my brother in law has a freind who has bought a puppy pitbull from another pal.
got that lol.
the thing is the guy who has the 10 week old male puppy is now looking to teach him naughty things and my brother in law wants to take the puppy from him (pay him back the money he paid to buy him)to give this puppy the best chance in life.
NOW my worry is that he will ovbiously get attached to the pup and i know he is responsible and has asked me what i would do.
im asking you guys,how (if its illegal)do people get away with breeding these dogs?
is it illegal to OWN  a pitbull or to BREED?
can he be arrested for walking the dog on the street/park even muzzled and on a lead?
what advise would you give barrie?being a 20 year old lad who HAS  his head screwed on correctly and just wants to help the puppy free'd from a life of being mistreated?
i have no idae on what can happen or what will happen can someone please advise me on what to tell him.
many thanx.

he was first told the puppy was a staff but a lady approched him while holding the pup and said its a pitbull she used to breed them,so his pal told him the truth the puppy is full pitbull.

It is illegal to both own and breed pitbulls. There is an index of exempted dogs, but owners cannot voluntarily put their dogs on this. First the dog has to be seized by the police, the owner may be charged, the dog then needs to be neutered, microchipped and tattood and may be given back to the owner provided the owner guarantees to keep it on a lead and muzzled while in public, secure at home and insured (which may be very expensive). Best tell him to steer clear :-)

so theres no hope for the poor puppy in all this then?
and thank you.x

If this puppy is indeed a pitbull - and bear in mind that pitbulls have been illegal in this country since 1991 - then it is more than likely that the parents will be siezed as well as the only LEGAL pitbulls in this country are rather elderly neutered dogs!

It could of course be a very badly-bred staffy - bred to look like a pitbull.

It's illegal to breed, sell or give away pitbulls, so the law has definitely been broken several times.

all he wants to do is do right by the poor pup.
i can see his point.hes only a puppy,so what advise should i give him to do about the puppy?steer well clear yes but what about the baby?

> what about the baby?

Again - steer well clear. There is nothing any law abiding citizen can do for this pup other than call the police or RSPCA. The pup will be seized and kennelled at a critical point in it's socialisation, your BIL will have to decide if this is better or worse for the pup than living in it's current home.

No, but if one's toddler was repeatedly vomiting one would call the doctor, not post on an internet forum which is, after all, the equivalent of asking advice from total strangers at the bus stop.

Actually that isn't strictly true, as the DLO will not assess a dog to see if its a "section 1 pit bull type" under 9 months of age, as the dog doesnt grow into measurement and proportion until about then, so cant be reliably measured earlier..
This is because, in the past, they have assessed dogs as "not type" and when they got older, they dog grew into type, and they police had to reverse their own decision.

S you will have 9 months to keep your head down, get the dog perfectly socialized and trained.
It can never ever even look at anyone the wrong way.
This includes going to training classes.
But avoid KC registered classes, as the KC insurance exempts 'section 1 pit bull types', so if the trainer is savvy with a suspicious eye, the wont accept your dog.

Then you can do all this work, and it can still get seized on the street, then kenneled and assessed under the law, and it may or may not get returned to you as an exempted dog under section 4b.
The success of your dog being exempted and returned comes down to three points:
- the dog is completely friendly
- the owner has a superb law abiding exemplary reputation
- the owner lives in a respectable area: if he is a hoody who lives in a London Housing estate, for example, the odds are against the dog getting returned to him.

The advantage of the exmpetion process under the London Met Police area now is, unless the dog or owner are problematic already, the dog wont get seized and kennelled anymore.
Since this year, the Met have decided to save money on their kennel fees and have realized that long term kenneling has caused behavior deterioration with some dogs, so will now let the dog stay at home during the legal process.
Dog could still be seized at the end of it, of course.

So, if the owner is a nice lad, doesn't wear a hoody, gets on with his neighbors, and lives in rural Norfolk, for example, with a friendly dog, he might do well.

