Does anyone have any statistics on tail injuries in the "new crop" of undocked GSPs, born after the Animal Welfare Act came into force and many breeders have ceased docking ?

I have several people who want to booked docked puppies from my next litter and have the correct paperwork, i.e. letters from shoot owners/game keepers to say they work their dogs, shotgun licences, etc... but the vet at the practice I am currently using says he and his partners have a code of ethics which only covers working spaniels, as they think the bigger hunting gundogs with short coats and long tails will not get injured.

I do not like having puppies docked, but I wonder if anyone has got any evidence of injuries.
Angela Boyd

the legal dog is ok, i now a guy that has been docking by taking only a 1/4 off the end for years, his spaniels are fine. and you know what spaniels are like.

I've found that my oldest Boxer has been injured because of the tail.
She was hit smack in her face and eyes by my 'tailed' Boxer ended up with an eye ulcer (twice it's happened now)

Although the tailed one hasn't injured her tail herself yet (touching wood) hers is quite thick and plenty of hair to protect it.
But I have heard other Boxer owners that have had to had amputation/partial amputation due to damage.
Also others with eye injuries caused by tails too.

Might be worth asking on any HPR boards or the breed club secretaries to see if anyone is keeping records of injuries?

I know someone with a HPR dog who had his tail damaged whilst travelling in a crate in the van.The dog cracked his tail and needed two operations, and several months recovery.
Whilst docking is still legal here I have not docked in the past but decided to on this occasion, when it becomes ilegal then of course the choice wont be there.

Is any organisation gathering information on tail injusries since the docking ban?

I have an undocked dog (not GSP though), just turned a year old last weekend who keeps splitting his tail on anything and everything and he's not working! Dread to think what his tail would be like if he did work. :-(

not gsps, but I have an undocked :( HWV and his tail is a constant problem with split ends, infected tissue, constant bleeding........its come close to being amputated several times now!! I wouldnt have another undocked on thats for sure.

The GSPC is collecting info on tail damage so they may have more up to date info for you ? Have continued docking mine so no first hand experince of tailed dogs but I believe one or two folks have found working tailed dogs more of a problem than they had expected. I believe Sue Pitman (GSP rescue) has had a number of tail problems since the AWB  .. perhaps another useful contact?

K

my 13 month weimaraner has a big scab on end of her long tail and has done for weeks : (
I like her tail but I have  a nasty feeling she won't be keeping it for life as way it cracks into things is painful to see

You could speak to the owner of the male as I don't think they have docked for years in Sweden...
Of course there is a slight difference in the "vegetation" the dogs work in but I would think they could give you a good idea.

My current dogs are both docked, but I had a GD with a full tail and it was a nightmare for her!  Her 'wag' was so powerful she was constantly smashing it, and it never had time to heal properly.  I don't think it's just about workers - some breeds just have tails that have too much muscle or that act like a whip, and so they end up with dreadful tail injuries. 

Actually it probably IS most workers that it affects, because dogs of working breeds have much greater developed muscles.

Hi I am in the USA. I came across your board while doing research about my dog.

I was told my dog was a pure Chocolate Lab but we don't care since we got him from a no kill dog shelter. I always take unwanted dogs since they are the best. I did my research & found out he was a Labrador Weimaraner based on his crazy tail turning in circles & his ears. Well honestly we take him to the mountains, the lake, & the dog park. We have had zero problems w/ his tail. He even runs through rose bushes at the RoseGarden Park here w/o issues. If a dog is an regularly exercised pet then there is zero reason to dock it. My family had quite a few pure Doberman Pinschers w/ undocked ears & undocked tails that roamed the hills of Colombia, South America w/o any problems. They had some major Briar/ Brier Patches too. I see many sporting dogs here in the USA w/ undocked tails hunting w/o issues.

I BEG any breeders not to make LabMaraner hybrids! Mine has terrible hip dysplasia & we are blessed we can afford physical water therapy (walking the water immersed treadmill) to build his muscles & strength. He is doing great now b/c of therapy & we feed him home cooked dog food w/ premium dog food & BARF medallion treats. He gets walked over 3KMs a day. We keep him very lean & trim (like a German Pointer) to keep the stress on his hips to a minimum. He sheds like crazy & it's twice the hair w/ his course outer Lab hair plus the brown downy like undercoat. He is a shining example why breeders need to be limited & regulated. Too many dogs & cats get dumped b/c people just want a animal w/o doing research about it; plus too many irresponsible breeders out there are in the business & just sell b/c it is their main income.

