Some of you may have read an article in the UK dog magazines this week on the GSD denying health concerns on the backlines and hind quarters.   I have just received this from a friend. 

The following is an article written by John R Walker.  It concerns the health problems of the German shepherd dog - structural deformaties.   

SV Changes the Standard.

'It is reported in the July -August 1997 edition of the canine journal WUFF that the SV, now under Herr Peter Mebler has changed the 1993 version of the breed standard so that a straight back is now specified!

This follows hard on the heels of what must be one of the most scathing attacks ever by an SV insider. In the previous edition when Dr Helmut Raiser described the currently fashionable GSD conformation as being

"A dog at the front and a frog at the back".

The new wording is as follows with the relevant change highlighted in bold type:

Die Oberlinie verlauft vom Halsansatz uber den homen langen Widerrest unduber den GERADEN RUCKEN bis zur leicht abfallendenKruppe ohne sichtbare Unterbrechung. Der Rucken ist maBig lang, fest,kraftig und gut bemuskelt.   (German reference to straight back)

The important change from the 1993 version is that the Standard now demands a straight back rather than a gently sloping back.

Under the new heading of the Pathological Geometry the article puts forward the veterinary viewpoint that the currently fashionable conformation represents an unnatural physiological structure around the region of the hip joints, and in the lumbar-sacral region of the spine around the loin and croup. From this comes exostosis (bony outgrowths) which narrow the spinal canal causing damage to the spinal canal and the nerve within which is chronic and can be correspondingly painful to the animal.

The article then goes on to say that the change in the Standard shows, this time, what farsighted functionaries at the highest level in the SV have again been saying.

A Little of the recent History

Some prominent members of the German veterinary profession have been campaigning for some time to return to a straight backline following increasing evidence that the currently fashionable convex hinged backline is responsible , in whole or in part, for the many skeletal ills which currently impact upon breed health, movement , and fitness for work.

Professor Wegner, geneticist of the Hanover Veterinary School has led a campaign over many years to return to a more traditional and more bio-mechanically optimised shape. In various articles and in his book, Kleine Kynologie, he has made repeated attacks on the SV for allowing the breed to stray from the Physical and mental prowess which made the GSD the World's leading utility dog.

In Germany, 1996 was designated the year of the dog by the BTK (Bundestierarztekammer- The German equivalent of the British Veterinary Association) and the GSD figured prominently amongst the breeds said to be causing widespread concern over the general health status. The BTK papers included contributions from a number of leading German Veterinary professionals up to Professor level, including the BTK President Professor Gunter Pschorn.

Under the sub heading of diseases which two breeds have been susceptible to for decades, the GSD, was itemised as follows:

HD (Huftgelenksdysplasie)
Myasthenia gravis ( Erkrankung an Neerven/Muskeln)
Bandscheibenvorfall (Schaferhundelahme)
Harnsteinbildung
Magendrehung.

Item one is self explanatory- it is hip dysplasia. Item two ie degenerative wasting of nerve and muscle tissue. Item three is prolapse of the vertebrae, which is one logical outcome from the current unnatural spine angulation resulting in (literally) "SHEPHERD DOG LAMENESS" . The most likely translation for item four seems to be urinary lculas/retention. Item five is Gastric Torsion

John R Walker.

So what has changed from 1997?  Very little - Helmut Raiser and the S.V fell out and he formed his own group (RSV2000) in the hope of conserving the breed.  We still have the roached GSD, for those that don't understand roach - have a look at Linda Shaw's description 

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/04_The_Back/The_Back.html

Now add over-angulation in the hind quarters into the equation coupled with looseness and a staggering appearance in walk and 30 years of breeding on the lines of 2 dogs - Canto von der Wienerau & Quanto von der Wienerau..... and where are we... genetically saturated to the point of non recovery?  So say we carry on the same path that is advocated by some, denial on health issues, smoke and mirror tactics on mandatory health tests, not addressing genetics and it won't be the breed or mandatory health testing on the agenda - it will be zilch.  

There are fundamental issues that urgently need addressing because if it doesn't happen, in 10 years we will no longer have a functioning GSD breed.  Some say it is already too late - already the lifespan has dropped.

This is not meant to criticise the breed or those in it, it is simply to reinforce the point that change needs to happen. 

If you would like to comment, please keep it constructive and objective.

> There are fundamental issues that urgently need addressing because if it doesn't happen, in 10 years we will no longer have a functioning GSD breed.  Some say it is already too late - already the lifespan has dropped.

