See http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article6688594.ece

It seems as if Jemima is still attempting to flog the dead horse (or should we say dead dog!) - complaining about More4's decision to film Crufts next year.

So Jemima - its not about the dogs, is it?   Its more about you and Beverley Cuddy being anti-KC!

Think its about time someone did the other article - JEMIMA HARRISON - EXPOSED!

As for the quote on the RSPCA....They have a large stall next to the group/BIS ring at EOE!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Well that says it all really doesn't it.

As for breeders welcoming it being back...Not many people on this forum are overjoyed to see it's return, only those who don't show and can't get to crufts...

Ohwell what are we to do in a hypocritical world when RSPCA won't go to Crufts but will go to Crufts qualifing shows and when the person writing these articles has spread her urine in a public place.....

ETA: Urinating carriers a £80 fine due to local bylaws in the area she was in.  ;)  (Yes I admit I was sad enough to check this one out as I know it's not illegal but local bylaws cover this act and you can be fined, I learnt this after someone was peeing up our garden fence one night...

> the person writing these articles has spread her urine in a public place.....

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

> As for the quote on the RSPCA....They have a large stall next to the group/BIS ring at EOE!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

i hate hypocrasy, i really do.

Urinating carriers a £80 fine due to local bylaws in the area she was in.  ;-)  (Yes I admit I was sad enough to check this one out as I know it's not illegal but local bylaws cover this act and you can be fined, I learnt this after someone was peeing up our garden fence one night...

Sounds like I should have made it clear that it was only a few drops and it had been decanted into a jar. I don't think that would contravene any bylaws. But perhaps you'd rather I had never found my dog?

Re the RSPCA, the EOE Show is an agricultural show, not just a dog show. There are plenty of other animals there besides dogs.  Sounds like the placing of the stand might have been inappropriate but their presence per se is not.

Jemima

I'm not sure that I understand you Jemima - you call the dog "your dog" and yet you put her into a rescue home?

I don't think that I could bond so well with a dog over a short time and then re-home her!   And if you felt that the urine trick did lead her back to you - you must now feel very guilty at having allowed a dog that had already had a hard time of it, to bond with you and then you "abandoned" her.   Is that why you kept her in the end?

But why where they not over in the just dogs live section?  Or the agility section?  They where specifically in the CONFORMATION DOG SHOW section which was fenced off with just a gate to the other section.

And infact is far from agricultural anymore as for the past few years has just been the championship show on it's own. :)

"No amount of style can disguise the fact that the channel will inevitably be featuring dogs that are just as deformed, disabled and inbred as the ones featured in Pedigree Dogs Exposed."

Ah yes, looking at my poor dogs who've just walked 4 hours up the Sidlaw Hills, their deformaties & diasbilities really do come to the fore - I don't think.    They could do that again & more.    

Its a shame you couldn't put all your energies into writing about something that might help our troops out in foreign lands, build their morale, try to help people figure out just what they are doing there & why so many are dying seemingly needlessly BUT no, you pick on what you think is an easy target.  Sensationalist headlines & minimal research across all dog breeds.     The human being is one of the worse living beings for genetic health problems to inhabit this earth & how many of us are 'in-bred'?

I'm not sure that I understand you Jemima - you call the dog "your dog" and yet you put her into a rescue home?


You misunderstand. I run a rescue. I was only fostering Tickle. Moderators removed the link but you'll find it if you google Black Retriever X Rescue. Tickle's story is in Success Stories/2007.

Jemima

i dont quite understand your aim jemima??

the way i have it is that you would prefer all dogs to be cross breeds as they are healthier as they are not inbred and deformed??

so the healthchecks we do and the fact we refuse to breed from stock that have temperament issues with our pedigree dogs are for nothing even when there are all kinds putting so called designer dogs up for sale as healthy as they are not pedigree although no health check will have been done?

please explain what your aims are as i am confused?

The human being is one of the worse living beings for genetic health problems to inhabit this earth & how many of us are 'in-bred'?

There are more identifiied genetic diseases in man (more research done) but in terms of prevalence (which is the key thing) the dog is in more trouble than man. The exception is closed communities like, for instance, the Amish which have a high incidence of particular problems (breed-specific if you like) caused by small gene pools and inbreeding.

That's not to say I thing we should get rid of the breeds - I don't. I love my flatcoats, and many other breeds, with a passion. I'm just arguing - as ever - that more should be being done to tackle the problems where they exist.

What's your breed, Christine?

Jemima

>please explain what your aims are as i am confused?

I doubt if you'll get an answer, mahonc. Awkward questions like that tend to be ignored IME.

>I'm just arguing - as ever - that more should be being done to tackle the problems where they exist.