Unfortunately many of the "hybrids" suffer with many health problems you just have to look at the OFA website to see this.  Shame vets here in the UK don't use this information.

Sorry, but not sure by the way a dog wags it's tail shows that it's a cross, that's a new one to me!  Just in my breed alone there are many different ways that different dogs wag their tails.

Also the way that your dog is playing is different to the way that some working dogs work and is why it doesn't injure its tail.

My daughters ESS is 4 and un-docked, he has had terrible problems with his tail over the last year, he is such a happy dog, he is constantly hitting it on everything and my walls, doors, well everything he can hit his tail on has blood splats on.  After a trip to the vet and a course of Fuciderm ointment our vet decided the problem is not going to go away, so he is booked in tomorrow to have almost half his tail removed :-( He will not look like the same dog with half a tail bless him :-(

I used to have problems with one of my Irish, he would smash his tail on the walls and doors and then would spray blood everywhere !! He hasnt done it now for a couple of years, im wondering if the scar tissue as made the end of his tail tougher ?

> He will not look like the same dog with half a tail bless him

He will look like he should've looked had he been docked, which had he been done as a young puppy would've saved the poor dog a lot of trips to the vet & injuries to his tail.      He can still wag it to show he's happy but he will not be in pain now.

Its funny how dogs tails differ so much in strength. My undocked springer has never hurt his tail, yet its always wagging and hitting things and is never affected by thick cover.

2 of my Large Munsterlander bitches have caught the ends of their tails but the 3rd who was the one that was 'tipped' never did.   

Denzil (my daughters ESS) had his tail op on Thursday, it went well :-) My daughter and my self do not beieve in docking.  I think it was just unfortunate that he had the problems with his tail that he did.  My 4 years old ESS bitch is undocked, and has never had problems with her tail.  Oh well its all sorted now, and hopefully that will be his one and only operation :-)
Thanks for your comments

> Denzil (my daughters ESS) had his tail op on Thursday, it went well

I would be interested to know how quickly/well it heals, if you don't mind giving us an update.

Not that it actually affects me, I'm just interested. 

My Calida is forever whacking her tails against things and I must admit I'm surpised that she hasn't damaged it yet.  Unfortunately my other dogs eyes have had an attack of the whipster quite a few times and this does really worry me, luckily as soon as she comes near they do all seem to shut their eyes tight bless them!

Of course i can let you know the outcome.  He is having his second bandage off on Tuesday. :-)

My daughter thought Denzils tail would harden, but it didnt :-(

Its 19 days since the operation, he is on his 4th bandage (at £11 a go) Not healing as vet would like it to :-( Says if it doesnt heal, he may have to have another operation to take a bit more off :-(

this is why im all for docking ....your daughter dog must be in pain ,i now know of a few that have had to have full docking of tails because of not being able to heal after having just tips off :( .... its a very painful op to have when a dogs older ,when done as a pup it heals fast and they dont remember ,hope all goes well this tme fingers crossed xx

Hi
I know i'm joining this discussion late, but am going to anyway.
My Dalmatian had about 2/3 of his tail amputated just over a year ago, I can honestly say he got over it a lot quicker than i did.  We had tried 4 weeks of getting it to heal and then it got gangrene so had to go!  Even though he was obviously unwell when he had it done he healed very well, admitidly the vet did not just remove the tip, he has the same amount left as a docked Weimeraner.  Anyway, whilst i would say if i had another that did the same i would go straight for the amputation i can say it hasn't made me pro docking.
J

Thanks for the update db.  :-)  I was interested because I remember my own vet telling me about a tail that wouldn't heal.  I think it was a Boxer, but some time ago now. 

I am grateful that you came on to tell us your experience though.  The only docked breeds I've ever owned are Toy Poodles and Yorkshire Terriers.  Not the size to get lots of tail injuries.   But I've always wondered about the larger breeds.  My own large dogs are the type that have huge hairy tails, that seem to withstand anything.

I just hope that things turn around, and you don't have to start worrying about another operation.

My daughters dog had ANOTHER bandage put on his tail today :-( Its cost my daughter £100 in RE-DRESSING his tail so far!!! The tail operation only cost £187!!!!  Vet said today she thinks its finally starting to heal :-)

> Its cost my daughter £100 in RE-DRESSING his tail

Blimey!   Although My own vet charged me £20 to redress a poorly paw on one of my Beardies.  I didn't have the nerve to say that it was the nurses fault, and the dressing didn't make it to the car from the surgery.  I guess he though the dog had removed it, and I didn't have the gumption to speak up!