Really No more GSDs ? Shorten lifespans ? Amongst all GSDs ??

VPG dogs are not functioning dogs then ?

The HGH dogs are  not functioning dogs despite working sheep every day ???

Who is John R Walker the person who runs a website about Dwarfism & collates pedigrees, but who refuses to give out any information about the common ancestors to breeders, who have sadly bred dwarf puppies ! Really helpful to breeders before the Marker gene was found

Perhaps we should go down the USA route after all their dogs aren't roached backed & have lovely straight()toplines in stance(sadly they have a very odd topline, head & tail carriage in movement)

Or the English route again the perfect straight topline & perfect hindquarters, perfect body proportions of course

Oh dear better get my crippled German VPG bred dog before they all die out through genetic malformations !

Read my post MM, please keep it constructive and objective. 

This was not posted to become a battle ground or to be twisted to mean something else

You will find that the article that I was initially referring to is concerning the showlines.

We have one breed, divided into many, many subdivisions. 

A functional GSD breed meaning ALL the breed - the breed in its entirety - which means all of it.  

Here, have some more information, this isn't John Walker

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16206786

That was really informative, and supports the fact that the Kennel Club are, for once, doing the right thing by attempting to get breeders to breed to the standard, and eliminate the physiological problems that the showline GSD is experiencing, and is bringing into the world of GSDs in general.

The showline GSD is what the public see, and therefore is what they think is correct, and if they research and look at some of the major kennels winning show titles this will further reinforce their opinion that this is what the GSD should be. Sadly, as in the case of many other breeds with overexaggerated features, this simply encourages more and more people to purchase puppies from these lines that they 'believe' to be correct. If nothing is done more and more breeders will win their titles and churn them out, thus saturating the general population of GSDs with these features.

Something has to give if we are to conserve the GSD as it should be. Yes MM, there are many different types around, and the working lines are much closer to the standard in my view. The VPH dog in the link is fabulous - but a million miles away from what is being produced by the showline and that is the point.  Problem is, these aren't the type people are likely to see or buy, because their profile is much lower. They see the dogs at shows winning their CC's that are a parody of what the breed should be.

Working lines are also often not ideal as pet dogs, and the majority of GSDs are owned as pets, it's a fact. I know that your belief is that only people who are going to work the GSD should have them. Let's face it, that's never going to happen. As a working breed it is nice to do some activity with them, as their raison d'etre is to work, but let's face it most are simply much loved pets. 

Attempting to get back to the standard doesn't only apply to the WG showline, it applies to all extremes including the 'alsatians' which are also not to the standard and have exaggerated proportions. The ideal here is to bring them ALL back to the standard.

I have never encountered a breed that is so divided and unable to see the big picture, and perhaps that is the crux of the problem, along with money and status, and a good amount of 'elitism' thrown into the mix.

Looking at the photos of a recent GSD show in Dog World this week, the winners appear to have roach backs and type varies enormously.

Maybe if the dogs were allowed to stand naturally and not posed they would loook better

In the horse world, conformation is something that is valued in relation to soundness ie. (to use a simple example) the hocks must not be too straight BECAUSE it would cause the joint to be compromised and prone to degenerative joint disease amongst other things and therefore limit the animals working life

This appears to be lacking in the dog world.

WHY are certain traits desirable in a breed??

Can't see how the exaggerated slope of the back end in show Shepherds can possibly be condusive to soundness, however I can see a SLIGHT slope and the corresponding shape of the hind leg could give the animal more 'push' and leverage provided the front and back ends match; it's a matter of simple physics

As the KC have seen fit to remove the term "pronounced wither"from the breed standard they are obviously wanting a dog that stands 4 square with only a slight slope from withers to croup, unfortunately this will mean that the dogs topline in movement will change & the dog will fall on forehand, unless it moves with it's head up(as per the USA/English type)this then will restrict fore reach & the movement of the dog is dramatically changed as the dogs will be sloping upwards from fore to hind. If the KC really want the GSD to move with it's head up & not as the working dog does they are preventing the dog from being fit for function as a shepherding breed-I've never seen a shepherding or sheep working breed work stock with it's head up in the air.

How can hocks be straight ? They are joints not bones.

I know that your belief is that only people who are going to work the GSD should have them. Let's face it, that's never going to happen. As a working breed it is nice to do some activity with them, as their raison d'etre is to work, but let's face it most are simply much loved pets.

