Hi all. Ths is my first posting though I have lurked on here for years and picked up loads of advice - thank you!
In November 2005 we adopted a 6 month GSD/collie male from the RSPCA - Max. They had no history for him, he was in with 10 litter mates, and he was very timid - no eye contact at all. He was easy to housetrain and walk, but always very subdued, we always used to call him misery. He also followed us around, sitting on settees etc.
We decided a year later to get him a pal as he loved being with other dogs, and adopted a 9 week old GSD/akita female - Molly. They immediately adored each other. Their play together has always been rough, they are both big dogs, but they never actually hurt each other for real. There is a lot of dominance/neck scruff biting, neither one seems to dominate the other.
Recently Max's behaviour has changed, he is now 3. We have noticed when out he will run up to people as they pass us (if the dogs are off lead) and he lunges at people, particularly women. He seems to be trying to nip their elbows. On Thursday evening I was talking to a man in the street (admittedly he was a weird man who I don't know and he was shouting and gesticulating). I lost concentration and Max lunged and actually did nip his elbow, the man's jacket was wet. Also Friday evening my teenage son's friend walked past Max and Max jumped up at him too.
In the house he is lovely, he goes manic when he sees me put my shoes on, and that escalates when he sees his lead. They are walked reguarly, have their own area in the garden, and are never alone for more than a couple of hours.
I feel he is trying to dominate me, I am no push over and have had dogs since I was 7. I already muzzle both of them when we are out off lead as they do look intimidating together. I may now have to muzzle Max all the time? But that's really no life for any of us. We go caravanning a lot and take them with us, and love to let them run and swim.
We have started being stern with him, not allowing him on furniture etc. going through doors after us, but I am getting very worried.
Molly is calm, quiet, obedient and no trouble whatsoever!
Any advice?

> We have started being stern with him, not allowing him on furniture etc. going through doors after us,

De-Bunking the 'Dominance Myth' Dr.Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson and Carmen Bruiago :)

Training is what's needed for this young man :) This behavior can be changed with reward based 'set your dog up to succeed' methods. In the long run much nicer for you all to have a dog that chooses to behave well. Time to be pro-active rather than reactive. (which of course you are doing by posting!)

Welcome to the Forum!.. sorry Im just on my way out,no time to post more but you will receive lots of good advise on training tips to achieve this here (look out for Lindsay, theemx and Toolz <- some experienced trainers here :))

Thank you for that link, it's interesting.
We love Max, and desperately want to keep him, we have never believed in physical punishment as we don't know what happened in his first 6 months and we don't honestly think it would help him to hurt him. We have never insisted on him performing any 'party tricks', shaking paw is his limit, he is terrified of being made to lie down so we don't do it.
He also hates being groomed and will go to great lengths to avoid it!
We are determined to praise his good behaviour, but keep him under very close supervision when out.
We took them both to the local fields today, but when we saw 2 teenage girls and he ran towards them I was physically shaking and felt sick.
Also if there are any doggy mind readers out there- his behaviour started changing when he learnt how to cock his leg up - a few weeks ago!
We took his muzzle today but it was hot and he was panting and hates it so we took it off when walking up the hills.
The thing is he is wonderful at home with us and our children, but he changes when other children/teenagers are here and when out.
Here he is last week, he is gorgeous.
[url=][IMG]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/kinza123/JulyAugust2008021.jpg[/IMG][/url]
[url=][IMG]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/kinza123/SuttonMay2009029.jpg[/IMG][/url]

> his behaviour started changing when he learnt how to cock his leg up - a few weeks ago!

Edited as looked at your first post - I expect he's castrated being from the RSPCA, and he'll be 4 now if my maths is correct. :-) I can see reasons why starting leg cocking could be linked with other changes in behaviour in an older dog as they would in an adolescent dog, but finding it difficult to explain because I'm braindead tonight!!

You mentioned you felt fear when he was running towards people - dogs really pick up on our emotions, and they will react to our fear too - obviously that isn't what has triggered the change in the first place since I imagine you weren't fearful of him approaching people before - but I thought it was worth mentioning to consider, as you - understandably - being worried - could make his behaviour worse. I am afraid I'm not a behaviour expert - and none of them seem to have shown up yet! But it might be wise in the short term to keep him on lead - so that you have the confidence that you have him under your control - and that confidence will travel down to him too. And hopefully someone like Lindsay, Toolz or Tohme will pop up soon with some more detailed advice. :-)

PS He's a handsome lad. :-)

Just for some more information when he nipped this man where you feeling a bit threatened by this man? When you say he nipped, did he growl at this man, snarl or anything like that? Was the nip in your opinion aggressive?
I only ask this as he has collie in him, they are known to try and round up people(i know of many that try to) and will nip if in order to do this.. Like they do with sheep..

You mention he also lunges at people who have dogs off the lead, is he showing any signs of aggression when he does this or is he trying to go to the dogs?
What is he like off lead around other dogs and people? Is this just when he is on the lead this occurs?

> I was physically shaking and felt sick.

