Hi, i wonder if anyone could give me advice on a problem with a stud fee. I mated my girl with a lovely boy and as she had previously missed we were delighted that the stud owners tried really hard to get her pregnant and mated her 6 times. It was agreed that we would pay £25.00 per mating (handling fee) and a £350.00 stud fee when the pups were 3 weeks old. at the time of collecting her i paid £150.00 handling fee and she went onto have a gorgeous litter.
when they were two and a half weeks old the stud owners contacted me saying the stud fee of £400.00 was now due, i replied saying on the contract it says £350.00 they said this was wrong and it was £400.00. i left it a day or two as the pups weren't three weeks old and the stud owner contacted me again and said i was right afterall and it was £350.00.
i didn't get this message as i was taken into hospital with mumps of all things. This left my hubby and son to hand rear a litter of 9 which they did beautifully. My son contacted the stud owner saying i was in hospital and they werre struggling with the pups but hopefully i would be home in a day or two and send payment. In the end i was in for 2 weeks, when i came home i posted the fee which they told me they didn't receive. They then told me if i didn't pay within 3 days they would refuse to send the reg detail of the stud. i immediatly sent another cheque which has now been cashed nearly ywo weeks ago.
they haven't sent the registration details and won't reply to my emails. I really feel really bad that payment was late for whatever reason and i have said i was sorry but i am at a total loss now what to do. I do still have the contract but nothing else. these people are on the Accredited breeder scheme if that makes any difference. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Im sorry to hear whats happened to you, this has never happened to me but, could you not get in contact with the Kennel Club as payment has been made and as there is a signed contract so legally they have to provide the details

How did you make the payment? Was it by cheque? If so, has it been cashed? If you have proof that they have the money then I would send them a copy and ask why they are saying that you haven't paid. If they still argue then I would have a word with the KC to see what info they can give you.

oops, just noticed that they have cashed the cheque I would send them a recorded letter asking for the documents. If they don't pass them over then I would threaten to take them to the KC, and see a solicitor, as they are breaking the contract. Mind you, a part of me is wondering if they are getting their own back in a way. You were late with the payment, so they are going to be late with the registration paperwork..... A bit childish, but.....

Hi,
This Is very unprofessional of them. I personally would want the papers signed at the same time that I handed over the money.
Furtunately the breeders in my breed are very good. I would be very shocked if this ever happend. If she is a Accredited breeder, I would get intouch with your breeding club.
I have to admit the stud fees in my breed are a lot more. Call at her home and ask what the problem is!
Hope you are better, mumps are about every where at the moment.

Denese

Mind you, a part of me is wondering if they are getting their own back in a way. You were late with the payment, so they are going to be late with the registration paperwork

Have to say i agree with the above statement , it was the first thing i thought when reading your post ,
just sounds like their making you wait as you made them wait , even tho i know you were ill and it could not be helped its all a bit silly realy on their part i recon they'll sort what you want right at the last minute ,

i read here that others say their stud fees were higher :-O i thought your sounded expensive we paid £300, stud fee for our girl and that was for one mating and a free try next season if it didnt take , but my breeder was so sure it would and she was right in fact she was even right when she stood and told us the exact date the pups would be born and the mating was over in half an hour , me and OH were gob smacked at how quick we were off on our way home after arriving, wham bam thank you mam comes to mind :-),

i would write the letter and make sure you send it recorded good luck im sure it will get sorted xx

I think the kc would rule in your favour so just give them a call. I wouldnt have any dealing with these folk again.

Just on the air of caution as always. :-)

You did check all the studs paperwork before you mated your bitch to him didn't you?  You saw that he was KC reg, all health certificates etc as well as knowing something of the stud and not just noticing he was advertised as an accredited breeders dog, I hope he was not just a dog in an advert?

The breeder not knowing the actual stud fee is a strange one too.

How did these 6 matings take place I am perplexed? We're they all ties? Are you saying that you travelled over and he mated your bitch 6 times in the same day, or you went back 6 consecutive days? Generally a bitch is taken for 1 mating, if the dates are iffy, then another mating fine, but 6? If a bitch misses then most stud owners will give 2-3 more attemps over seasons. Seems strange.  However the desperation appears to have worked and you have your pups.

From here on I can see why the stud owner is angered at 2.5 weeks he asked for payment, I'm very sorry that you fell ill, particularly ill enough to be in hospital but could you really not have signed a cheque for hubby to post off, I'm sure he or your son found the time to visit you, it is very important to pay for a service like this promptly, particularly if you want the paperwork. I can fully understand the stud owners upset, to then not recieve a payment sent and have to wait for another. I know I would be thinking this was all a ploy for none payment and be extremely upset with you.

Unless the stud owner was a con artist himself (You'll know whether you saw that paperwork to start with) I would be giving him a few days grace, he's been messed about by yourself and he is not going to wish to put himself out for you, what goes around comes around.

Write the letter, apologising profusely for your lack of commitment to the contract and no doubt you will receive the paperwork, process everything online and you'll have your KC papers within 3-7 days from the KC. If you don't hear back from the stud owner, then yes you have problems and the KC needs calling along with trading standards.