Where have I said this ????????? They are not a first time dog owners breed, because few, if any, first time dog owners understand the amount of training & socializing a breed like a GSD needs.

The VPG dogs are bred for temperament, character & biddablity, yes they have a good work drive, but if handled correctly from puppy hood are quite as able to chill out as any other dog.

The vast majority of GSDs bred in the UK are not show dogs from either side of the divide, they are "pet/BYB bred" & this is were the real problem is. How many pet/BYB breeders bother to health test ? The nearest one to me believes that only show dogs have HD/ED & so hers don't need scoring for either. Only show dogs have epilepsy(despite two of her home bred dogs had epilepsy-mother & daughter). They have lovely straight/level toplines & apart from not being trust worthy if you turn your back on them, they make "perfect"pets.

Few people look at the show ring when choosing a pet dog, especially if they have a fancy for the ever growing incorrect colour/coat type, they remember the dogs of their youth/parents/G parents looking through rose tinted glasses. All the GSDs that attend our BAGSD branch are from pet bred/BYB litters not one is from a show breeder. None are from health tested parents & only one resembles anything like the breed standard ! They are mainly long coated & not even KC registered.

I've judged so many GSDs in obedience & can count on one hand the number that are from show breeders kennels. there are more VPG bred dogs appearing, but the vast majority are from so called"working lines"which are in essence longcoated dogs that do Obedience.

> I know that your belief is that only people who are going to work the GSD should have them.

This view, though not quoted directly, has been evident in many of your posts in the GSD debate. Perhaps I should have said, from posts on this subject in the past your view seems to be.....

> but if handled correctly from puppy hood

Quite, but if not handled correctly, with a good work drive they could turn into a nightmare. Not something the breed needs, especially as there are people already tarring sectors of the breed as having poor temperaments.

I agree not the vast majority are bred by the show kennels, but pet/byb breeders will follow the trend that is popular, and almost every kennel I have looked at on Google is breeding this type. I have actually seen far too many young shepherds in the showline mould appearing as pets just lately. Initially I thought they all had hip problems, but no, its the showline shape, and the resulting odd movement.

> The vast majority of GSDs bred in the UK are not show dogs from either side of the divide, they are "pet/BYB bred" & this is were the real problem is. How many pet/BYB breeders bother to health test ? The nearest one to me believes that only show dogs have HD/ED & so hers don't need scoring for either. Only show dogs have epilepsy(despite two of her home bred dogs had epilepsy-mother & daughter). They have lovely straight/level toplines & apart from not being trust worthy if you turn your back on them, they make "perfect"pets.

My shepherds were bred by a hobby/pet breeder, and as longcoats were obviously not bred with any showing in mind. They have full health tests. In fact of the sites I recently looked at, the longcoat sites were the only ones generally not breeding to international type. That doesn't mean that unless they are show breeders they don't health test. That is a terrible sweeping generalisation, and every single longcoat breeder I have come across does healthtest. This seems to be a form of propaganda put about by some elements of the GSD brigade. Certainly there are going to be some that don't, but I think it is very misleading to encourage people to believe that this is the case of every pet bred GSD, you must be very unlucky to have come across so many, unless they were bought from pet shops, which equates to puppy farmed dogs, in which case I agree obviously no health testing, and definitely no KC registration.

I know a number of people who have looked at the showring when thinking of buying a GSD, maybe not the majority, but, as I say the popularity of the international shape has already spread to breeders who do look at the show ring and emulate the current fashion. Now many people WILL search breeders on the internet, and this is what they will find primarily, it is certainly what I found. Ultimately this will lead to a saturation of type (as well as has been pointed out, a saturation of genetics).

Coat type will not be an issue soon, if the SVs plans to reintroduce the long stock coat comes into effect.

> I've judged so many GSDs in obedience & can count on one hand the number that are from show breeders kennels. there are more VPG bred dogs appearing, but the vast majority are from so called"working lines"which are in essence longcoated dogs that do Obedience.

I'm not sure that I understand the second part of this statement.

