I have just been reading about the allocation of CC's on the KC website and they have serious concerns about double handling of GSD's - what is double handling? 

Assistance ringside.

I experienced one show personally in Europe where the double handling was shocking, no end of toys being thrown into the ring/ Squeaked, calling the dog, clapping, anything to gain the dogs attention to give the alert look some breeds are required  to have.

Just to add this was not GSD judging.

ETA The standard of handling in the ring IMO was extremely poor  even though this was quite a big champ show! And not a novice class either.

There is also discreet double handling (also not allowed but doesn't disturb in the same way), for instance you can have handler and dog inside ring, and a friend or family member outside the ring holding a piece of food, making small noises to attract the dog, or carrying a toy the dog likes, and ensuring the dog can see this.

Many thanks for the explanations - understand now.

There is also discreet double handling (also not allowed but doesn't disturb in the same way), for instance you can have handler and dog inside ring, and a friend or family member outside the ring holding a piece of food, making small noises to attract the dog, or carrying a toy the dog likes, and ensuring the dog can see this.

Surely this never happens??!!!!! :-O

Seems like the good ol' GSD supporters take the rap for everything yet again!  If you own a prick-eared breed, chances are you've double-handled at some point! 

We've had cheese/liver/squeaky toys etc thrown past us for years........my guess is the KC now just want to throw the book at us!!! :-D

> Surely this never happens??!!!!! :-o
>
> Seems like the good ol' GSD supporters take the rap for everything yet again!  If you own a prick-eared breed, chances are you've double-handled at some point! 
>
>

if the breed standard says alert, surely its the handlers responsibility do show the dog top its best advantage rather that having a partner run, whistle, squeek and yell outside the ring?

if the breed standard says alert, surely its the handlers responsibility do show the dog top its best advantage rather that having a partner run, whistle, squeek and yell outside the ring?

Of course.

I was at Leeds Ch Sh one year showing a Newfoundland & whilst walking to the ring to take him in I was accosted by the Senior Steward, who grabbed my pontail & shouted at me to stop doubling handling the leading GSD dog. Apart from the fact that the GSDs being shown were not the type I owned or ever handled & that the GSD ring was the other side of the BIS stands,which meant I couldn't see the GSD ring & no one or dog in the ring could see me had obviously not been realised by the Senior Steward, as he continued to berate me after I prised his hand from my hair, about Kennelling Clubbing me for double handling immediately. Fortunately one of the Group judges was walking past & knew me & quite sternly putting the steward in his place.

The strange thing is that I have never needed to double handler any of my dogs nor needed to have any dog I've handled to be double handled, for some strange reason I actually bothered to train the dogs to show themselves on my command, which is quite useful when the next door ring handlers lob large chunks of meat into your ring as you are trying to gait your dog !!

Seems like the good ol' GSD supporters take the rap for everything yet again!  If you own a prick-eared breed, chances are you've double-handled at some point!

HUGE difference when it is done quietly without ruining things for anyone else -and I've never seen that done in GSDs. I'd just as much like to see the Boxer exhibitors banned from throwing food everywhere, for a start it ruins the ring for the breed in it afterwards. It's not about the breed, it's about rules and mainly general manners. The worst case of double handling I've ever see was in Laekenois -not in this country I hasten to add.

> HUGE difference when it is done quietly without ruining things for anyone else -and I've never seen that done in GSDs. I'd just as much like to see the Boxer exhibitors banned from throwing food everywhere, for a start it ruins the ring for the breed in it afterwards. It's not about the breed, it's about rules and mainly general manners

EXACTLY 

Dakko was a 'Prick-eared' breed and we never had to chuck things around or double handle him from outside to get him to look alert - he did it naturally with just some treats in the handlers hand and saying his name!

My boxers and Cavaliers, have always, and still do... stand and show - on their own - at the end of a lead...but it's quite remarkable how much titbits, liver and bonios you can collect after a day at the boxer ringside

> but it's quite remarkable how much titbits, liver and bonios you can collect after a day at the boxer ringside <IMG alt=eek src="/images/eek.gif">

Isnt that the truth! 

