Thought I'd do a separate topic to the rehoming due to pregnancy one. I am a breeder, about to have my first litter in 3 yrs so a tad infrequent admittedly but breeder all the same and I DO let some of the oldies go from time to time.  I know disgraceful behaviour I can't possibly love my dogs they're just a commodity, been a member here a very long time so know the responses I'm likely to get here lol.

My reason for rehoming oldies may come as a surprise to some but not to others, basically as our breed is long lived ie 16 plus in many cases and is well known and understood by those in the 70 plus age group ie war survivors.  Many many times we get calls from this age group absolutely heartbroken after the death of their old friend at 16 --19 do we have anything in rescue they can have but nothing too young?  Have to admit we don't often have rescues, at best we might be able to locate a juvie the breeders have run on and would be willing to let go but rarely the 8yr plus age group.

Am I soft touch?  Hell yes if they're close enough we ask them round for a cuddle with some of our guys so we can share photo's, experiences and they get their schippy cuddles, theres lots of laughter and tears as we all reminise about the good times and bad with this wonderful breed.  This is where I have the problem, after a few visits I just can't cope with their pain any more. 90% of the time one of the oldies has actually latched onto them being overjoyed when they come to visit and as flat as can be when they leave without them SOOOOOO yes we do let some of our oldies leave home with their choice of new owners.

At the moment we have a lady in her 70's who's had knee replacement surgery with a 15 yr old who comes to stay for her holidays, this dog has Cushings a serious liver problem but is as happy as larry, both we and her owner know time is running out but once a mth we do an hrs drive to collect this dog take her to the vets and return home.  Her owner is very worried about losing her but prepared for that day and has asked if we would allow her to have another oldie?  Hell yes, thankfully we've just had a 9 yr old bitch come back after her owners unexpected death so she'll stay here with me and my 9 yr old champ keeping him in his place until she's needed elsewhere.  Just keep you're fingers xed there isn't another potential home around the corner I couldn't cope lol.

I'm going to a breeder tomorrow to chip her puppies. She often lets older dogs/bitches go(including champions that have never been bred from)to homes she always has waiting for her dogs, she knows the new owners will get a nicely trained dog/bitch that will enjoy being in a smaller group of dogs(even a sole dog)because they will get much more one to one quality time & will be loved for just being them.

I've met some of these dogs & what a lovely change to see sensible well behaved healthy dogs of this breed instead of pet bred "hooligans"

Now those are good reasons, and that is the commonest scenario with older established breeders in my numerically small breed.

A breeder may have sold the person several generations of their or other breeders  breeding or known them through many years, and being older themselves and still wishing to take an active part in the breeding direction of the breed allow these friends of the breed to have their older dogs be they retired champions brood/studs etc.

If it is for the dogs and the new owners mutual benefit, then it is ideal.

I am rather younger than many breeders in my breed and have been asked on occasions for one of mien, but have been unable to bring myself to let one go, but have no problem with others being more pragmatic, looking forward.

On a slightly different slant, when I got together with my hubby last year and he was staying her for days at a time (he lived 40 miles away) his 10 year old Russell x Beagle was being cared for by a friend whose young teenage daughter was besotted with him, even though they had a little poodle cross and a cat of their own.

Now I would have been more than happy for him to come and live with my gang, eh was neutered so not an issue, and with mien all being girls I didn't see a problem.

My other half decided that he had been used to much more one to one attention, and seeing the bond that had formed between him and the young lass, who was very much a country innocent, and not the overly sophisticated/worldly kind of teen decided to let her keep him.

With luck he will be with her up until she goes to University, broke his heart but best all round.

I don't see a problem with that, if it is beneficial to all concerned and the dog, which it seems to be. It's nice that older people can have another well trained dog to keep them company. Most couldn't cope with a puppy or younger dog or even a rescue of unknown history with training issues. My nan lost her last dog at 14 years of age and never did get another because she just couldn't cope and had limited mobility for even the most basics of care, but I'm sure she would have loved the company if she could have!