Of course, the key is to keep a low profile and reduce 'evidence' and suspicion, which includes not posting statements on the open net, admitting to ownership of a pit bull type.

personally, i wouldnt go thru any of this.

No, but if one's toddler was repeatedly vomiting one would call the doctor, not post on an internet forum which is, after all, the equivalent of asking advice from total strangers at the bus stop.

Actually that isn't strictly true, as the DLO will not assess a dog to see if its a "section 1 pit bull type" under 9 months of age, as the dog doesnt grow into measurement and proportion until about then, so cant be reliably measured earlier..
This is because, in the past, they have assessed dogs as "not type" and when they got older, the dog grew into type, and they police had to reverse their own decision.

So you will have 9 months to keep your head down, get the dog perfectly socialized and trained.
It can never ever even look at anyone the wrong way.
This includes going to training classes.
But avoid KC registered classes, as the KC insurance exempts 'section 1 pit bull types', so if the trainer is savvy with a suspicious eye, the wont accept your dog.

Then you can do all this work, and it can still get seized on the street, then kenneled and assessed under the law, and it may or may not get returned to you as an exempted dog under section 4b.
The success of your dog being exempted and returned comes down to three points:
- the dog is completely friendly
- the owner has a superb law abiding exemplary reputation
- the owner lives in a respectable area: if he is a hoody who lives in a London Housing estate, for example, the odds are against the dog getting returned to him.

The advantage of the exemption process under the London Met Police area now is, unless the dog or owner are problematic already, the dog wont get seized and kennelled anymore.
Since this year, the Met have decided to save money on their kennel fees and have realized that long term kenneling has caused behavior deterioration with some dogs, so will now let the dog stay at home during the legal process.
Dog could still be seized at the end of it, of course.

So, if the owner is a nice lad, doesn't wear a hoody, gets on with his neighbors, and lives in rural Norfolk, for example, with a friendly dog, he might do well and not get noticed by the police or anyone interested in reporting him to the police.
He will always be worried though.

Of course, the key to that is to keep a low profile and reduce 'evidence' and suspicion, which includes not posting statements on the open net, admitting to ownership of a pit bull type.

Personally, i wouldnt go thru any of this.

PS - 2 other points to consider.

1. How much of this pup's critical socialization period has been screwed up already, storing up potential behaviour probs for the future which could risk seizure and jeopardize an assessment.

2. Does this guy own a 'pit bull type' at all, or is he one of your usual idiots that says so as a brag, when it 's only really a Staffie or obvious Staffie X? Has he, or your BIL, seen the parents?

> bear in mind that pitbulls have been illegal in this country since 1991

There should not be ANY pitbulls in this country as that would make them 18years old!!! very unlikely

Sad situation and as always the only one to lose in it all will be the puppy :(

just to add, after reporting a neighbour with a pitt the dangerous dog section came and took it away assessed it confirmed it was a pitt and gave it back with the stipulation it was muzzled when it was out and was registered with them.

There should not be ANY pitbulls in this country as that would make them 18years old!!! very unlikely

youd think so, wouldnt you.

but clearly the law hasn't worked (the DDA is an ass anyway), as their are more pit bulls, or should we say, in legal parlance, "pit bull types", in this country than ever.

people just ignore the law.
just as we have the harshest anti gun always in western countries, yet there have never been so many illegal guns on the streets.

you see them advertised everywhere know, under pseudonyms like American Staffie, Irish Staffie.
some people evenly openly advertise pits as pits.
I was speaking to my local DLO a few weeks ago, who raided a breeding kennels that had been operating openly selling pit bulls for some time.
The police cant keep up.