> We took his muzzle today but it was hot and he was panting and hates it

Oh Lindy, Bless you! this is miserable for all of you isn't it and my heart does go out to you (as the owner of two reformed breed rescue dogs, trust me I've 'been there and done that!' with worry x)

Firstly, much hypothesis can be bandied around as to fear/aggression but really the internet is no substitute for you getting in an accredited trainer/behaviourist to assess your dog in the flesh and as it happens. I really believe that things have got to an awful stage for all of you and it would be most prudent to do this and get this behavior nipped in the bud (pardon the pun!) I can see from your upset that you realise the gravity of the consequences if this behavior continues or escalates.

My gut reaction from what you have written is that we are not looking at aggression.... but I cannot of course put money on that, It would be fool hardy of me to assess a dog's behavior I have not *seen*

The collie 'Nip reflex' should never be confused for 'aggression' but also it must never be used as an excuse for undesirable behavior (In working trials it is a disqualifier) Have a look at this article Dr.Ian Dunbar -'Bite stop' Bite inhibition As I said earlier this is a case of going back to basic training with this young man. There are lots of good articles out there on 'Bite inhibition' and if you scroll down to the bottom of this page you will see a white box if you type 'bite inhibition' into it and press 'Google site search' it will take you to all the posts that have been made on this forum on this topic. (Lots of good reading for you :))

Ultimately I really do believe that your best bet is to bring in an accredited trainer/behaviorist (you may have to go through your vet for a referral) but ensure that you choose a trainer who uses reward based training and is accredtited by either:
http://www.apdt.co.uk/
or
http://www.apbc.org.uk/

Very Best wishes xx
and ((Hugs)) for you Its horrible when walks make you feel upset and sick with worry, but with good consistent training this will be a thing of the past.
( I have a Husky who is 5yrs old and a real go anywhere meet anyone dog 3yrs ago it was a very different story!! a howling lunging thug!! I had owned and trained this breed for 12 yrs and considered myself more than competent But having never had a rescue dog and one not from puppyhood (and history relatively unknown) I had absolutely no qualms in bringing in an APBC behaviourist to help me assess and train him...and its not expensive,its only the charlottans that charge £100's! I think I paid about £15-30 per 2 hour session of which I was always given extra time and lots of handouts and invaluable knowledge advise! The joy od this was she could accompany us on walks pre-training and post to gauge behaviours and train accordingly... often noticing things I had missed or was totally unaware of which was absolutely invaluable)
Hope this helps xx

Thank you everyone, I am feeling better already.
At the time Max nipped the man I was feeling very threatened, there were 2 men acting strangely, indeed minutes later a police van pulled up (i had reported strange behaviour) and they took another man into custody under the Mental Health Act! It's normally a quiet village believe me!!
You have really made me think, as Max is NOT aggressive. However he is very 'collie' if you know what I mean?
He has always been possessive towards us, once he learnt to trust us and knew we weren't going to hurt him, and standing back looking at his behaviour he does seem to be rounding people up.
I may discount the man Thursday evening, as I felt under threat and yes maybe the dogs sensed that, it was their reactiontowards the man that made me call the police in away, as even Molly shied away from him and she is still a puppy (in her head not her size!).
Max has always acted differently towards people when he is alone with me, as against when my husband is with us.
At the moment as things are there is no way I can afford a dog trainer, so I am going to read like mad, observe and keep him under firm control.

Have you read Gwen Bailey's Collie books?  I haven't personally, as I have gundogs not herders, but I believe they are meant to be good - and of course you have a dog who is a mix of two herding breeds. :-)

There is no substitute for a hands on positive trainer though - I was astounded by how well and fast my dogs responded to the behaviourist, and to clicker training - and I learnt so much more about them and how they interact - it's like learning a new language - and I thought I knew a fair bit already.

But dogs will react to people behaving strangely - my GSP is NOT keen on drunk people, because they are behaving unpredictably, so that could certainly explain your boy's reaction to the man who was taken away under the Mental Health Act, as GSDs in particular are quite protective too.

But like Liv (HG) I would recommend a hands on trainer/behaviourist - it might not take that many sessions before everything slots into place, you know how to manage things, and can just call on telephone back up from them. :-)

> We took his muzzle today but it was hot and he was panting

just a quick query, what sort of muzzle are you using as the 'basket' ones are a lot safer for the dog than the nulon ones that stop them opening their mouths.
Chris

Hi,
You've had great advice, so nothing to add other than find a good behaviourist. You say you cannot afford one, but it would really be money well spent, just to ensure that you are absolutely clear about what is going on and why. An investment now may save you heartache and stress down the road and a good, experienced behaviourist can quickly spot a problem that may take an owner months, even years to understand. If your dog is insured you may well be able to claim for it too.

Also, aside from your dogs collie traits let's not forget he is part GSD and those natural GSD guard attributes may be coming to the fore, particularly with all the stress and tension that you describe.

Do try to get a behaviourist in, even if it's for a couple of sessions.