Can't see how the exaggerated slope of the back end in show Shepherds can possibly be condusive to soundness, however I can see a SLIGHT slope and the corresponding shape of the hind leg could give the animal more 'push' and leverage provided the front and back ends match; it's a matter of simple physics

Foxy, exactly right. The correct degree of angulation does just that. The showline type is suffering from overangulation, in addition to the roach back. This overangulation has been described as the Germans 'push for push'. Trying to obtain more and more push from the hind end, and going too far. It is a matter of physics, explained beautifully in a book by Linda Shaw. The exaggerated degree of angulation is detrimental to the health of the GSD, as the skeleton and muscles are placed under stress that their anatomical structure was not designed to deal with. Problem is supporters of the type deny that this is the case. In fact, they are not bred to the standard which states a specific degree of angulation. Gradually more and more angulation has crept in and been 'overlooked'. However, even the SV are concerned, it just remains to be seen whether or not they will do more than just acknowledge it as a problem and take action.

If only the dog world had half as much sense as the horse world. Of course conformation should be valued and bred for in relation to soundness. There is some evidence that indeed, longevity is something of a cause for concern now, as it seems to be decreasing in the showline GSD.

MM

The withers height for males is 60 to 65cm; that of bitches is 55 to 60cm.* The length of torso exceeds the measure of the withers height by about 10 - 17 %.

There is no mention here that the wither needs to be 'pronounced' just how it should relate to the length of the torso.

A little more about the withers:

However, the disk portions of the vertebrae are aligned horizontally in a dog standing naturally foursquare, and only slightly sloped in a show posed dog (Fig 2). Excessively high withers are generally due, not to longer processes or a straight shoulder, but to a steeply sloping spine, again resulting from an over-angulated rear (Fig 3).

It would seem that the KC are correct to remove the term pronounced wither, as it is created by overangulation.

Cow hocks, where the hocks point towards each other to some degree, can be caused by two conditions, one sound, the other unsound, (or less sound). It can occur either because of a slight turning out of the entire leg from the hip, or because of twisting of the hock and stifle joints.
I think this may be what OP was referring to in terms of straight hocks.

Many Sieger show winners some 10 - 20 years ago did not have these current 'attributes' and certainly didn't fall on their forehand or move with their heads up, so why do you propose that this is what would happen now?

> How can hocks be straight ? They are joints not bones.

It's a figure of speech to describe a more 'open' joint angle creating the impression of the whole hind leg looking straighter when viewed from the side.

you mean rear pasterns.

> I agree not the vast majority are bred by the show kennels, but pet/byb breeders will follow the trend that is popular, and almost every kennel I have looked at on Google is breeding this type. I have actually seen far too many young shepherds in the showline mould appearing as pets just lately. Initially I thought they all had hip problems, but no, its the showline shape, and the resulting odd movement.

Most people seeking a pet, don't bother with google, they look in the local papers, on the free puppy sites etc. Get hold of a copy of the BRS for the pastoral group & see how many GSDs are registered each 1/4 & how many GSDs are hip/elbow scored & then contact the League for the number of Haemophilia tests. It is very obvious that most of the dogs that are scored are from show/working breeders & that many of the very high scoring dogs are from breeders who do not have a kennel name & do not show, I've seen a good number of high scoring dogs that are still bred from & none belong to known show kennels.

I suggest you have a look at the GSDs in rescue-our rescue(which has been operating for over 40 years)receives 99.99999% non International type-dogs obviously not bred to any form of breed standard.

I've not met a VPG GSD breeder who would sell a puppy to a first time dog owner & this isn't the case for breeders of the so called"Working"GSDs that are simply from parents that do Obedience. We do have a fair few of these handed over into rescue-nothing wrong with the dogs-they have simply been sold to the wrong people.

Coat type Hm The current correct coat will continue to be registered as they are today & the longcoats will have their own register & never the twain will appear in the same ring. I do expect the SV will require a correct undercoat for the LCs & that's something that is lacking in so many UK LC to LC for generations bred GSDs

Do you go to a GSD only training club ? If you don't then you aren't really seeing a typical cross section of GSDs in the UK.

Is the breeder of your dogs having the DNA tests done ? Now that there is a test for Dwarfism(which is more common in LC lines apparently)I would expect all breeders to be having the test done on all their puppies before they are sold. Not to do so is really negligent !

What don't you understand about "Working"Obedience bred GSDs not being the same as VPG dogs ??? VPG dogs have to pass the Korung that the showline & HGH dogs do. In the UK a GSD is termed a "Working "GSDs even if it is only working Pre Bs

No when I mentioned hocks I was using an example relating to horses conformation LOL!

> you mean rear pasterns.