From the area where I live there are many who admit to their dogs being pitbulls.  Whether they truly are I'm not sure, they are extremely large, well muscled, strange headed Staffies if not.

we live in the country,havering atte bower.he lives with his parents who are very law abiding people who like all of us on here just love animals.
they would never be on the look out for a pit bull or type dog i mean they love my rotts but wouldnt own one.they have poodles and this puppy whatever breed is theyre concern.
im merly asking what can be done.this poor pup in a few months wold probably  end up being destroyed or chucked on a fence post cos the damage hes caused to him he thenm cant handle and then being destroyed.
barrie and the guy who has the dog now havent seen the parents.his other friend bought the dog and on hearing was illegal to own sold him on.the pup is coming on 11 weeks and has had as far as i know no harm done to him yet.hes a pup and hes not really interested in him til he gets bigger.
ive told barrie to steer clear and his answer to me is,you look into the little pups eyes and you walk away from his knowing fate.
please help me.
he's a nice kid studying accountacy settled in a relationship but doesnt wnt to get taken in by police.
i havent seen any pits in my area so either we dont have any or people are hiding them well.
i assume some posts have been delted as there are quotes to posts ive not seen.did i miss something?

the problem is tamara if the dog is reported, which i think could be a big possibility. he could face the fact of the dog being taken away and being destroyed.
if one of mine were at risk of that i would be terrified and if it did happen i dont think i would get over it.
it may be hard to give up the pup now, but it would be much harder when a lot of time and love have been invested in the pup.

It's a really hard one this.    I'm a bit bothered about Barrie's friend - do I understand that he's not interested in the pup at all now - or not until he gets older?  

As you say, the puppy is 11 weeks old, and a lovely puppy.   But not knowing what the temperament of the parents makes him a complete unknown quantity.   If he is just a rather badly bred staffy, he could develop into a wonderful dog with the right training.   If he is bred from illegal pitbull parents who have not been bred for temperament (or who have been bred for aggressive temperament) then Barrie could have a real problem dog on his hands once the puppy reaches maturity.    You have given the right advice - steer clear - or heartbreak ahead - but sadly, it looks as if Barrie is going to take him on.   If he does, he is going to have to do a heck of a lot of training/socialising to make this pup appear to be a badly-bred staffie who has good manners.

And run the risk of having him siezed by the police under the DDA if there is the slightest bit of bother :(   Not to mention the fact that other young men who might want to appear to be hard could try setting their dogs up against this one :(

Hello :) Have they given a reciept for the pup?? If they have it will be a bit harder to buy it back.

Ps I think these dogs are alright as long as they get the right owners!!

its so difficult.i know its a pit i know that.i dont know about receipt.and im not sure barrie is keen to tke the dog on himself now.all he wants is the best for the pup and now knowing about this pup so do i.
in this situation out of sight is not out of mind,its bloomin awful.
one thing i do know is i dont agree with the fact that if parents were nasty that it will inbuilt into pups always.
i know of a dog who's parents were guard dogs and you couldnt get near the sire but the male pup bought from this litter is the softest male over 3 now and is like a flippin teddy bear.and this dog is a very large breed.well large breed but hes a big boy lol.
i know pits were used for fighting and its in the blood but it doesnt have to be the way he is ill bet given the chance in the right hands these dogs would be no different than any other dog.
i think barrie now knows hes gotta stay well cler and hear no more about the pup.
this guy who has the pup isnt interested in the puppy pit he wants the adult pit to ...as you say ..walk around the street with.
barrie knows of him through a freind of a freind but apprently given the oportunity would sell the puppy to barrie if he offere him the money he paid for pup.
in my opinion the breeders need ashooting.dont give a dam about the dog the law peoples feelings only the money theyre getting. if i could get my hands on the names and addresses id report them in a flash but the guy who bought this pup named boo boo wont give over name or address through fear of it coming back on him.
apparently he's BEEN WARNED!!!
Id love to kill the circle you know,report breeder and stop the whole thing happeneing again.
but how can you.

