Hi all,
I have been thinking about getting my 7month old male crossbreed (not seen any other 'mongrels' mentioned here, am I in the right place?) neuterd but I dont feel I have enough knowledge to decide either way.
I run a pub and he is very popular among all of the locals, many of whom are dog owners and are more than happy to offer advice (requested or otherwise) on how i should raise my dog, train him, 'discipline' him etc etc. but a few have mentioned I should be looking at having him 'done'. I am in two minds about it really. Firstly, he is a very calm pup. He doesnt seem to be dominant in anyway towards people coming and going or other dogs visiting his 'house' but I also worry that he may become so in the future if I dont act now? I have heard many, many different reasons for and against neutering but what I really want is some straight forward advice from either point of view.
Any advice would be fantastic!
Thank You

p.s My mother has just become another mum to an 8 week old German Sheperd puppy (a very big boy!) and he is so far un-named! Any suggestions?

>not seen any other 'mongrels' mentioned here, am I in the right place?

Lots of people here have cross-breeds :)
I lost my old rescue mutt last sept :(  He was neutered at about 6 years old because he was a coomplete nightmare when he smelt a bitch on heat, he would constantly try to escape (got himself run-over by a car in the process), he would cry, pace aorund and generally be very hard to live with. Neuturing solved that for us :) If he wasn't a pain with bithces on heat he would never have been done.

Not all entire males are like this with bitches. Going back many years we had a mongrel that was never neutered, despite being raised with his sister, he never bothered her atall before she was spayed at about 2yrs old and we never had any problem with him trying to escape to get to bitches either.

My current male dog is coming up 2 years old, I've no plans to have him neutured atall.

That great news! I just read about lots of people with dogs being taken to shows etc, the only category Mason would qualify for is the 'I can hear crisps from 300ft' section!

Thank you for your view on what i think is quite a big decision! He does seem quite attached to them so and i dont want to ruin him :)

I think the majority of CD members will agree that neutering is only necessary if a medical condition negates it.  I've got a very laid back Leo pup and have absolutely no intention of having him done, nor do I intend to breed from him.

> I've got a very laid back Leo pup and have absolutely no intention of having him done, nor do I intend to breed from him.

Oh yes, I must add that my dog will never be bred from or shown, he's solely a pet, but he's keeping his 'bits' anyway :)

if you have no reason to do it i wouldn't. for one thing he's far to young yet, his growth would be effected.

unless you have a good reason such as medical issues or a behavioural issue that a proffessional advised you would be helped (not always the case!) then why put your dog through the op? you just need to be responsible, keep up training through the 'kevins' which you'll be approaching and make sure he doesn't get to in season bitches.

Edited to add: and there are loads of cross owners here! (not me at the mo but in the past), they are dogs to :)

Hi Masonsmum

I'm of the 'if it aint broke' view re males being routinely castrated.  All youngsters of every species need hormones to mature in mind and body so it matters not whether we're talking of a specific breed / cross or multi-mix - he still needs time to develop naturally :)

Many vets recommend castration on preventative grounds - all manner of behavioural problems often being added to the reasoning as well as testicular cancer.  I've very rarely heard of entire males developing testicular cancer and the often glorified one time 'Kevin' whose behaviour settled down remarkably 6 months post op would IMO very probably have done so anyway had nature taken it's course :)

The decision is strictly yours, just be aware that it is not such a dire position to own an entire male when he is well trained and amiable - they don't routinely make attempts to chase bitches, become escape artists, hump everything that moves/breathes, scent mark indiscriminately nor square up to every other male in the community. 

He sounds a really good youngster as he is - clearly you're doing everything right!  Well done :)

best wishes, Teri

ps. Try HERE for name suggestions re your mum's puppy.  I like Otto, Hans or Rolph for Germanic lads but she may want something very different.