Correct Barbara I really do get annoyed with people using incorrect"colloquial"terms for a body part that has a totally different meaning.

> No when I mentioned hocks I was using an example relating to horses conformation LOL!

????? From this chart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Horse_parts.jpg it would seem that the Hock in a horse is the same as in a dog, the joint,  and the pastern is the pastern/Cannon.

The hock is a joint in a horse as well as a dog

The hock, or gambrel, is the tarsal joint of a digitigrade quadruped, such as a horse, cat, or dog. It is the anatomical homologue of the ankle of the human foot. it is not the rear pastern

> ????? From this chart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Horse_parts.jpg it would seem that the Hock in a horse is the same as in a dog, the joint,  and the pastern is the pastern/Cannon.

If you read my post further up, when I mention 'straight hocks' as a poor conformation fault in horses which affects their soundness and therefore undesirable, I do infact mean hocks not pasterns, although either would be a fault of course ;-)

> Many Sieger show winners some 10 - 20 years ago did not have these current 'attributes' and certainly didn't fall on their forehand or move with their heads up, so why do you propose that this is what would happen now.

Really Iso(1989 Sieger)has a pronounced wither, as does 1999 Sieger Riktor as does 1979 Sieger Eros as does 1969 Sieger Heiko

Now either I am mistaken about these dogs being the Sieger for at least one & in some cases 2 years or you are mistaken about them not having pronounced withers.

> when I mention 'straight hocks

Hocks cannot be "straight" they are joints not the bone above or below them, they can be loose in construction & the rear pasterns can turn out because of this(or in the case of many young GSDs because the ligaments & muscles are not firm etc.

The terminology "cow hocked" means a hock of a horse or dog that turns or bends inward like that of a cow so that the shanks of the hind legs are very close.

> Hocks cannot be "straight" they are joints not the bone above or below them

LOL! of course not it's terminology used to describe a conformation fault in horses!!

> The terminology "cow hocked"

Yes!! that's it, terminology!! not meant literally!!!

Google it if you would like to know more, there are pages and pages about it.

>unfortunately this will mean that the dogs topline in movement will change & the dog will fall on forehand,

>Many Sieger show winners some 10 - 20 years ago did not have these current 'attributes' and certainly didn't fall on their forehand or move with their heads up, so why do you propose that this is what would happen now?

Julie posted some interesting comments about this on a thread in 2005, second page, I found it educational.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/74548pg2.html

>in the case of many young GSDs because the ligaments & muscles are not firm etc

Why is that MM?

Thanks for that link Spender, makes perfect sense

When I say attributes, I mean the whole package - angulation, roach, withers. I guess it all depends on ones definition of pronounced. I would not say that these past Siegers had pronounced withers. My point is that the standard does not call for pronounced withers, and I question your supposition that 'less pronounced' withers will cause this catastrophe of falling on the forehand. I don't believe that the KC has stated no wither at all :) It is simply taking out words which will encourage some to go 'over the top' as in angulation.

I see plenty of GSDs in rescue MM, having worked with our local rescue for over 20 years. Some are average, some are not, and more are leaning towards Intn'l type and I use type quite loosely. It is something that I think we will see more of if current standard isn't changed.

I would disagree totally with you that people seeking a pet don't bother with google. I did, and many, many other people I know do. Many of course do go to freeads, but anyone who researches their breed even moderately will go to the internet. Sweeping generalisations again I'm afraid.

> I've seen a good number of high scoring dogs that are still bred from & none belong to known show kennels.

Well whoever is breeding them are totally irresponsible, but please don't imply that it is only an elite few in the world of GSDs who health test, as that is simply not the case.

The breeder that I got my dogs from has not had a litter for the last two years. She has chosen not to do so because of the economic climate. So many dogs are being given up very readily when homes are repossessed, jobs are lost etc. A very responsible attitude to my mind, but I see showline breeders haven't put the brakes on. I have no idea whether or not she will DNA test in future or has done since my dogs were born. My dogs were born before the tests were available, and happily neither are dwarfs.

I have been to both GSD only training clubs, but now go to a mixed training club, I prefer the training methods and ambience of a mixed club. One of them does agility, and that too is mixed.

Long Coats : They may be keeping them separate, and from the way the registry is operated that makes sense. The point is they were once acceptable and are about to become acceptable again so the SV must have their reasons for their change of mind. Yes, the correct long coat (long stock coat) is required (I've yet to see a longcoat without an undercoat, but I'm sure you have).