Good luck anyway!!

one thing i do know is i dont agree with the fact that if parents were nasty that it will inbuilt into pups always.
i know of a dog who's parents were guard dogs and you couldnt get near the sire but the male pup bought from this litter is the softest male over 3 now and is like a flippin teddy bear.and this dog is a very large breed.well large breed but hes a big boy lol.


you may be right on this point - its not always guaranteed the bad temperament will be passed down, but the likelihood is strong.
the example you give might not be like for like, as if the dogs concerned were guard dogs, that can just be a trained instinct, and not a behaviour problem.
for example, police dogs are actually very friendly, but become protection dogs on command - on and off switch. (the police wont accept an aggressive shepherd for training)
and many bitches are maternally instinctively protective of their pups, but fine in all other ways.

whereas some people raise dogs to be aggressive then use them as breeding machines churning out pups in dark back room or outhouses.
this could be a risk in your case.
although if the pup is massively socialised, especially between critical periods 3 to 16 weeks, you may avoid or negate or lessen this - but it doesnt sound like you have control over this at present.

> whereas some people raise dogs to be aggressive then use them as breeding machines churning out pups in dark back room or outhouses.

This still doesn't increase the risk of inherited aggression. You are still talking about raising a dog to be aggressive, as in raising a dog to guard. I don't believe that this develops into a hereditary trait. Mostly it is still a case of how the animal is raised.

Still, I don't know where I would stand on the issue of this puppy. Taking his chance in a loving home that would raise him with good manners and socialisation must surely be better than leaving him to his fate. However, if it were me, would I want to be taking on a pit bull?
If the family (not the lad, I think that is a bad idea) were in agreement to take the pup on, then have him neutered immediately and advise the police what they had done, perhaps that could work. I don't think the police or the courts are quite as heavy as they used to be, and if everthing is put 'up front' they might have it accepted and registered.  I just don't know.

i mean the mum is aggressive due to growing up mentally and emotionally stunted herself, due to lifestyle. then passing onto pups.

obviously, we dont know if this is the case here

> one thing i do know is i dont agree with the fact that if parents were nasty that it will inbuilt into pups always.
>

Here are some traits of a typical pit bull
Animal aggression. Animal aggression, especially dog aggression is common with the breed and should be considered normal
Highly intelligent. Their energy for learning new things is almost unstoppable.
High Energy.
Taken from here

Just imagine a high energy, inteligent, animal agressive, powerfull dog, from unknown, illegal, parentage :(

>Id love to kill the circle you know,report breeder and stop the whole thing happeneing again.

but how can you.
The only way to do that is to let authorities know about the puppies that are being produced and hope the authorities can track down the breeders. In this case, the current owner of the pup, IMO, needs reporting, he is obviously not a good owner (going on the fact he has an illegal breed and is teaching it 'naughty' things).

your so right.

Just on another note I have a dog of unknown parentage - taken on at 12 weeks due to her owner trying to drown her, strangle her and shoot her on various occasions - he then killed himself and I rescued the pup. 

I say unknown parentage - I know where the pup came from and I now know the man who bred her owned/owns a mixture of pet bred Staffie and Pit Bulls - he said he'd have her back, we said no...he is known to shoot his breeding bitches when they can't have anymore pups.

So anyway what i'm trying to say is I have no idea whether my now 6 yr old dog is a staffie or a staffie x Pit bull (she is taller than a normal Staff and doesn't have the typical head of a staff).  But my girl is a lovely dog who adores people and has got to be the easiest dog I have ever trained (we have many other breeds). So if this pup is taken on there is no reason why he can't be brought up to be a loving, friendly dog.

> So if this pup is taken on there is no reason why he can't be brought up to be a loving, friendly dog.

Fair enough, but nobody wil be able to take this pup on if it is reported to the autorities. The only way to stop illegal breeding, BYB and puppy farmers is to report them, not to rescue the innocent puppies and hope they turn into well behvaed, healthy dogs.
I have nothing against pit bulls as a breed, but they are illegal in this country and are exploited by the 'macho' brigade and prats who want weapon dogs and dog-figthing dogs or to make a quick buck form churning out litters.