You must be so relieved that it is actually starting to heal.  I am glad that you have posted progress, as it's the only way that we can all learn - from each others experiences.  Your experience certainly seems to tie in with what my vet has said to me about tail amputations in older dogs.  Which is why, I guess, that I can't be totally anti about docking (if it's the breed that needs it.)

This might be a silly question but could your daughter dress the tail herself?
Get the nurse to show how it is done and purchase what is needed?
We have always dressed our dogs paws etc. Changing the dressing regularly ourselves following the vets advise(often changed once a day, showered with water etc).
Surely a tail dressage can't be that complicated compared to paw(toes, movement of a leg etc)?
I could be wrong of course, never had a tail dressed on any of our dogs...

i know of an undocked Rottweiler bitch that put her tail though a glass door shattering the door and cutting the tail badly , mind you this was about 18 years ago now and the dog was not a working dog but just a pet,
so their was no real need to have the tail docked in the first place their were 9 puppies in the litter and none were docked and none of the new owners were bothered by the dogs having their tails only one owner and thats because of this one incident,

Denzil is still having his tail re-dressed twice a week!!!! The tail looked very sore today :-( Yes I agree with what your saying about bandaging it ourselves :-) My daughter was rushed into hospital today 50 miles away so we didnt get a chance to pop to Boots to get some bandages.  But I will tomorrow.  Its been 29 days since the operation we are wondering how much longer its going to take.  Also surely by not getting any air to it is not helping matters. . . .

ahh now i didnt read the firts part of your posts (if their was one i missed it) but Ahh if your dogs going thu this maybe its better they dont have their tails , i mean i only ever recived a little email from the women who had one of my tailed Rotties about the tail breaking the glass door, where she said to me " i so wish youd have had the tail docked  since the pups just put her tail thu the glass door and she did tell me she would talk t her vet more about what to do about it but feared the vet would just patch it up, and not want to remove it ,

But in all fairness accidents happen to other parts of the body too. We can't just remove a leg just because they may break it in the future.

> But in all fairness accidents happen to other parts of the body too. We can't just remove a leg just because they may break it in the future.

What a strange example in comparison?    Since when has a dog needed it's tail to walk on?

Since when has a dog needed it's tail to walk on?

lol like it rofl

I have this problem with my lab - in fact, I've just finished wiping the blood spatters from the walls from her latest episode.  A friend's lab has just had the end of her tail amputated as it was not healing.  It was suggested she tape a small piece of plumbing piping over the end of her tail and it really helped.

I have a 8 year old docked GSP. There have been many many occasions when I must admit that I have been pleased that it had been docked because of her natural hunting instinct of rushing into gorse bushes & her poor tail would have been badly injured -had it have been intact. Also she had her dew claws removed another prevention of suffering!

They have a tail for a reason. Weather its just communication or balance or whatever i'm not sure. Fair enough some dogs are born without them, but just because they are born with tails it doesn't mean we should automatically chop them off just because they may cause a problem. Its a fair enough comparison because its a body part just the same as a leg. Legs break, tails get broken (although its something i haven't seen much of in 5 yesars of working in a vets!) but that doesn't mean we should chop them off just in case they do. My BC has huge flappy hind dew claws. In 8 years she has never caught them on anything. So i could have put her through the pain of having them removed for nothing.

Interesting to note that we have lots of working cockers in our area (the new forest) and many of them now have tails due to the docking ban. I have not seen any dogs having to have their tails amputated in the last 5 years which means no increase since the ban. 

> Interesting to note that we have lots of working cockers in our area (the new forest) and many of them now have tails due to the docking ban. I have not seen any dogs having to have their tails amputated in the last 5 years which means no increase since the ban.

That's not true, you're only speaking from experience at the vets practice where you work!!

I have a docked bitch, docked before the ban, and an undocked dog who is 14 mnths old and I wish he had been docked even if it did restrict where I could show him although in Scotland I could show him at all shows anyway! He was only around 4mnths old when he first split his tail in the house when he was wagging it at the door when my hubby came home from work. There was blood everywhere!! One day we were at a show and he hit his tail off my daughters leg and that was enough to open it up again. He was splitting it open at least 2 or 3 times a week on a good week. I would say that it is only in the last 6mnths that his tail seems to have healed and toughened with scar tissue but he has very little hair on the last 4" of his tail to give it any protection. My vet has also seen an increase in tail damage since the ban came in and would far rather see pups docked as a split tail and amputation causes the dog far more pain and discomfort. I don't think dog owners will ever agree on docking and I wasn't pro docking or anti before I had my dogs but after everything that my dog has gone through with his tail, I would far rather he was docked.