So you're saying that the next programme will be showing how reputable breeders are doing just that? And how the public should steer clear of puppies from breeders who don't do all they can to ensure healthy (mentally and physically) puppies? I hope it'll also stress that they've been doing this for years and not imply that it's only been happening since PDE - that would be incredibly misleading and hypocritical.

> Re the RSPCA, the EOE Show is an agricultural show, not just a dog show. There are plenty of other animals there besides dogs.  Sounds like the placing of the stand might have been inappropriate but their presence per se is not.

Er is it really

East of England Agricultural show was on 19th, 20th, 21st of JUNE 2009 & in  2010 18th, 19t,  20th of JUNE

The dog show is on 10th, 11th and 12th JULY 2009 & in 2010 9th, 10th & 11th JULY  

Are you 100%  sure about that Jemima ?        

Answers on a postcard please

> So you're saying that the next programme will be showing how reputable breeders are doing just that? And how the public should steer clear of puppies from breeders who don't do all they can to ensure healthy (mentally and physically) puppies? I hope it'll also stress that they've been doing this for years and not imply that it's only been happening since PDE - that would be incredibly misleading and hypocritical.

No JG - there are no plans for a follow up as no-one is prepared to finance one !!!  Ms H said that a few weeks ago .....;)

Well if it was the dog show not the agricultural show, I will apologise - and ask the RSPCA for an explanation because, as you say, it would seem a bit odd.

Jemima

No JG - there are no plans for a follow up as no-one is prepared to finance one !!!  Ms H said that a few weeks ago .....;-)

No - that was in reference to a documentary on puppy farms. There wil be a follow-up to PDE at some point.  Am looking at puppy farms for the September issue of Dogs Today, incidentally.

Jemima

> Well if it was the dog show not the agricultural show, I will apologise - and ask the RSPCA for an explanation because, as you say, it would seem a bit odd.

I know why they are there it's called Hypocrisy The RSPCA's secret motto.

You got them to withdraw from Crufts & all other KC dog shows, how dare they go against your wishes ????? I bet you are very very angry-get on the phone first thing tomorrow & demand an explanation

Awkward questions like that tend to be ignored IME.

Er, I answered it in the post above yours.

Jemima

as this a predominantly breeding and showing forum, and you blatantly lurk most of the time surely you can see by the way new posters come on asking how they breed their bitch/dog and are given a severe talking to, on how all dogs should be health tested and shown to make sure they are a good type of the breed.
surely even you on your biased views can see how everyone one of us are utterly committed to not only our own breed but that of others?

Why should I ask the RSPCA ??

Please take the time to read my posts carefully. I said clearly that I will ask the RSPCA.

Jemima

> That's not to say I thing we should get rid of the breeds - I don't. I love my flatcoats, and many other breeds, with a passion. I'm just arguing - as ever - that more should be being done to tackle the problems where they exist.

I've got Border Collies, which I eventually do wish to breed from, they have lots of possible health problems & would have been an ideal victim for your program except for one minor problem-it's only the puppy farmed, BYB bred, pet bred, non registered farm bred dogs that are not health tested-there are probably more DNA tests for Border Collies than any other breed & if a new problem arises research is started & funded PDQ

So answers on a postcard as to why Border Collies weren't on the program please

> There wil be a follow-up to PDE at some point.  Am looking at puppy farms for the September issue of Dogs Today, incidentally.

Most of us prefer not to waste our money on "fluffy" publications.   I trust that the article will be as hard-hitting as your programme was, emphasising the fact that the puppy farmers are those who breed without health checks etc, breed back to back, have no worry about inbreeding, that pedigree certificates may just as well have pictures of fluffy puppies on the front and perforations.

Please let's not have a "lets rescue all these ickle puppies" pulling heart-strings thread as is usual in this publication.

>>Awkward questions like that tend to be ignored IME.
>Er, I answered it in the post above yours.

You mean that your aims are to get breeders doing all they can ensure the puppies they produce are healthy? It seems that you have other aims than that because you could have pointed out what can be done - what reputable breeders were already doing and the puppy-farmers weren't - to this end in the first programme; why didn't you?

> Please take the time to read my posts carefully. I said clearly that I will ask the RSPCA

Please read mine I corrected it !!!!!

as this a predominantly breeding and showing forum, and you blatantly lurk most of the time surely you can see by the way new posters come on asking how they breed their bitch/dog and are given a severe talking to, on how all dogs should be health tested and shown to make sure they are a good type of the breed.
surely even you on your biased views can see how everyone one of us are utterly committed to not only our own breed but that of others?


Yes I can, mahonc, and I think there's a very good level of advice given to people here. The problem is that the breeders who bred and showed the breeds/dogs we highlighted in PDE are, in the main, also utterly committed to their breeds and will also offer this same good advice. My argument is that it can be hard to see the wood for the trees because many in the show-world are very densitised to the problems that certain breeds suffer because of the way they've been bred.