As you say, the dog "laches" on to certain people :-)  I see no problem if the dog itself has made the choice, animals know who needs love better than we do :-)

My father-in-law is 80. He lost his wife last year after 60 years of marriage and after being her carer for the last 22 years. As you can imagine he was lost, no one to care for and living on his own.

He suddenly announced that he was thinking of getting a dog.

We were so lucky that one of my good friends was prepared to let him have her precious oldie on permanant loan. It has been a match made in heaven!! The arrangement works for both of them, Jack adores being an only dog and has my father-in-law wrapped round his paw! We also know that if/when the time comes that he cannot care for Jack a loving home is there to take him back.

From what you describe Schip your re-homing these already homeless dogs or finding them from other breeders who for various reasons are looking to place them. So your acting as a kind of rescue for your breed? So in that respect there is no problem, of course your finding good homes for these dogs. :-)

Now, I know and I'm sure we all do, that when people come to us for pups they generally fall in love with our bitches, studs other dogs at the same time, I'm sure we have all heard countless times "can I have your bitch/stud too. :-D" Of course the answer is a very polite no, and if that is a scenario you are speaking of that people turn up and fall for your own raised oldies, so you think 'ok you can have him/her?' that I don't understand, sorry.  How can anyone give up their dog because someone likes it and you feel sorry for them, no matter whether they can offer a good home or not, it's still your dog!

Breeders retireing their breeding bitches and re-homing, I'm ok with 'real' breeders doing that, who have brought in a line to match their own, who know what they are doing and for what purpose and as long as they are honest with the pups breeder that this is not a longterm home but part of a programme, so that the bitch then has a vetted home to go to afterwards, sometimes this needs to happen to improve a breed and often the bitches are not old at all when they are re-homed.

But if a breeder has had a bitch a long time, she's spayed and still with that breeder until the latter part of her life, personally I feel it is cruel to re-home her/him, is that dog not part of the family now? Sorry couldn't do it, and don't understand people that do.

My FIL is 80 on 27th of tyhis month. MIL died in April and he id just getting to the stage when he is having to spend time at home alone. He had been asked if he wanted a dog earlier but said no, now he is changing his mind. I have found a lab rescue that would let him have an older dog 6+ or greyhound rescue.
He has a nice home, fenced garden, allotments and walks very close and it would be a lucky dog and human.

Could I pass on one of mine? I dont think I could, but, Im not a breeder so only have two, and I cant envisage a situation where I could not handle exercising our two. But its a good thing that there are some elderly folk with a lot of love and time left that could offer that to a dog somewhere.

I have no wish to offend anyone but how can anyone let one of their own dogs leave for another home just because it is an 'oldie' and someone else has taken a shine to her??  If a breeding bitch has given you all the fantastic rewards of her puppies and then when she is unable to have another litter she is 'cast aside', well IMO she deserves more than that!  Surely she should be kept in her own home and given extra special love for the rest of her life?  My apologies if this does offend anyone, but to me no matter how much anyone phrase's this it is not moral!

but to me no matter how much anyone phrase's this it is not moral!   What a lovely thing to say :-((

Just as well your breed is not relying on you to provide assurance for continual support providing quality , healthy dogs that are breed type that others can enjoy for generations and generations to come.

> I have no wish to offend anyone but how can anyone let one of their own dogs leave for another home just because it is an 'oldie' and someone else has taken a shine to her??  If a breeding bitch has given you all the fantastic rewards of her puppies and then when she is unable to have another litter she is 'cast aside'

Some of the dogs I wrote about aren't breeding bitches & really aren't that old. This breeder does this because she can only keep so many dogs for them to have a good quality of life. They may only be 3-4 years of age & having seen them with their new owners so happy & leading what you would call a "normal life" rather than being kennelled. The dogs are not cast aside they are placed in forever homes for no money with owners who have had the breed & this breeders dogs for a long time

I don't see a problem with re-homing an older bitch as long as that home is as good as or better than her present home . It is better IMO than being PTS for no longer being useful to the breeder .
I have seen a 2 year old bitch , in my desired breed , for re-homing and i am very tempted . However i am sure that most of you would agree that i am better getting a pup as i have children .