Yes i said i was speaking about the vets practice i work at, i didn't say that i was saying there had been no dogs at all with damaged tails, i was just saying in the two surgeries i work at we have seen none.

Most of the working cocker / ESS  litters I have seen advertised in England / Wales have had tails docked as MOST working people will not consider working dogs with a tails because of the high risk of damage. An unndocked litter of working cockers / ESS IME would be difficult to sell and most working breeders have vets that will dock under the exemption. Most working spaniels are also not docked short like the show cousins so at first look they may not appear docked. My friends vet commented that it was nice to see an undocked working dog the other week only to be embarrased to find out the dog was in fact docked !! 

As a result of the vast majority of working spaniels being docked I am sure your practice will see few tail injuries as prevention is better than cure.

K

A couple of my Munster bitches have caught the ends of their tails whilst out on their walks and it was permissable to just tip the tail of a LM which I think is very sensible.    I also had all the dew claws taken out of my first 2 litters and never regretted it, I got a vet who wasn't keen for my 3rd litter and left the front ones, although there's not been any injuries to date, I'm still very wary of them.

> Its a fair enough comparison because its a body part just the same as a leg. Legs break, tails get broken

Yes but if a dog's tail breaks or has to be amputated it won't miss it as much as it'll miss a leg, will it?   4 legs to 3 will make most dogs have to change their gaits, I can't see a shorter tail having to do that.

>i was just saying in the two surgeries i work at we have seen none.

Likewise at our two surgeries. Tail amputations are very rare - a labrador and a great dane, to date. None from 'traditionally docked breeds' since the ban came in force.

I don't work near any veterinary surgeries but know of 3 dogs who've had to have parts of tail removed through damage! 

We've had a fair few undocked working cocker and springer pups brought in over the last couple of years though, don't know if they worked, although some of them were certainly destined too. Tbh though i don't think it makes much difference to the dog whether they are being asked to work or not, my full tailed springer regularly choses to run through thick cover on the forest and as yet has never damaged his tail and i thnk the fact that we don't see the other tailed spaniels (or other normally docked breeds left as nature intended) regualrly for tail injury speaks volumes about how many actually damage their tails. I regualrly mix with lots of differnt dog owners, through dog training, agility and flyball and work and have yet to find any dog owner that has had to have an amputation, or indeed i don't know of any with injuries. Maybe its down to the area i live in but it certainly wouldn't convince me to dock. Only one of our vets will dock now anyway.

How many dog owners don't take their dogs to the vet when the tails are split? I know I didn't and I know my pup's breeder didn't when the bitch she kept split her tail! Maybe vets only see the worst injuries or the ones that just won't heal and need vet treatment.

To be honest, if they don't need vet treatment then it's not really a serious welfare issue, is it?

> To be honest, if they don't need vet treatment then it's not really a serious welfare issue, is it?

I never said that it was a serious welfare issue, only pointed out that not all tail injuries are seen by vets.

It could be the start of a serious welfare issue couldn't it? My pups tail split at the very tip and to prevent it getting any worse I used to grab the end of his tail when he started to wag it when folk came in the house, made a fuss of him etc, I also had foam tubing on it every time it was healing to protect it, carried styptic with me when I was out with him, did everything I possibly could to protect his tail and prevent it from getting any worse and I am sure many dog owners in the same position would do the same. Had his tail not healed then it would have become more serious but what is a serious tail injury?

Prevention is better than cure and it's also far cheaper than running to the vet every time it splits!! Maybe my dogs tail injury wasn't 'serious' in your eyes cause I treated it without vet intervention BUT it is still an injury to an undocked dog and as I said vets may not have seen an increase because folk are treating injuries themselves therefore vets are not giving a true indication of tail injuries.

>Had his tail not healed then it would have become more serious but what is a serious tail injury?

A serious injury is one that affects an animal's quality of life, whether through pain or infection, or other reasons. Animals (and humans) get injuries to various parts of their bodies every day, but it doesn't mean they're serious injuries.

I've had a dog which used to split her tail - but each time it was treatable, and was certainly never a justification for preventative docking, which is the basis of the docking debate. We get quite a few dogs in with ear-flap injuries, which bleed far more profusely than tail injuries, but we realise that's no reason to crop ears!