Thank you for all your replies, yes i have said i was extremly sorry for the upset caused and i can see how he must feel messed around. Unfortunatly i couldn't be visited in hospital as i have other health problems and ended up with a specialist in durham and we live in the south so i was hospitalized there. But yes i know that was none of his problem. I didn't know they were accredited breeders when we saw him, and all his paperwork was fine. I guess i will just wait and hope before i contact the KC.

If someone else has suggested this then I apologise .............. I would contact the KC as others have suggested but I would also speak to citizen's advice bureau, they are excellent and will give you the advice you need should legal action be necessary.  They will also tell you what wording needs to go in any letters etc ............. worth a try just to get free legal advice should you need to go down that road. Good Luck with it.

hello

the simple answer here seems to be,  forget emails, letters, and the K.C. ( for now ) and try telephoning the stud dogs owner to speak to them direct, this way you might find out exactly why they havnt sent the paperwork yet, it could be they have a very genuin reason just like you did when you were late with payment.

hope it all works out for you.

Not saying I agree and there were unfortunate circumstances.....However.
The agreement was technically broken when they did not receive the payment when the pups were 3 weeks. Even though a check had been sent (at leas two weeks) it apparently was not received by them, then another was sent and cashed and as far as I know in legal terms.....mellc broke the terms first and the stud owner doesn't HAVE to send the paperwork. I think if they want to go down that line they would have a good argument (legally...but maybe morally once the situation was explained they should send the papers).
They could simply argue...fee due when pups were 3 weeks, it wasn't received on time, therefore contract broken and as per the contract they are not obliged to send any paperwork and in legal terms they would be right to do so.
Payments like this should always be photo copied and sent registered post requiring a signature.

Sorry papers and monies should be paid/signed at time of mating with a free return if the bitch misses or am I too old fashioned for todays breeders?

> am I too old fashioned for todays breeders?

Well if you are -so am I !!

And what's with this....
"It was agreed that we would pay £25.00 per mating (handling fee)"

What a lot of nonsence...I can only hazard a guess at what breed  this is!!! :-( Certainly a 'jump on the band-waggon' one for sure.

>"It was agreed that we would pay £25.00 per mating (handling fee)"

I've come across mating terms being that of a non-refundable handling fee (about £50) - but that's for as many matings as it takes at that season, whether a single mating, two or three; still the one-off £50 fee. The rest of the agreed stud fee is then payable either at confirmation of pregnancy, or the birth of at least one puppy, depending on the agreement signed at the time of mating. If no pregnancy results then free repeat mating/s would be offered at the next season.

A few years ago ( quite a few!) a newbie came into my breed, had a big winner, published stud cards spelling out her terms of business...boarding, travelling, handling fees etc. Business...for that's what it was, not a hobby nor helping folk out, just money...up front.

Didn't last long, was not well thought of and dissappeared without trace. Perhaps the taxman was interested in such a professional approach.

I've tended to mix with folk who will help one another and have naively considered dogs as a lovely hobby.

There are also the people who charge a fee per live puppy born (apparently quite a common system abroad), so it seems that the traditional 'fee at the time of mating' system has many alternatives.

at the time of collecting her i paid £150.00 handling fee

reads as if OP left bitch with stud owners...........DID she mate 6 times or maybe just twice and the extra tops up the stud fee?????????

The agreement was technically broken when they did not receive the payment when the pups were 3 weeks. Even though a check had been sent (at leas two weeks) it apparently was not received by them, then another was sent and cashed and as far as I know in legal terms.....mellc broke the terms first and the stud owner doesn't HAVE to send the paperwork.

No disrespect but that is complete rubbish.    I cannot reiterate enough to people don't quote what they"guess" the legal terms or standing is if they really are unsure. It is of no help whatsoever. Sorry but it drives me crackers.

They ( the stud dog owner) appears to have received the stud fee cheque and cashed it so they should give the paperwork.   Yes the OP should have paid the fee on time regardless of the reasons , where she couldn't a member of her family could BUT they have taken her stud fee now and should legally hand over the paperwork.  If there was a contract written up to say if the money was not received by a certain time the no paperwork was being forwarded then they would not have been able to take the fee. Not that that time of contract would really be seen as a fair and reasonable contract.

Let it be a lesson for anyone who does things outwith the traditional route. Pay your fee , get your stud form and save any hassle.

There are also the people who charge a fee per live puppy born

but then theres the one about the stud fee is for the service of the dog not for the production of puppies

The stud fee is for whatever is agreed between the owners of the dog and bitch.

What a lot of nonsence..  No wonder dog folk get a bad name..

I am almost scratching my head.  stud dog owner, " er that is £150 because we have mated your bitch 6 times".
You have to laugh eh.. crackers.

When my dog was used for the first time the bitch owner paid a fee per puppy as he was unproven. Subsequent times he was used there was a set fee, 2 matings were advised / attempted, and a free stud was offered if the bitch missed. I thought this was pretty much the norm? I've never heard of a handling fee!