> I have seen a 2 year old bitch , in my desired breed , for re-homing and i am very tempted . However i am sure that most of you would agree that i am better getting a pup as i have children

If the dogs background and character are suitable then a two year old well behaved bitch would be my choice over a puppy any day, all the hard work already done ;)

I have often thought wouldn't it be lovely to get one of mien at that age, with someone else having dealt with training, chewing, silliness etc.

I agree but Im not a breeder, I have my dogs for life and I love them, but people who are breeding for the love of the lines and breed do not become so attached and if you have about 20 dogs a one to one for an older dog is not possible, that one to one usually comes in a pet situation. As I have got older I can see both sides. But i hope to have my two until death do us part.

surely a home on the sofa and loads of extra TLC is better than a life in a kennel (granted not all breeders kennel)

Just because someone may come along and take a shine to to an older dog - that presumably you love - I don't see why you should just let them take it ! How would you feel if a dog you bred was given away in a similar scenario by an owner you have trusted with one of your beloved puppies - ie the dog had got to 8 yrs and and as much as they loved it, someone else wanted it so they let it go ?!

Having said that, my dogs live in my home and curl up on my sofa with me and my husband and kids every night - I would never keep so many dogs that some would have to be outside in kennels. So, in the case of a retired breeding bitch who lives in kennels being given the opportunity to live the rest of her life in a family home, I do think that would be the best thing for her.

> but people who are breeding for the love of the lines and breed do not become so attached and if you have about 20 dogs a one to one for an older dog is not possible,

I would disagree slightly as I think most good breeders do become attached and if they have more dogs than the average pet owner they feel that some of their oldies would benefit from more one to one and that is why they will let them go.

I keep to the number I feel I can still give equal attention to, but could do more with my lines etc if I felt able to re-home some of the dogs that had served their part in that aim, but I personally can't.

Thats what I was trying to say some people will never part with a dog as they are family members, but some can as they are kennelled and one of many and in that case I think they let them go for company for dog and person. Im trying to be unbiased, I would rather loose a leg!!
(and as he is sat here smelling of pony pooh, all crinkly coated as I could not get all the pooh out in my office and we are stuck with each other until at least 6 tonight I wonder why!)

If the dogs background and character are suitable then a two year old well behaved bitch would be my choice over a puppy any day,

100% also :-)  work all done for you..

It is better IMO than being PTS for no longer being useful to the breeder .

Now I have a real problem with that statement.
In my opinion no good breeder would consider that as an option.

> If the dogs background and character are suitable then a two year old well behaved bitch would be my choice over a puppy any day, all the hard work already done ;-)

That is my thinking , but it sounds terribly lazy !!
My kids are desperate for a dog they can walk ( supervised ) , take to the beach and throw a ball for . I think a well socialised bitch with a good temperament who is used to kids would have a good family life with us . There's plenty of us here for walks and cuddles , in fact i don't think one dog would be enough !

>> but to me no matter how much anyone phrase's this it is not moral!   What a lovely thing to say :-((
>
> Just as well your breed is not relying on you to provide assurance for continual support providing quality , healthy dogs that are breed type that others can enjoy for generations and generations to come.

My dogs are healthy (all relevant health tests are clear), very much loved, have a wonderful life living in our Home, taken out for lovely country walks, fed top quality food and could not be loved anymore.  This is why i could never understand anyone re-homing either an elderly or ex breeding bitch (except in extreme circumstances).  Mine are with me until death do us part.
If there was a maximum limit, say 4 or 5 dogs, that anyone could own in a household/kennel, then IMO these situations of rehoming would occur less frequently.

My dogs are healthy (all relevant health tests are clear), very much loved, have a wonderful life living in our Home, taken out for lovely country walks, fed top quality food and could not be loved anymore.   Just as well breeders before you didnt just think of that immediate point in time.

If there was a maximum limit, say 4 or 5 dogs, that anyone could own in a household/kennel, then IMO these situations of rehoming would occur less frequently.   Yes and you would also loose some very good kennels and the quality of dogs " could drop" considerably.