I also believe that the many breeds are suffering genetically thanks to an ever-shrinking gene pool and that the breeding paradigm needs to change to address this. 

Jemima

> because many in the show-world are very densitised to the problems that certain breeds suffer because of the way they've been bred.
>
>

????

so show dog owners are desensitised to their beloved animals being ill? hardly, and the suggestion is very offensive.

i think if you asked each and everyone of us on here we could highlight the health problems in our chosen breed.
take my breed dcm is something that right now lupa have a program to see if dna tests can be taken to establish if it can be diagnosed before breeding takes place as this usually comes on in later years.
But as a breed club test its reccommended that you go for heart tests.
i spent 600+ on this on my bitch a few months back who was found to have grade 1 aortic stenosis so now she wont be bred from, all breeders i know do the same test along with hip and elbow.

you will always get bad breeders as you will get bad drivers and bad anything else in life but the people who take showing and breeding serious do health test.

surely a program on how good breeders do health check and how to go about buying a puppy, ie contacting the breed club and checking health tests on the k.c site etc.. would be more beneficial to people looking into buying a pup.
the only thing you have managed to do so far is promote so called designer breeds as apparantly they are healthy

I've got Border Collies, which I eventually do wish to breed from, they have lots of possible health problems & would have been an ideal victim for your program except for one minor problem-it's only the puppy farmed, BYB bred, pet bred, non registered farm bred dogs that are not health tested-there are probably more DNA tests for Border Collies than any other breed & if a new problem arises research is started & funded PDQ

So answers on a postcard as to why Border Collies weren't on the program please

There were lots of breeds that weren't featured in PDE - although, actually border collies were in there at one point as they're a very good example of the work/show split. Have you read Don McCaig's book on the battle to prevent the AKC registering them?  You won't be terribly surprised to hear that I prefer to see border collies herding sheep than trotting round a show-ring. Although I'm not immune to the handsomeness of a show collie, for me the true beauty - and indeed the definition of the breed - lies in the work they do.

I appreciate that it is often the show folk to health-test and help fund new research, really I do. But however much health-testing you guys do, if you keep breeding within small gene pools and continue to put looks so high on the agenda, you are heading for more trouble.

Jemima

> You won't be terribly surprised to hear that I prefer to see border collies herding sheep than trotting round a show-ring.

does this apply to all breeds in your view jemima?

does this apply to all breeds in your view jemima?

Well it wasn't me who coined the phrase Fit for Function, Fit for Life. Notwithstanding that some dogs never had a job over and above being a pet or that the jobs some dogs used to do are inappropriate today.

Jemima

I often wonder how  Ms Harrison  has time for her rescue and exposé work,   with the amount of time she spends  watching for her antenna to bleep when ever some one writes her name on the world of the web.

> watching for her antenna to bleep when ever some one writes her name on the world of the web.

hmmmmmm good point how long was it for her to respond?

its a sunday puddleduck give yourself a rest

> There were lots of breeds that weren't featured in PDE - although, actually border collies were in there at one point as they're a very good example of the work/show split. Have you read Don McCaig's book on the battle to prevent the AKC registering them?  You won't be terribly surprised to hear that I prefer to see border collies herding sheep than trotting round a show-ring. Although I'm not immune to the handsomeness of a show collie, for me the true beauty - and indeed the definition of the breed - lies in the work they do.

Don who ????? an American I presume ? Why do the ISDS need an American to save the Working Sheepdogs ?????? You've lost me there

My dogs are bred to work, I've also shown my working dogs in the breed ring with success-despite them having no KC registered dogs behind them(& I mean Ch Shows & not companion shows). My trialling dog was a very successful Obedience & Conformation dog as well so he could trot around the ring, do dressage(Obedience)as well as qualifying for the English National Trials & working as a flock dog to boot.

Sadly the farm bred dogs that are not ISDS registered have no tests done & the ISDS only insist on eye testing & not hip/elbow/DNA/BAER testing. I've found it difficult to find an ISDS breeder who hip scores let alone DNA/BAER tests. Fortunately for me I have been able to go back to the breeder of one of my dogs to book a puppy. There are ISDS members out there who do all the health tests, but they are very few & far between.

There maybe a show work split in the entries for some judges, but not all, certainly not me.

> But however much health-testing you guys do, if you keep breeding within small gene pools and continue to put looks so high on the agenda, you are heading for more trouble.

Actually looked at the Border Collie BRS entries ?? I guess not, there are a lot of breeders who use ISDS stud dogs & bitches in their breeding programs & of course the evil UK KC still register them !!