I found these two papers invaluable in helping me with this decision.  The first I originally got from this board.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665
Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats,
Margaret V. Root Kustritz, dvm, phd, dact

Hi Masonsmum

Sounds to me as if your boy is a darling - why would you want to spoil him?  You say he's calm, not dominant and you obvioulsy have no other issues with him.  I wouldn't want to alter his lovely temperament, and I think he's far too young anyway.  I would only be saying "go ahead" if there was a medical need.  Just enjoy him, and smile inanely at all the well meaning advice!  :-)

> reasons for and against neutering

I have only ever had one neutered dog (by the rescue people we got him from, not our choice) so I suppose that's not a huge sample to go on. But compared with our other intact males (several over many years), our poor boy is always hungry and despite being given much smaller portions, is still inclined to put on weight. That impacts upon his energy levels and his exercise tolerance. I wouldn't do it from choice, not unless I had a real health or behavioural concern.

Your dog sounds lovely. I wouldn't be in any hurry to get him done.

I have a 4yr old cross breed. He has been neutered at about 9 months. We followed advice from the vet on that as he was very hyper and always humping everybody, embarassing for my teenage daughters' friends etc. The castration certainly stopped the humping after a few weeks it just petered out, his behaviour also improved but i think that was more due to all the training.
Our previous dog was a dalmatian, and he was never castrated, we never had any behavioural issues with him, but he did take off after in-season bitches a couple of times, which was quite scary, as he didn't come back for a long time. When he was almost 15 years old he became incontinent, and the vet told us that this was due to a condition which would not have been so likely in a castrated dog, but as he only lived for a few months after that anyway, maybe it doesn't matter too much.

We have 2 entire males at home with 5 bitches.  My mum is considering getting her GSD done (he's now 6 1/2 years old) due to him being a pain in the bum (!) when one of the bitches is in season but i'm not sure he will be.

My male Rottie is now 2 1/2 and is entire and I have no intention of getting him done now or in the future.  He's got a lovely temperament and is good with all people and all dogs and I don't wish to mess around with his hormones incase it does have an adverse effect on him.

I always tell people at our training classes unless you have a really good reason to castrate early then don't do it and wait until the dog is atleast 18 mths old before deciding.

Hi ,
I feel I am in the minority here in saying that neutering/spaying our dogs is a good thing, so here goes with the pro neutering debate.

Your dog is still only 7 months, a pup so no need to worry about it for years. Once they get to 4 years they are mentally grown adult dogs and his sexual urge will be apparent. In your living arrangement with him being in a pub at the moment would not cause an issue but once older he could see another entire male dog coming into his pub as a threat also any bitches as potential mates by smelling them all the time and generally being a nuisance it might cause him to act differently leaving you to shut him away from all your customers with certain dogs. If he smells a dog on heat he will try to escape and mate and him being a x breed generate more unnecessary pups in an over populated Britain. He might start cocking his leg around the pub to say to others this is my territory. Customers might start asking you if  they (if he grows up to be a handsome boy) can mate him with their dog and keep on, with in the end maybe thinking let him have sex just the once.

I have a male Snoop entire for 7 years until I decided to get him the op and he has not changed his attitude one bit. Still loves his food as always, he is more tolerant of males dogs where before he would try and act the big hard man and showing dominance, every 5 seconds or so taken on a walk and he would cock his leg obsessively marking his way in the world that has stopped. He seems just more together mentally and I see it as his brain not being ruled by carnal thoughts because lets be honest men have always just wanted to sow their seed. If your not going to let them- why make them have these feelings of sex with no outlet? Rather cruel as its a natural feeling and its unnatural not to let them be men dogs and do the deed when the opportunity arises. 

I wouldn't get a male operated on until he was mentally grown up though, as my rescued lad Starsk was neutered at 6 months by the rspca and is very puppy like and is 5 now, but that could be the way he was brought up by his previous owner because I've had his sister since 6 months of age and she was spayed the same time and is a brilliant dog. 

I can understand that it would be different if he was a show dog and had a big fluffy coat as I only recently found out that it can affect their coat quality causing problems with grooming and the look of the fur.  Lots of people make it out to be unnecessary- but we wouldn't dream of keeping male horses as stallions as we all know they make better pets having there bits off.