I am not saying in all cases it is Ok to pass on dogs BUT I think it is wrong for you or anyone to judge and call someone immoral for doing what they think is right,  

Not all case but often there are people, breeders and kennels who do it for the right reasons , IE continual of a good healthy line that will be there for everyone to enjoy and also for the best interest of the dogs. IE too many dogs were as one to one would give a better life even is the first few week adjustment is strange.

Being cynical - passing on an older ex-breeding dog could avoid the almost inevitable extra health costs of old age, thereby reducing the costs of breeding :(

Daisy

Yes and being the opposite buying a older bitch in at say 2 or 3 years old generally means any genetic health problem would have reared it's head.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying it should be done on a regular basis I don't personally keep a lot of dogs anyway but I think people judge others too harshly sometimes for the sake of it rather than put their heads in gear and think it all though positively first :-D

> but I think people judge others too harshly sometimes

I believe that there are two types of breeder - neither of which I am judging, merely differentiating. The 'hobby' breeder who breeds his/her pets - they come first and none would ever be rehomed even if it means not being able to breed for a few years. The 'professional' breeder who has 'stock' and therefore looks at the welfare of the animals in relation to their breeding programme. I am not saying that either is a better/more caring breeder - just a different way of looking at breeding :)

Daisy

I see the categories a bit different than that.    I know many "hobby" breeder who let the " run on puppy"  , slightly older one go to " better" homes.   These breeders are those that under no circumstance will just breed from what they have, the pet dog they had hope for but that only stayed at that.. Hope :-D    Their vision for themselves and the breeds future is far greater.  

> Being cynical - passing on an older ex-breeding dog could avoid the almost inevitable extra health costs of old age, thereby reducing the costs of breeding :-(

Exactly....surely this turns the breeding into a financial gain game.  IMO it shouldn't be about a profit or loss situation.

> I am not saying in all cases it is Ok to pass on dogs BUT I think it is wrong for you or anyone to judge and call someone immoral for doing what they think is right,

I am not judging, this is just my opinion!  Yes in extreme circumstances i can understand why a dog would be rehomed but if a breeder just has 'too many dogs', then surely they haven't considered the long term welfare of all of their dogs.  They don't just appear overnight with their suitcases packed ready to move in, its us that controls the situation and we need to consider the 'whole' of their life's.

Wendy there is no need for me to say anything as you have said it all for me..i agree with you on this one.

Yes Wendy, very good statement.
My mentor in this breed is very well respected for his 'stock'. The only time that he lets one go is if they are not getting on well with his others (you will always get one that prefers to be an only dog and get all the attention). He has all his 'oldies' until they die and sees no reason for them to be moved on after he can't breed from them anymore. He will often say that he cannot keep something this time as his numbers are as high as he would be able to manage. His puppies are in demand he just doesn't always keep one for himself but still manages to keep his bloodlines going through other people.


Exactly....surely this turns the breeding into a financial gain game.  IMO it shouldn't be about a profit or loss situation.

That is your negitive take on it, most good breeders don't ever think of the profit and lose but of the breeds welfare, future interest of of course the quality of life each and every dog has.  

I am not judging, this is just my opinion! To say someone has done an immoral act is judging.   

I understand how you feel.   I am at full capacity just now myself but two older ones will be staying forever.  I just dont judge everyone that may be making a decision for the right reason.

I have never rehomed any of my dogs old or young they stay with me until they die and always will.I had a bitch who never was used for breeding and I had her spayed at 3 years old,I suppose I could of rehomed her but why should I. She was one of my
pups I bred so its my responsiblity to look after her.I bought a pup back i bred a few years ago because the owners were moving
and couldnt take him.He is still here with me now,I could of rehomed him too.Why should I, again I bred him so it is my responsibilty to look after him.I currently have 3 oldies here now who will stay with me until they pass over, plus I still have younger ones here with me .

im sure most breeders who rehome an oldie  don't charge for the dog. ( I didn't, and no she never had pups))   the home is more important surely?

im sure most breeders who rehome an oldie  don't charge for the dog. ( I didn't, and no she never had pups))   the home is more important surely?