>I have a dog of unknown parentage - taken on at 12 weeks due to her owner trying to drown her, strangle her and shoot her on various occasions - he then killed himself and I rescued the pup.

That is some feat for your pup to survive stanglation, drowing, muliple shootings and then end up in a good home, as a happy, good tempeement dog!!!!

The person where my dog is from was reported and apart from giving one person a 5 year ban on owning animals the other one carries on breeding - they don't seem to do follow ups and checks on the people even after bans have been imposed.  I do not agree with anyone breeding banned dogs or treating animals the way some people do.  If I had not rescued my girl I know exactly where she would have ended up and it wouldn't have been in a nice home unfortunately.

And yes i've worked pretty hard with my girl - 6 years later she is still terrified of bathrooms, will hide herself away at loud noises but is not fearful of men or women and great with kids.  And is fantastic at obedience....I wish I had actually competed with her.

it has come to my attention that it is belived by some if not most that this post i have started is a fake and that i am gathering answers for myself as i am the REAL owner of the puppy pibull.

i would just like to say for the record this post is genuine and i do not nor would i ever own a pitbull.
everything i have posted is  THE TRUTH .i knew putting the questions on here would answer barries worries and help him decide whats right and wrong himself.
how can i expect him to belive just me,i thought it be a good idea to ask some really genuine in the know dog owners the questions and let him see for himself its not just my opinion im giving but the cold hard truth.

just wanted to clear that up.i do not want anyone thinking for one: i have a pit bull

and two: i am that stupid that i would try to ask questions on here and be stupid enough to think you guys wouldnt know the truth!!!!

i cannot belive the front of some people this post is genuine!
and so am i!

I, for one, never even thought that this is a fake - and I'm generally pretty good at sorting out the fakes from the facts - I accepted, Tamara that you want to do the best you can, for the pup if possible, and for the young man in question.

Tamara,

There is nothing ungeniune about anything you've said, so if somehow you've got word that people think you are not, it's rubbish!   

thank you i appreciate your replys on this.its been mentioned on another thread by one member that i shouldnt have been mentioning the breed and that i knew it was all illegal ect so why post when i could have googled it.i pm'd this person asking if they meant me and my post ect and explaining what my reasons were they still say i should never have put it on a public forum!i explained my reasons and still apprently its unclear so what eles can i do.
i just wondered how many actually thought it was a scam.thank you again.

I've just finnished reading this whole post. Nowhere did I read anything that even vaguely suggested it being your pup, Tamara.

Many sensible suggestions and advice have been given already. Just one more thing to consider, when thinking about taking a puppy Pitbull in.
The pitbull breed  was designed for fighting in pits, for dogfights and betting for money. Thus they were bred to be sociable to people,
for the owners to be able to get hold of their dogs after the fights. And they were bred for having NO sign-language at all. Not much "fun" to watch two dogs giving each other calming, anti agression signals in the pit, for maybe 30 minutes, prior to the fight :-(

Owning a dog with none, or very little ability to comunicate with other dogs, isn't easy at the best, and a danger to any dog the pitbull meets when older, at the worst.
Any pup will be nice and cute, even a pitbull puppy. But it will eventually grow up to be what it was bred to be, a pitbull. Where I live they aren't illegal, unfortunatelly. Under no circumstances would I ever let my dogs come even close to a pitbull. A RR male got killed a few years ago here, by a pitbull. The RR tried to comunicate,the pitbull just got it done and over with before the RR had the time to understand what happened. Sad, but true.

In my personal opinion, the pitbull is a breed that really shouldn't excist, there is no need for a dog with those traits at all. It's evil humans that have bred a twisted breed of dog, and it so very very sad to think of the dogs that can't help what they are.

Karen