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Topic Dog Boards / Showing / Training a Messed Up Min Pin
- By Crespin Date 10.08.09 13:19 UTC
Ok, well now that Reba's cast has been off for a few weeks (three I think) I have started training her for the show ring.  Everything seems to be coming along great, except one thing.
I put her on the table (breed shown on the table) and she will stand, back legs placed wonderfully, but her "broken leg" she will stick straight out as a board infront of her!  I think she has been conditioned that when she is on the table, the vet needs to see her leg, so she will now just hold it out for them!  Last night, I just put her foot down, said stand, and gave a cookie, still holding onto her foot while it is on the table. 
Her stand on the ground is amazing, couldnt ask for more out of a hardly trained puppy.  But the table! 
So basically I am sharing a funny haha, but if anyone has advice, it would be greatly appreciated. 
Joys of Miniature Pinschers.  They are just too smart!!! 
- By tatty-ead [gb] Date 10.08.09 15:26 UTC
Glad Reba is doing so well, two ideas:-
start her on a table top but only about 8-10inches off floor and gradually make it higher - or/and - , put a different surface on the table, exam tables at vets are similar surface to those for show exam, maybe a piece of carpet or similar may help.
Chris
- By Goldiemad [gb] Date 10.08.09 21:25 UTC
What about using a clicker. It might take a bit of patience, but if you stand by her ignoring her and her raised leg, hopefully at some point she will get tired/fed up and put the foot down, if only to fidget. At that precise moment you could click and reward her, she sounds very bright so hopefully she would soon work out what was required. Obviously if you have not used a clicker with her, you would have to condition her to it first.
- By Crespin Date 10.08.09 21:33 UTC

> Obviously if you have not used a clicker with her, you would have to condition her to it first.


I think I would have to train myself to use a clicker, as I have never used one.  But very good ideas from both posts, I will try anything, as I am just so happy that the broken leg did not affect my little girl in terms of showing her.  Everyone said "well, she will at least make a brood bitch, if nothing else" or "there she has now turned into your pet stock". 
I am wanting to enter her in a show coming up (Sept 11-13) and want to get her ready.  Normally, I would have worked more with her by now, but with her leg, I couldnt ask her to walk or stand like a show dog.  Things will take just a little longer, is all. 
I dont know if I found it funny, or frustrating when she put her leg up.  I hope she quickly learns that she needs to have it down, and stand nice.  Lots of treats for when she does something good, trying to ignore the bad.  But I will read up on clicker training, so I dont do that wrong.  Havent used it, so I am bound to make mistakes as well.  LOL
- By marion [gb] Date 10.08.09 21:59 UTC
What part of the country are you? there are several things you could try. If you pm me I can list them for you, can also put you in touch with one of my Juniors who is an excellent handler(made his dog up when he was only 14 yrs old), his mother is a good handler too.
- By Crespin Date 10.08.09 22:57 UTC
Im in Southern Ontario, Canada. 
- By marion [gb] Date 11.08.09 09:14 UTC
OK a bit far to commute as I am in Bedfordshire England!! However here are a couple of things I have used in my classes-
1)When placing your dog on the table, position both hands gently round front at shoulders/top of legs,lift about 2cm up from table, with slight pressure from 'little fingers' position front legs on table repeating the stand stay command firmly but not harshly. Then position back legs (I would place them individually for accuracy.
2) If problem persists, make a 'soft' block or roll and position in front of legs as soon as you have the position you want, it need to be close but not touching and high enough that dog cannot lift leg onto or over it. Whenever you get a couple of seconds 'stand' reward with either titbit or praise(not too excitedly though) vary the reward so that you are not creating a set pattern of expectation. Practise for approx 5 mins each a.m. and p.m. gradually extending the time you expect your dog to stand. Hope it helps,I don't mind if you contact me directly if you wish. I will try and do a couple of photos to illustrate if you like.
- By freelancerukuk [de] Date 11.08.09 09:37 UTC
Corrie,
Sorry, this made me giggle. Reba is clearly very bright and, as you say, has probably been conditioned to stick her front paw out on the table by being told what a good girl she is  to do so by the vet etc..

Often if you lift the opposite back paw to the front paw the dog will put that front paw down. Get some very high value treats, slightly lift Reba's opposite back paw and the minute her front paw goes down drop the back paw and if all four paws are on table for a millisecond praise profusely and reward. Timing is crucial though and all paws must be on the table. If it works reintroduce the "stand" command and make sure it is paired in her head with four paws on table and reward.

The only other suggestion is to put a rubber mat surface on the floor and then lift her onto it and see if she'll stand properly, if she does reward and praise profusely- obviously you want to recondition her into associating being lifted onto a rubber surface and standing on all four paws, with high value reward and the "stand" command. If she does you could try putting the mat onto something a bit higher and again lifting her onto it and gradually building up the height.  It's important that the surface is as similar as possible to a judging/ grooming table.

Good luck.
- By Crespin Date 11.08.09 11:59 UTC
Had a bit of a training session last night, and she seemed to do quite well. I dont have a clicker, so I just clicked my tongue, when she was right, and gave a treat quickly. 
I have been placing her like you said, Freelancerukuk, and all is well, until I take my hand off her, so I will try keeping my hand on her chest longer. 
This will be the third dog I trained for the show ring, and I just dont remember this much issue with a stand before!  Mind you, I have never had a dog with a broken leg before Reba either.  I am wanting to get her to the point that I have the other dogs too, Sonny and Cher.  They will do a perfect, solid as a rock stand, on the table if I just touch their collars.  I think it looks so amazing, compared to the other handlers that will man handle their dogs into a stand.  Cher has gotten to the point if I try to hold her like that, then she will fight every inch, but if I touch her collar, then she is rock solid.  But I do know that takes time and training, and it was done young on Cher (Sonny was older at 3 years when he was trained this)
I am doing training throughout the day, and at Reba's dinner time.  Hopefully that will be enough training, and that she wont pull her leg up when at a show!
I am going to try doing the back opposite leg thing you described as well.  See if that helps. 
I am just glad, that her stand on the ground is absolutely great!  I will also work on her, from the ground, and then try and transfer it on the table. 
I just wish, at times like this, Min Pins werent so smart!
- By Moonmaiden Date 11.08.09 12:59 UTC
You can get clickers on-line. Karen Pryor's I clickers are really good, they have a soft click & really nice to hold.

Training is really quite simple to young puppies. Give her some 1 on 1 time. Have some really nice treats(I use liver cake, hot dog sausage, cheese cut into small pieces)ready. Hold the treat just about her head & when all four paws are on the ground & she is standing, click immediately & throw the treat. Repeat & you will soon find that she will work out that she gets a click & a treat when she does a specific behaviour & will start doing the behaviour(standing still in this case)before being offered the treat. I would have her on the floor at this stage. Once she is standing with four paws on the ground before being offered a treat start adding the command-stand or whatever you use. You can then start to ask her for the behaviour by using the command & click & treating as soon as she does it.

If you want to get the timing of the click right. Take a ball & the clicker to somewhere the dogs aren't & throw the ball in the air & click as it hits the ground. It doesn't take long to get the clicker sync'd to the ball landing.

We taught a puppy Jack Russell to sit on greeting in 30 secs !
Topic Dog Boards / Showing / Training a Messed Up Min Pin

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