I charge a one off handling fee. The reason being that should the bitch not take, then the owners have only 'lost' £50 and they can always go to another dog next time if they prefer, whereas if they pay a full stud fee at the mating then they are committed (if they aren't happy) to trying to redeem the stud fee by coming back to the same dog. I know I have always been happier to use a stud dog that way. I was once charged a handling fee and then a fee per puppy but only to a maximum of 8 pups. Anything over that amount was not charged. I know I intend to mate a bitch this time and should she miss then I will not have time to mate her again so would lose a full stud fee and a dog I would choose for her would not be suitable for my other bitch so it would most definitely be a wasted stud fee.

I charge a one off handling fee.

Do you then charge a fee per puppy?

> if they pay a full stud fee at the mating then they are committed (if they aren't happy) to trying to redeem the stud fee by coming back to the same dog.

Why not just refund the money in this eventuality?

> They ( the stud dog owner) appears to have received the stud fee cheque and cashed it so they should give the paperwork. 

Exactly!

I would refund the money if no pups but unfortunately not everyone would and it is obvious from the poster and problems that other poster have had that it is not always that cut and dried. I do not charge per puppy just a full stud fee when puppies are produced. However, I would not charge that full stud fee if say only one puppy was produced as I don't call that a litter. I know some people would not agree to this however, that is how I like to work and feel that everyone is satisfied with this arrangement.

> However, I would not charge that full stud fee if say only one puppy was produced as I don't call that a litter.

I agree that everyone should do things the way they are happy, however if the bitch only produces 1/2 puppies that is down to the bitch not the stud dog so dont see why you dont feel entitled to your full fee, you have provided a service afterall.

Poor timing or poor quality/low number of eggs will produce small litters

Ah, but what if it is down to poor quality of sperm.

Ah, but what if it is down to poor quality of sperm.   Totally agree.

One would hope as a stud dog owner you'd already ruled such things out by having the dog checked for mobility, quality and quantity of sperm before he's used at stud.

> Ah, but what if it is down to poor quality of sperm.

Always a possibility i agree but I would also have thought the stud would have already proven himself in that department, if he has been siring good healthy litters then i would say you have provided the service they have paid you for and definately if the bitch was a maiden as she has no previous history regarding her fertility

Also there is millions of sperm and alot less eggs, so would generally say litter size is more down to the bitch :)

Yes, the dog can only fertilise what is there, however, even if a dog has proven himself he can always have an infection that can make his sperm die off and only produce small litters. It is often only when they start missing to bitches or only produce small litters that the problem is found.

One would hope as a stud dog owner you'd already ruled such things out by having the dog checked for mobility, quality and quantity of sperm before he's used at stud

Yes, I agree, however are you suggesting that a dog should be check every time before he is used at stud.
A dog should most definitely be checked when he is either missing or producing small litters on a regular basis.

oh i agree it can be the dog, but i am just saying that if your male had produced well to date then i think you would be entitled to expect a full stud fee even if the bitch only had 1 puppy and as i said, definately in the case of a maiden.

Of course whatever the agreement between both parties is, then all is fair if both have agreed to the terms prior to the litter. JMO :)

Yes, I agree, however are you suggesting that a dog should be check every time before he is used at stud.
A dog should most definitely be checked when he is either missing or producing small litters on a regular basis

Yes I am after all unless you check both dog and bitch for infection prior to mating you won't know until its too late my boys get checked before and after each bitch an infection can be transmitted without giving symptoms and that's for use with our own bitches as well as outside bitches.

Schip, I think AllisonGold was referring to testing mobility, quality, quantity of sperm, (rather than infection), which you surely wouldn't do every time your dog was used?

Comes part and parcel of my vets testing protocols he does a visual check before any infection testing is done no point testing a dud sample. If a male hasn't been used for a while we use the second ejaculate, yes I do the first at home and off to vets 48 hrs later.

> i think you would be entitled to expect a full stud fee even if the bitch only had 1 puppy and as i said, definately in the case of a maiden.
>

Agree with Mandy here.  Guess it does depend what breed you keep.  Normal litter size for me is 1-3 pups, and I expect to pay the normal stud fee if I only get one pup.  If one of my boys sired a litter of one, I wouldn't expect to be giving a refund to the bitch owner.  Although, to be fair, stud fees aren't that huge in my breeds.

> I've come across mating terms being that of a non-refundable handling fee (about £50) - but that's for as many matings as it takes at that season, whether a single mating, two or three; still the one-off £50 fee. The rest of the agreed stud fee is then payable either at confirmation of pregnancy, or the birth of at least one puppy, depending on the agreement signed at the time of mating. If no pregnancy results then free repeat mating/s would be offered at the next season.

We have done this when we owned a male in partnership so that the person doing the donkey work at least had something for their trouble.

I have also taken this from a stud fee due to someone else when I have handled the mating for them (had dog/and or bitch stay with me).

It is quite usual in my breed to wait on stud fee until there is a litter.

the person doing the donkey work
Nice phrase! :) :) :)