To address your last point, I didn't quite understand the particular mention of Long Coats in there (still don't). Is there a reason for the specification of long coat. Are there not standard coat GSDs which are working obedience (non VPG)?

> I see plenty of GSDs in rescue MM, having worked with our local rescue for over 20 years. Some are average, some are not, and more are leaning towards Intn'l type and I use type quite loosely. It is something that I think we will see more of if current standard isn't changed.

A local GSD rescue ?

> Well whoever is breeding them are totally irresponsible, but please don't imply that it is only an elite few in the world of GSDs who health test, as that is simply not the case.

I know of several "pet"breeders who actually think the higher the score the better the hips

> A very responsible attitude to my mind, but I see showline breeders haven't put the brakes on.

How do you know this ?? How many show breeders do you know personally ? I know a good few(on both sides of the"divide")& instead of breeding three or more litters they are yet to have breed a single puppy in the last year & all have people on their waiting lists.

> The point is they were once acceptable and are about to become acceptable again so the SV must have their reasons for their change of mind.

It's called money the more dogs registered the more money the SV receive QED

> To address your last point, I didn't quite understand the particular mention of Long Coats in there (still don't). Is there a reason for the specification of long coat. Are there not standard coat GSDs which are working obedience (non VPG)?

They are very few & far between-how many Obedience shows do you go to in a year ? 20 ? 30 ? 40 ? Why so many LCs ? because the definition of a working dog in many Obedience people's minds is a LC from parents that do Obedience.

> Why is that MM?

The same reason that many puppies of many breeds are not firmed up behind until the are well over 6 months of age. Nothing to do with HD or the topline type-go to the UK club's shows at Newark & look ate the rear movement of any of the classes, but especially the puppies, due to not being in hard dry condition their rear movement if all over the place. The bigger the breed the longer the time it takes for puppies to muscle up. With your long experience in dogs I thought you would have noticed this

> My point is that the standard does not call for pronounced withers,

It doesn't now it did last year !!

>but especially the puppies, due to not being in hard dry condition their rear movement if all over the place.

I don't believe that what I am seeing in youngsters today is solely down to firming up in the hocks.  1 see dogs 2, 3 years in age that are considerably loose in the hindquarters and know of two show line youngsters that can't walk on concrete because their hind leg middle claws are being worn to the quick.  :-( Even some in the GSD show fraternity admit they have over angulated dogs (both sides) and unsoundness in their youngsters.

> I know of several "pet"breeders who actually think the higher the score the better the hips

Are you suggesting that " several pet breeders" have gone to the trouble of having their dogs hip scored but the vet involved did not explain the scoring system?

> Are you suggesting that " several pet breeders" have gone to the trouble of having their dogs hip scored but the vet involved did not explain the scoring system?

Yep, they all use the same vet who never tries to explain the plates as they are only interested in the money ! This is a veterinary practice who have been featured on TV as being state of the art too !! They just take their dogs & collect them & the vet sends out the results when they arrive. Which is why I use a vet who has over 30 years experience of doing X rays for hip scoring & who will give a very good estimate of the score, along with advice about breeding & future care !

> solely down to firming up in the hocks

Can you explain how a joint can be"firmed up" it is either correctly or incorrectly formed & unless operated on there is nothing that can be done to correct the joint

Joints are controlled by muscles and tendons. If the muscles are slack then the joint will not be held firmly and will be 'wobbly'. Tone up the muscle and the joint becomes 'firmer'.

> My point is that the standard does not call for pronounced withers,

It doesn't now it did last year !!

I'm not referring to the KC standard, but the SV standard which is what I quoted earlier in the thread. I would have thought that you would be pleased that in this respect the KC are matching the SV standard :)

> A local GSD rescue ?

No, but sadly a predominance of GSDs , staffs and border collies over the last few years.

> I know of several "pet"breeders who actually think the higher the score the better the hips

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. However, as I said before, don't tar everyone with the same brush or imply that it is the norm. Our different experiences prove that.

> How do you know this ??

Mostly by the litters they have for sale/planned/due. Don't know any personally. But good for the ones that you know.

> They are very few & far between-how many Obedience shows do you go to in a year ? 20 ? 30 ? 40 ? Why so many LCs ? because the definition of a working dog in many Obedience people's minds is a LC from parents that do Obedience.