You will have to be careful with him around other dogs in the pub if people are bringing in bitches in season - you dont want to hear the patter of tiny paws :-)
I had my boy done - at 2years old & it was one of the best decisions i ever made

> Your dog is still only 7 months, a pup so no need to worry about it for years.

males can mate and tie at 5.5 months or so and may also be fertile - just as bitches can come into season and ovulate at the same age.

> Once they get to 4 years they are mentally grown adult dogs and his sexual urge will be apparent.

see above :)  Actual physical and mental maturity comes much, much later than their s@xual urges and abilities to procreate

How dogs, of either gender, behave towards others of their own gender is down to (a) their inherited temperament; (b) appropriate socialisation; (c) how well they are trained and managed :)

regards Teri

> Your dog is still only 7 months, a pup so no need to worry about it for years. Once they get to 4 years they are mentally grown adult dogs and his sexual urge will be apparent. In your living arrangement with him being in a pub at the moment would not cause an issue but once older he could see another entire male dog coming into his pub as a threat also any bitches as potential mates by smelling them all the time and generally being a nuisance it might cause him to act differently leaving you to shut him away from all your customers with certain dogs. If he smells a dog on heat he will try to escape and mate and him being a x breed generate more unnecessary pups in an over populated Britain. He might start cocking his leg around the pub to say to others this is my territory. Customers might start asking you if  they (if he grows up to be a handsome boy) can mate him with their dog and keep on, with in the end maybe thinking let him have sex just the once.

For anybody with a male pup reading the above, please don't rush to the vets and get his bits chopped off. All of the above behvaiour is not typical of an entire male, there may be a possibility for some of the behvaiour but it's not typical.

The dog I had neutered at 6yrs old was very friendly prior to the op with other male dogs, despite his obvious intentions at trying to escape to find a bitch on heat when he smelt one, he was also an incredible humper. Getting him neutered was no magic fix to his humping, it helped a little, but training was the clincher with that. Getting him neutered also didn't stop him cocking his leg every 10 paces when out on a walk. Apart from removing the frustration he showed when he smelt a bitch on heat, his personality didn't change, but he had a tendancy to put on weight.

I've only ever had male dogs and if for one moment I believed that them staying entire would guarantee other dogs being seen as a threat by my dog, there is no way on earth I would keep my huge dog entire. But from personal experience and the advice from my vet, there is no need to get my dog neutered. IF, when he is fully mature he is showing problems relating to sex-drive/testosterone I would discuss the possibilities of getting him neutered with the vet, but it really isn't the cure-all everybody thinks it is.

>If your not going to let them- why make them have these feelings of sex with no outlet?

Not all male dogs get the urge to mate and getting them neutered does not guarantee they don't get the urge to mate (I've seen several breeders here comment that neutuerd males should not be left with bitches on heat as they can still mate & tie - they just fire blanks!).
A responsible owner is all that is needed to stop the event of unwanted litters, for all other aspects associated with entire males, IMO most cases just need training, people seem to overlook the fact that male dogs can be more pushy and simply get them castrated instead of working them through into adulthood with consistent training.

I personally do not want to put my dog through an opperation that would have no benefit to him.

I appreciate that there are people who would rather get thier dogs neutered, but suggesting that all entire male dogs turn into aggresive, terratorial sex-maniacs in not the truth and can frighten people.

ETA, the dog I had neuterd at 6 yrs old was a rescue, we got him when he was 4yrs old. If we had him from a pup we may have been able to avoid the escaping for bitches by training, by the tim ewe had him it was second-nature to him, so we needed the help of removing the urge by getting him castrated.

> (not seen any other 'mongrels' mentioned here, am I in the right place?)

One of mine is a mongrel, a terrier type ish, medium sized one.  He is a rescue dog and was neutered at 10 or 11 months (we have to guess his actual age!)

I also have an an entire pedigree dog.

We think that the mongrels coat did change after neutering but that may also be down to the change from a puppy coat.  We also have nothing to compare him against so we can't be sure what an un neutered version of him would be like.  He is a very polite, dapper, 'gentleman' of a dog with lovely manners but I cannot say if neutering did that.  I expect much of it is hard-wired in and the rest is upbringing and training perhaps?