Double handling happens here all the time.  But it goes a wee bit further than making your own dog look good.  Some people will actually do things to make all the others (except the ones they want to win) look horrible.  I have seen people drop things (when standing ringside you know it was on purpose by how it was dropped) and trying to spook the dogs in the ring from the loud noise.  Or coughing, or such, just to get the dog upset. 

HUGE difference when it is done quietly without ruining things for anyone else -and I've never seen that done in GSDs. I'd just as much like to see the Boxer exhibitors banned from throwing food everywhere, for a start it ruins the ring for the breed in it afterwards. It's not about the breed, it's about rules and mainly general manners. The worst case of double handling I've ever see was in Laekenois -not in this country I hasten to add.

Ah but there you have it, alot of today's competitors/exhibitors don't have good manners and that's in ALL breeds.

As I've previously indicated when it has come to 'bash the Boxer exhibitor' (the good ol' Boxer exhibitors take the rap for everything yet again...LOL) as we are an easy target.
Because 'some' Boxer exhibitors are inconsiderate when showing their dogs.
Not that I throw bait in the ring so please DON'T tar all the Boxer exhibitors with the same brush!!
Yes I use bait - the non crumbly sort and it stays in the bait bag or the hand or even my dog/s eat it - I don't pay to feed other people's dogs....can't afford to LOL.
Well unless I'm feeling generous outside the ring and my friend's dogs are offered a piece of liver/liver cake etc...after asking the owners if they are allowed it :)

How can sqeaking toys, coughing, calling a dogs name be done quietly?
I've been in the Boxer ring at an open show when double handling has taken place (our experienced steward was gobsmacked and had only seen/noticed it in GSD rings)....so it goes on in alot of breeds but it's just that GSD exhibtors are so blatantly obvious/noisy when doing it...perhaps they need to practice the art of 'stealth' or discreet double handling?
Even seen when some devious exhibitors have tried to 'nobble' the competition by making strange noises, dragging a chair across the floor in a hall etc if they've picked up
that a dog is sound reactive..or even dropping bait infront of a fellow competitors dog or behind near it's rear legs (and this wasn't in the Boxer ring but have seen it happen there too). When you've been showing for some years you start to notice these things, whereas when you are a newbie you don't realise what's going on.

I think the problem is that the new/novice exhibitor comes in and see's the more experienced/bigger kennels handling in this way and think it's ok to do so.
They may not even realise that it's against the KC rules.
Perhaps we all have a lot to answer for? Perhaps the true art of a being good dog handler has been lost?
As we've all become lazy and gone for the easy/quick way of training a dog for show.

As if everyone around you is 'baiting' it's pretty darn hard to get a dog that doesn't concentrate well to focus on you as a handler...they are more interested
in the food around them..so you join the 'club' as it seems the easier route..when perhaps if you had the right skills you'd know how to get your dog's attention without the need for food or double handling.
Perhaps this is the skill that has been lost over the years without realising it and those newbies that came in to showing didn't learn/didn't want to learn the art from the 'masters' in their chosen breeds and just wanted the win and not the knowledge of showcraft and subtle handling so didn't learn the art from the more experienced handlers and as they have passed on their expert handling skills/knowledge have gone too without being passed from generation to generation.

So to all you newbies out there don't lose those handling gems and learn learn learn from the older exhbitors, those who handle well without resorting or needing to resort to double handling or baiting (big grin) and you may just be able to make the grade as a 'expert' handler that excels at their craft now wouldn't that be something to aspire to and pass on in the years to come?  :)

Not that I throw bait in the ring so please DON'T tar all the Boxer exhibitors with the same brush!!
Yes I use bait - the non crumbly sort and it stays in the bait bag or the hand or even my dog/s eat it - I don't pay to feed other people's dogs....can't afford to LOL.

Very glad to hear it :) but it's still true that I've personally never found food all over a ring that has been used by ANY other breed but Boxers previously, so sadly it seems like there are quite a few that do it. (Or even with just one or two, it's enough, isn't it.)

How can sqeaking toys, coughing, calling a dogs name be done quietly?