Most of us prefer not to waste our money on "fluffy" publications.   I trust that the article will be as hard-hitting as your programme was, emphasising the fact that the puppy farmers are those who breed without health checks etc, breed back to back, have no worry about inbreeding, that pedigree certificates may just as well have pictures of fluffy puppies on the front and perforations.

Please let's not have a "lets rescue all these ickle puppies" pulling heart-strings thread as is usual in this publication.

Not sure I recognise this description of Dogs Today! And please be assured the article will indeed be hard-hitting. Puppy-farms are the source of untold suffering - which is why the KC should make a stand and stop registering puppies from them.

Jemima

> hmmmmmm good point how long was it for her to respond?
>
>

59 mins :D

So Jemima - its not about the dogs, is it?   Its more about you and Beverley Cuddy being anti-KC!

Well said. They really do deserve each other & no one could be more of a hypercrite than Beverly Cuddy who let's not forget actually used to work for the KC and has also bred pedigree dogs herself from dogs that were related. How hypercritical is that? Bleating on about Pedigree dogs falling to bits when SHE herself was as guilty as sin? And they think us breeders are the ones who can't see the wood for the trees? JOKE!

> that the jobs some dogs used to do are inappropriate today.
>

there in lies my concern. some of us own breeds that whos function is not longer testable

> Well it wasn't me who coined the phrase Fit for Function, Fit for Life. Notwithstanding that some dogs never had a job over and above being a pet or that the jobs some dogs used to do are inappropriate today.

Well my BCs are fit for function & my Cavaliers are as well, MY BCs work(sheep & obedience)& are health tested & my Cavaliers are companions & also vermin hunters(the job they did back in the 16th Century)along with my cats ! Even my 6 month old Cavalier(yes from heart & MRI scanned parents & Grand Parents)can catch mice(aided by the cats)

> Beverly Cuddy who let's not forget actually used to work for the KC and has also bred pedigree dogs herself from dogs that were related.

Her dogs were very very very heavily inbred more so than most breeders too

You mean that your aims are to get breeders doing all they can ensure the puppies they produce are healthy? It seems that you have other aims than that because you could have pointed out what can be done - what reputable breeders were already doing and the puppy-farmers weren't - to this end in the first programme; why didn't you?

This is a fair question and is at the heart of PDE. I didn't because despite the breeders believing that they are doing all they can to ensure the puppies they produce are healthy, the situation is in many breeds getting worse, not better. That's because, as I've said, I believe the whole breeding paradigm is flawed.  I also believe that grossly overdone bassets and neapolitan mastiffs, german shepherds that look like hyenas and pugs and pekes with very flat faces are unacceptable - not least because they didn't used to look like that.  And, finally, the puppy farmers are never going to get their house in order. But you guys can for the very reasons you state - you DO care about your breeds.

Jemima

Her dogs were very very very heavily inbred more so than most breeders too

But the point is that, even if she did inbreed, she would not now.

Delighted to hear that your cav puppy is from MRI-scanned parents, Moonmaiden.

Jemima

> But the point is that, even if she did inbreed, she would not now.

But she never mentions the fact that she did do this more so than anyone else except one other kennels at the time ! If she was to become active in the breed again & start breeding she would have to inbreed if she wanted the same type of dog she had before

>But you guys can for the very reasons you state - you DO care about your breeds.

I believe in my breed we have.  Although if you would care to donate £50,000 we can get our last known gentical health issue sorted with a DNA test and then also be able to start a breeding program to kick this one out the breed. :)  We have been successful with Clad, are currently being successful with vWD and only to follow is PPC, I recond 10 years after DNA test compleat, we can have that compleatly out the breed.  It will take that long due to a small gene pool and a non life threatening problem that breeding affected under extream circumstances could possibly be acceptable for a couple of generations.  That is of course unless we learn something about PPC we don't know.  My affected dog never went blind from PPC and lived to 14, unfortantly time caught him out, nothing else.

Sorry but why are you all raking this up again?  She doesn't care and is it worth continuing it on this forum, I for one have had enough.

>which is why the KC should make a stand and stop registering puppies from them.

Back to the old problem of definition. What is the indisputable, non-subjective, legal definition of a puppy farm?

>This is a fair question and is at the heart of PDE. I didn't because despite the breeders believing that they are doing all they can to ensure the puppies they produce are healthy, the situation is in many breeds getting worse, not better.

It would still have been of infinitely more value to point out the sound wood from the diseased trees in the forest.

>the puppy farmers are never going to get their house in order. But you guys can for the very reasons you state - you DO care about your breeds.

So why didn't you point out the difference between us instead of categorising us as the same? What a missed opportunity, which played right into the hands of the very people you claim to despise.

I agree perrodeagua...old ground.

The main contributers to this discussion know each others opinion, some entrenched, some more open  - but is there much point flogging this dead horse?