Since we bought our youngest dog to show, and have spent much more time with 'dog aware' people I'd be more inclined to listen to those who've had years of experience with a range of dogs.  They will be best placed to observe differences in their own breed, between neutered and entire dogs, and will likely have more anecdotal evidence than your average owner.  It is worth noting though that with a mongrel of unknown parentage no one knows quite what to expect so any changes, after neutering, may be less apparent.

in fairness magica every argument you have given in favour of having the op are all based on situatyions that could, but will not for certain, happen. its pretty unusual for a complete male to sent mark in the house, the op i am sure will be responsible and not allow him to breed and being complete is not a prerequisite for aggression. however, they are all potential issues that the op should consider.

on the other hand there are other downsides to the op that need to be considered to. first off, it is a non essential surgery that can have repurcussions- many dogs don't do well under anaesthetic so thats always a danger and some can have reactions to the surgery, i remember a rescue we had had the op and reacted to the stiches (they may have been cat gut? does that sound right?) and had swelling and rashes etc. additionally coat change is a big factor, this is not just an issue for the looks of show dogs (who probably would not be shown following the op anyway) but it can be a big problem for grooming any dog, and a poorly groomed dog can have skin issues and other issues of discomfort. also a poster has recently had a thread about how facinated complete dogs are with her incomplete boy and how it is causing him to be aggressive to them as they won't give him peace-many posters have said this might be due to a hormone issue.

i agree with teri's point of if it ain't broke don't fix him :)

I'm against neutering unless for medical / behavioural reasons too - those hormones do way more than the immediate sexual urge in a male or seasons in a bitch. I have an entire male who has only marked once in the house since being housetrained, he is now 7 and does not even do it when my entire bitch is in season. I also have a neutered male (he was squabbling with the other boy) and neutering has calmed the situation a fair bit (and as a side benefit created a decent coat out of the pathetic cottony affair that was his natural coat, but I didn't know then that it would do that). It often ruins a good coat, so I was pleasantly surprised that as well as calming the fighting problem it improved his coat! :-D

>if you have no reason to do it i wouldn't. for one thing he's far to young yet, his growth would be effected.<

Sorry but how can you say this dogs growth would defenatly be affected.  Over the past quite a few years since giving up showing and breeding I have had lots of dogs nuetered at various stages and many at 6 months.  Not one dog has ever had its growth affected, it has grown and matured in exactly the same way as any left entire.  The only difference is the "Kevin" stage was easier as they were not getting any hormone induced problem behaviour, and consequently never learned that behaviour which I then had to train out, (which you can't always).
You also take away that risk of your dog getting testicular cancer which is very real and from which I lost a dog. 
There are too many dogs in rescues and there will always be a risk that any entire dog could mate with a loose in season bitch and result more unwanted crossbreed puppies for the pound.
Unless you have a good show speciman that can further a breed the resposible thing for you, and your dog is to get it nuetered.
By the way I also have a crossbreed now so you are not alone as there are many more on here too.

Testicular cancer is very rare, prostate cancer is more common, and happens in neutered males more often.

As for growth it is a proven fact that the onset of puberty closes the growth plates so that a dogs proper growth is maintained.

Neutered dogs long bones on average continue to grow for another 10 weeks, and the bone density is affected.

Not a great issue in small to medium size breeds but certainly quite an issue for large or giant breeds as the neutering affects the development in chest and head etc, and the lack of hormones the density of the bones.

Bone cancer is also more common in males that have been neutered before puberty.

I don't know if the neutered dogs you have had experience of not being affected were of any breed or larger size.

I certainly can confirm in my breed that growth and development both physical and mental in males especially is affected by early neutering.  Those done at full maturity for whatever reason show no negative effects.

They are just a medium size breed but quite slow maturing.

