she will come and sit.  Last night though when I called her she just sat there looking daft I have to say and going nowhere.  I am sure she knows full well what I want - so why doesn't she do it?  She is very quick and bright generally speaking.  The trainer says she is being a minx and at 16 months is a "rebellious teenager"  (her words).  Also says I am too soft with her but I feel I am normal.  I have had had her from a pup and I have three other dogs (rescues) and I think maybe she is a bit spoilt.  the ony thing about the recall she loves is when I call her and throw the lead betwen my legs - then she comes running at 100 miles an  hour, will dash through my legs, retrieve the lead and bring it back.

In my particular class no treats are used - once or twice I have tried it with a treat and she is there like a shot.

Has anyone else had probs with the recall?

Thanks

Snowflake

Sorry - can I ask why no treats?  She is still young so at this stage to ensure 100% recall I would be treating every time with a high value reward and once reliable then varying the type of reward/treat.  In fact my dogs age 5, 4 and 2 still get a treat for recalls - its the one thing where they come back to me and know they will get a treat.

When they go through this 'testing' period its also a good idea to go back a stage in the training so again back to high value rewards?

Where else to do you practice recall - perhaps a few more locations would be a good idea to practice.

Also edited to add - sounds like the lead game would be good to use? if she likes that game alot?

Sounds like you have a perfect recall to me (if you use the lead as a treat).
Is that allowed at your training class - if so use it!
I am a bit surprised food treats aren't allowed - it is normal to reinforce the desired behaviour with positive association, eg food or game. Without this what's in it for the dog?

I honestly would never use a class that did not allow treats. It's like my trainer always says -would you work for no pay? :)

> In my particular class no treats are used - once or twice I have tried it with a treat and she is there like a shot

Is that your answer then?  If she's very bright she'll have sussed there is no reward for coming back in class. 

I've always trained recall with treats.  When first training anything I've used high value treats as a lure, til they understand what I'm asking for.  Once that's been achieved I'll use them as a reward (with praise, and play too as required).  When I have good and consistent behaviours I'll reduce the amount of treats and reward at random.  I still always use treats for recall and never walk without something in my pocket.

In our class, when we were being tested we weren't to use treats during the exercise, but we could reward once the exercise had finished.  Do you use a clicker for training?  This is quite good as you are able to 'mark' the desired behaviour then you can offer the reward after a short delay.  You'll need to build up to this delay though and you must always give the treat once you have clicked.

Other things that might help are the tone of voice (high and playful) and bending down when you call her, with open arms.  :)

> I honestly would never use a class that did not allow treats. It's like my trainer always says -would you work for no pay?

That's a great way of putting it Marianne!!

I've been struggling with recall for my Cavalier girl as she has an extremely high prey drive, but she has responded so well to recall training with treats that I can just about trust her off lead now. She knows though if I've not got treats - treats are more interesting than birds, but birds are more interesting than no treats :-)

The trainer at our class is very good, has a marvellous highly trained  border collie. Believes in rewarding with play and fuss.  She says firmly no treats though as I am sure I wouldn't have a problem if I could use them as Madam is very greedy.

I enjoy it there and have got to know people so don't want to change.  I always take treats in my pocket when out exercising the dogs and it works (like a treat!).  Have never had a problem with Isla's recall when out in the field.

Maybe if I practise recall with a treat at home she will automatically think I have got on at the class (knowing Isla she would soon suss that one out).  The trainer also suggested as one of you did, to do recall in various locations, not just the garden.

Snowflake

> The trainer also suggested as one of you did, to do recall in various locations, not just the garden

...which sounds like a great idea - I practise with Pixie in different places. I find she's probably better in strange places to be honest as she's quite clingy and likes to know where her Mummy is! :-)

i cant understand why no treats either.i mean,you can always wean them off slowly.ive always thought"if it works,use it"!bribery and corruption,so what,if it works!

Just because a border collie will work for non-food treats it doesn't mean that all dogs will.  I think your trainer really should accept that.  I have 2 small dogs, both of the same breed, but they are as different as chalk and cheese.  One is a real gannet and will do ANYTHING for food; the other has no interest in food whatsoever (not even his dinner - or my dinner!) but he loves his ball.  I don't get a lot of opportunity for formal training here but when I did go I used whatever was best for the individual dog regardless of what the trainer might have wanted.

Although I use treats now and advocate them to others, when I used to train for competition , I only ever used my lead, a tug-a-ball or praise as the reward. It sounds to me that you trainer is like the one I used to train under and as you are not allowed to use food in the obedience ring, she ecouraged us to use our lead to play tug games with, as you do take this into the ring. Remember that the recall is be broken down into a wait, the actual run in, then the present (sit in front) and finally the return to heel. Each element should be taught seperately. If Isla is monkeying around with the run in, then practice that for success, ie by thowing her lead between your legs. Initially I wouldn't worry about putting the pieces together, I would be aiming for 100% consistency, before I would even attempt to put the present in. You will still be practicing the present as a seperate exercise so once you have Isla happily responding in class situations, then you can try and put the elements together. If you explain to your trainer that you want to build on the recall element using your lead as a reward and means of getting a Isla consistently responding to your recall command, I would be surprised if she had an objection. If she did then I think I would question her training methods.
Hope this is clear as I do tend to ramble on.

Hi Goldiemad

You are exactly right. Our trainer always uses the lead as a reward - playing with lead etc.  In the case of Isla, being a sheltie and a working dog. she loves it.  As I said though in recall . unless I am throwing the lead through my legs she seems to think "I don't think so - boring!!". This weekend I have been practising the recall when out in various fields and without treats or the lead, she was spot on - although he doesn't always present in a sit as close as she should , but she is only a babe.  I guess I will just have to peg away.  As I have 3 other dogs training is quite difficult and has to be undertaken  on a one to one basis.

Isla is definitely talented.  She is the smallest.  fastest and youngest in our class of perhaps six or seven dogs.  The others are quite big (labs. retriever/ GSD types).  When doing recall they will lumber up bless them and go through legs or sit, whereas often Isla will set off at 100 miles mph only to veer off if she spots something else more interesting!! 

We will keep at it - bound to improve hopefully!
Snowflake