Of course it is Sal, most ore certainly everyone I know does it all for the right reasons. It breaks most hearts.   The odd one I know of will spay or neuter a dog at their expense and wait and wait till that priceless suberb home comes along, one that the breeder believe is better than the breeders home, one to one with indivudual attention.

I have seen the flip of the coin where someone keeps everything, all the run on stock and the oldies and they have not the best life in the world , a far better one to one home awaits them.

It is always the same on here we seem to lack to see a middle group.   It is either the best to extreme or the worst. Never the middle :-D   Just people I guess :-)

> If there was a maximum limit, say 4 or 5 dogs, that anyone could own in a household/kennel, then IMO these situations of re-homing would occur less frequently.

They would actually occur more frequently as in order to maintain and continue a viable line of breeding in a long lived breed.

In many places in Australia there is a limit on numbers.

I exported a pup 11 years ago to a long established breeder in South Australia, (they showed her to her title) and where they are they have a limit of 4 dogs over 16 weeks of age.

Their view is that any dog they imported would stay with them for life, but would occasionally re-home those they bred themselves, using the logic that they would only be having one change of home since birth.

They already had an older  Norwegian imported bitch, her last son, and a bitch of their own breeding.

They bred from my pup two litters thinking they would have plenty of time to keep a puppy from a third litter when the old imported girl was no more.  the old girl Tessa decided to live to I think 16 years old, by which time Kari was 7, they mated her and got one dog pup, they tried one last time with no success, so no bitches to carry on her line, and sadly none of her earlier offspring were with breeders :(

Kari is now nearly 11 years old and has just gained her Tracker Dog Excellent following a change in career after after spaying (they can't show spayed bitches in breed except in veteran classes).

To make maximum use of the expensively imported lines they would have been sensible to re-home them and keep their offspring, but emotional bonds sometimes come before the most logical options for breed/line advancement. :)

>surely a home on the sofa and loads of extra TLC is better than a life in a kennel (granted not all breeders kennel)

Spot on, I've just got back from the breeder & the mother of the puppies is 6 & this is her one & only litter(unless one of the puppies turns out to be really spectacular & knowing this breeder it will be her only litter as she is keeping a bitch from it) Absolutely super situation for her dogs, they are all very friendly, but sensible & if I was looking for an older Lab I would be knocking on her door. The mum of the puppies is absolutely gorgeous & so well behaved(except for taking all the puppies into the garden for a walk !!!!

I think many people think all dogs should stay in their breeders home or the first person to own them after the breeder, which in a perfect world would be the case, but as Sal writes, better to be in a forever home indoors in a small household than live in a much bigger group of dogs.

This breeder does keep oldies & only rehomes when she has a forever home waiting & a dog she thinks is suitable.

> It is either the best to extreme or the worst. Never the middle    Just people I guess 

I have always admired Barbara very much as a breeder. She seems to encompass all the best in a breeder - so where does that place me then ?? :) Worst or best ?? :)

Daisy

I think people have to realise things are rarely black and white.

> I've met some of these dogs & what a lovely change to see sensible well behaved healthy dogs of this breed instead of pet bred "hooligans"

I've generally found it is the owners that make them hooligans, not the fact that they are 'pet bred'

My 'pet' breeder still has her three oldies of 11, 12 and 14, and I know would never part with them, even though it would mean that she could bring in younger dogs to breed from. Could I let my (non breeding) GSDs go to another home (even if it did pacify some old dear who had lost her own?) absolutely not, they mean the world to me. I would however encourage them (the old dears) to visit a rescue centre, or the Oldies Club to adopt an older dog (even if it may have to be a different breed) that actually NEEDED a new home because for whatever reason it didn't have one. 

What is not being understood by those who have purely companion dogs is that some dogs may serve more than that purpose, they may be working/competition dogs, links in the breeding chain of a breed etc.