Very few. That's why I wasn't challenging you, simply asking the question. Perhaps LC then are particularly good at obedience :)
That statement does illustrate how what people 'see' whether in the show ring or internet, is transformed into an idea (type) that is correct.

> It's called money the more dogs registered the more money the SV receive QED

I am surprised that the organisation held up by the showline people virtually as nothing short of 'gods' could ever stoop so low. Perhaps they have another reason that you have not yet surmised?

SWR Fernsehen: nursing Shepherd - From the end of a German legend!

This was a TV programme that was shown in Germany last March, I think it was....anyhow it's no longer on the net but this is the jest of it -

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.fernsehen.ch/detail/Pflegefall%2BSch%25E4ferhund%253F/3494910212.html&ei=3N6SSuzZEZjajQe6kpXgDQ&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=6&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLumbosakralstenose%2BDer%2BDeutsche%2BSch%25C3%25A4ferhund%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

I am glad to see that Germany too are recognising the breed has problems. The health problems that the international show line supporters continually argue against is becoming quite a worry in Germany I believe, along with a reduction in the longevity of GSDs there. I have read a couple of articles, by the veterinary profession (in Germany) that suggest that this is becoming the case. I would imagine (let me be clear, imagine - not know) that the Germanic type is the dominant if not sole type except for working in Germany. Perhaps they are seeing the actual problems before we are due to that proliferation. Just thinking aloud.

Hopefully this link will let people see that it is not just the UK that have identified a problem and it isn't just 'the KC victimising GSDs', it is publicly recognised now even in the breed's homeland.

It is so sad..

I don't think this is the KC, I think they are acting on BIG concerns from mainland Europe since the mid 90's and despite changing the SV standard to the straight back, nothing has changed for the structure of the breed.  :-(

Show lines are the dominant sector in Germany.....

This is a German article with part translated. Have fun translating the rest...it is interesting!

Cauda equina syndrome: The constant pain Compression of nerve structures by restricting the eddy channel and the intermediate eddy holes due to knöchernen and/or bindegewebigen accumulations. From this neurological Defizienzen follows such as lameness of the Hintergliedmaßen, problems in the controlling of the urine and excrement paragraph, as well as constantly strong pain for the animal. The syndrome concerns the range between that 5. - 7. Lendenwirbel and the Kreuzbein. Causally for the Cauda equina syndrome should be apart from other factors the figure of the DSH with the well-known sloping back, a characteristic, which has a very great importance still in the breed of the DSH.

http://www.wuff.at/artikel.php?artikel_id=285

I'm no expert on this as I am sure will become apparant.:-) But can this not all be simplified.

If I'm perfectly honest I don't like the look of the sloped backed/roached (whichever name we wish to use) GSD's.
Personally I feel they look deformed, but this is where my opinion ends because as the saying goes you should not judge a book by it's cover, there is no denying that the sloped back dogs work much better, perform much better as working dogs, they can out manoever the English 'straight backed' GSD any day of the week. So I believe there is a need in the working world for these dogs, my own common sense tells me that for a GSD to manoeuvre as the sloped backed do so well, in time damage to the hips etc would be less than on an English GSD.

However, there it stops, IMO apart from the working world these characteristics have no place creeping into the show world and certainly not in the pet world, a dog with this design walking on normal pavements and doing normal dog walks I would have thought would cause extreme pressure to the dogs frame, it's never going to reach the speeds and use those back legs in any other life other than the working world.

So to simplify the sloped back IMO needs to be left alone, it has a place in this world in the working world and should be left be, and I don't understand the outcries, it's a great working dog. Can it not just be left at this?

But, I do agree it has no place anywhere else.

I think it's important to be clear that the GSD has many divides. ;-)

To keep it simple in the UK, we have the German showline, the old English Alsatian lines, and the German working lines. 

I usually don't bring the hardcore Alsatian English straight backed dogs into it because to me they are just not a working dog and there is not much worth saying.   

MM posted a lovely example of working lines - Nick von den Wölfen.

The topic on this discussion is the German showline as a result of a recent article in the UK that said the dog's structure caused no health issues.

The GSD is a working dog breed - foremost and utmost, in shows or anywhere else.  If the dog cannot live a life as a pet walking on normal pavements and doing normal dog activities then it is quite simply not a working dog and could never perform in the working world. 

Based on increasing evidence from the veterinary field and Germany, it is believed that the excessively falling or roach back is partially or wholly contributing to health issues in the spine.  Things have just gone too far for this sector of the breed.