It can't! The discreet double handling I was talking about doesn't involve noise of any sort whatsoever. That I can live with!

> I think the problem is that the new/novice exhibitor comes in and see's the more experienced/bigger kennels handling in this way and think it's ok to do so.
>

Exactly..............good post BC.

I've seen most things now ( I hope) the 10ft lead...the bonio flying and now it's the 'prayer mat'.

I do recall quite clearly when the 'MFI style' of handling Boxers arrived in the UK...I called it that because I watched the handler self-assemble the dog before my eyes. Every bit of the dog was placed in the right order even if it didn't usually sit there....hocks were turned in - feet out ...up with the chain and then ....launch the liver :-) This sculpted shape looked impressive...it won..and the rest is history. The fact that the dog didn't move like that and when it came to rest again it had to be re-assemble..didn't seem to matter.

Oh well...you've got to laugh....it takes these handlers quite some time to do the 'kitchen fitting' whereas teaching the dog to strike the pose and then in the ring say 'stand' takes a second :-)

At least this kind of sculpted handling doesn't lend it's self to double handling...once their dog is in place ...nothing must be allowed to move!!!

I never understand the throwing bit, if we had thrown anything for any of ours we would have been dragged out of line by the dog as it went to get whatever had been thrown and enjoy a good munch  :-D

On our very first show my sister ran out of treats and ask for some from my mum, we were disqualified for double handling, my sister was so annoyed with herself luckly the judge knew us from ring craft and gave us a run down on the do's and dont's, now my sister wont even let my mum by the ring so that she cant put her off.

We have also found that people throw bits of food all over the place not usually in our breed but if it happens in the ring next to us food orientated Sophie will run with her nose to the ground.

> Because 'some' Boxer exhibitors are inconsiderate when showing their dogs.
> Not that I throw bait in the ring so please DON'T tar all the Boxer exhibitors with the same brush!!
> Yes I use bait - the non crumbly sort and it stays in the bait bag or the hand or even my dog/s eat it - I don't pay to feed other people's dogs....can't afford to LOL.

I agree, i use bait but not once have I thrown it around the ring, my dogs would run straight for it instead of standing still lol
But it is true there are alot of people who do throw things around, at a club show a handler for a famous kennel had a ball and was rolling it forward and it went underneath the dog i was handling (brother to my boy) so I just rolled it back under her dog and ruined her dogs stand as judge came as the dog turned round, only fair I think (no other dogs were behind her)

Must admit i was a bit scared coming out of the ring incase they shouted at me for it lol but my friend said "well done, its about time someone did that" lol

> On our very first show my sister ran out of treats and ask for some from my mum, we were disqualified for double handling,

Who disqualified her ? The judge cannot neither can the show management-only the KC can disqualify a dog from a placing

The judge I think..... we asked for some advice on how to improve what we were doing as we had never done it before and thats when we were told. It was only a small open show and its not a life ban or anything it was just with that dog in those classes, im not really bothered about it, a lesson well learnt, we shouldnt have done it.

We get lots of squeaky toys and funny voices used in my breed, and it's definitely NOT a prick eared breed. Haven't seen much evidence of double handling, at least not blatant, but it's still important for our floppy eared dogs to put their ears up (at least as much as they can!) as it totally changes the expression how they hold their ears sometimes!

> I'd just as much like to see the Boxer exhibitors banned from throwing food everywhere,

I have a freestanding breed whose head would be on the ground the whole time (including on the move) if we didn't use bait.

Though I think bait should only ever go from hand to dogs mouth, and should never be thrown!  Chances are if it was thrown the dogs nose would be on the ground again.

My breed is also prick eared, and with the hope of a tidbit there is no trouble keeping them alert, and as has been said training will ensure the dog knows what is expected, with the food as an incentive.

I show our Siberian Huskies (a prick-eared breed) and I've never really seen the point of double handling. Apart from the fact that it is incredibly annoying to exhibitors of other breeds in adjoining rings, I don't see any positive benefits from it. When I am in the showring with a dog, the very last thing I would want would be some wally distracting the dog from outside. I want the dog focussed on me and the judge not on something outside the ring.