If someones main interest lies in one of these other areas they may have/need more dogs than they would purely keep for companionship and may at the outset decide that only some will be kept for purely companionship after their other purpose is fulfilled, and the others will be retired to another companion home.

This does not mean they are not valued for themselves, which is why so much care is taken in placing them.  In a way it is no different than keeping one puppy from a litter rather than all of them, just the time scale is different.

Is it wrong for Guide dogs to be retired to a new home, or any other working dog?

I do actually understand what you say brainless. However the OP did not suggest that was why they were being rehomed. It wasn't (apparently) some part of a breeding chain, or working or competition dogs.

However, even while understanding what you say, I still don't understand how they could be given up, that may be overly emotional, and perhaps is just part and parcel of larger scale breeding. I wouldn't understand someone giving up a working/competition dog they'd had for most of their lives either. To me, whether I was breeding or not, competing or not, my commitment would be to that animal 100% for always. Among agility friends I have yet to hear of anyone who has given away their retired competition dog to make way for another. Granted you may not be able to fulfil your breeding programme as quickly as you would like, nor take on another competition dog as soon as you would like, but to me, that would be the price that any owner of any dog for whatever purpose should be prepared to pay.

Guide dogs are not always retired to another home. I know of a blind chap who has his original guide dog, and the newbie that has taken over from him. I am sure there may be situations where a blind person does not have the capacity to keep more than one dog. That however is not the same as an able bodied breeder choosing not to keep the dog.

> I've generally found it is the owners that make them hooligans, not the fact that they are 'pet bred'

That may be your experience of this breed, but it certainly isn't mine & I see so many pet bred dogs that have both health & temperament problems, these dogs have the very best upbringing & have already learnt their manners & good behaviour, both with dogs & humans. Plus this breeder only rehomes dogs she has bred herself

> I still don't understand how they could be given up, that may be overly emotional,

Don't wiorry I have never yet felt able to let any of mine go ;)  but if I was more competitive, felt I needed to achieve a specific goal (perhaps with limited time if I was older), then I can understand someone else being able to.

MM So we have different experiences, perhaps we should avoid sweeping generalisations. Your reference was 'hooligans'. To me that is not a temperament issue, but a socialisation/training issue. You say yourself that these dogs have the very best upbringing. My point exactly, so often a nurturing issue is blamed on 'breeding' especially in GSDs.

Great if someone is rehoming one of their own bred dogs that has for whatever reason been returned to them I applaud that. I didn't get the sense that this was the case from the OP. I would prefer to see the opportunity for all the old dogs that are out there desperately needing homes in their twilight years, than breeders rehoming dogs that don't actually need them. This is where I am coming from. I despair when I see a poor oldie in kennels (I have adopted the odd one myself :). So vulnerable, so afraid, it is so tragic when they have been loved and cared for all their lives. It is even more tragic when they die in kennels. 

so where does that place me then ?? :-) Worst or best ?? :-)   I don't think there is the two extremes worse or best hence my defence in some of the, what I believe are a little "narrow minded" posts ;-)   

I hope you sit right in the middle somewhere.

I have seen both sides of the coin and I think there is a happy medium to be found.     I can bare to see oldie in runs and kennels or any dogs for that matter others will think that is entirely fine.   If it works for them and their dogs welfare.
 

Is it wrong for Guide dogs to be retired to a new home, or any other working dog? Good Point Barbara. Wished I had thought of it :-D

> My point exactly, so often a nurturing issue is blamed on 'breeding' especially in GSDs.

Er I never wrote that they were GSDs any GSD puppies I go to are tattooed not microchipped Totally wrong breed !

MM
Hands up. That'll teach me to do such things so early in the morning :)

I did actually notice you said Labradors, but I then forgot about it, and I just automatically associate you with GSDs.

However, regardless of the breed (which isn't a particular issue on this thread) In my view hooliganism in any young dog is almost invariably lack of training/socialisation, not a breeding related temperament issue. By the way, even my remark 'especially GSDs' is on it's own very relevant as we all know how easily an undertrained and undersocialised GSD will give the breed a bad name all too easily. Somehow people don't seem to be so fazed by an unruly labrador :)