I have had nuetered personally at 6 months of age in male dogs.  CKCS, GSD, Dobermann, Border Collie, JRT, Rough Collies,  a Lab, and crossbreeds, None of these have ever been any different to thier litter mates as they grow or when fully grown and none had any problems of any sort connected with bones.  My GSD who i would have perhaps expected to see something only started to get a bit stiff at 12 years old by which time he was almost blind and totally deaf.
I have also known of many other dogs of various breeds nuetered early and late and because of an interest in this have followed the growth through to adulthood and beyond where I can and have never seen a difference or any problems arise.
I have only followed the growth of one giant breed litter (Newfoundland) so cannot comment on giant breeds and the two nuetered young in that litter had no problems either.
In a crossbreed especially I would always advise early nuetering to take away any chance however small of any more unwanted puppies being born and adding to the already over population of unwanted dogs that have obviously come from people who decided against nuetering and spaying.

I've certainly seen a difference in Rough Collies that have been castrated before they've matured as recommended to pet owners by their Vet.  By the time they are 12 months old, they are scrawny, slab sided, have long, long legs with no bone, bearing little resemblance to their chunky, well balanced entire litter mates.  Then by the time they're 3 years old, their 'easy to maintain working coat' has changed to candy floss that pet owners find difficult to groom, and although they get plenty of running in the park, they haven't been advised to reduce their food intake and so they are fat, with the Vet now selling them reducing diet!

And in the grooming parlour, I've frequently seen beautiful, well bred Cavalier puppies who've been neutered early, change into very untypical unbalanced adults, again with horrendous coats.

I would never advise neutering of either sex unless the owner wasn't capable of looking after an entire dog/bitch, or unless medical reason made it necessary.

> Sorry but how can you say this dogs growth would defenatly be affected.

There is a direct link between testosterone & the endocrine hormone that affects the growth plates. Insufficient testosterone leads to late/non closure of the growth plates in the long bones, resulting in excess growth in the long bones & it can also affect the related joints.

The rush by some vets to castrate & spay all dogs is not for the health of the dog/bitch, it is used as a contraceptive & a replacement for responsible dog ownership-a straying neutered dog/bitch isn't going to reproduce(in the case of dogs sterility is not immediate & no vet will give an actual time-scale for when sterility occurs). Hardly the fix it all it is claimed to be.

I'm not against neutering dogs/bitches(my Jessie will be spayed next year)but I'm against rushing to get it done asap. The RSPCA are neutering at 8 weeks for dog puppies & 10 for bitches :-O The results of this I have seen are continued puppy behaviour to at least 18 months(the oldest dog I've seen that was done this early by the RSPCA) He still acts like an 8 week old puppy, which may be endearing to the owners, but it's a b nuisance to other dog owners to have a fully growth dog pestering them like a baby puppy !

> Not one dog has ever had its growth affected, it has grown and matured in exactly the same way as any left entire.

How do you know this ? Have you have the dogs x rayed to check on the closure of the growth plates, joints or bone density ?

Testicular cancer is a very rare cancer in dogs & as Barbara has written Prostate Cancer is far more common & occurs in both entire & neutered dogs.

I've had dogs for over 50 years & have yet to lose one to Testicular Cancer, however I do have several friends who have lost dogs(both entire & neutered)to Prostate Cancer & the majority are castrated(including 5 in the States that were castrated under 13 weeks of age)

> Unless you have a good show speciman that can further a breed the resposible thing for you, and your dog is to get it nuetered

Why is that ? Do you presume all entire dogs have a rampant desire to reproduce ? That they will escape at ever opportunity to mate bitches ? Are all owners of non breeding males irresponsible allowing their dogs to reproduce at will ?

IMHO you are wrong, very wrong in fact , my males are all entire & will remain so. I have opted for the Suprelorin implant for my oldest male BC & it has worked perfectly-when my bitch was in season & pestering him to mate her-he totally ignored what she was offering him & continued to treat her as if she was not in season.

Do not tar all entire non breeding dog owners with the same brush, we don't all allow out males to have free access to in season bitches & neither do the dogs suffer from not being able to mate-what they have never had they will never miss.

As an aside, I have had one castrated dog(done pre puberty on medical grounds)he did growth more than his male siblings & he still tried to mate the season bitches we had(whilst he was with my parents not me)& they would offer themselves to him the same as they would to an entire dog !

I really have started quite an interesting feed here :) Thank you all for opinions and suggestions. I now think that I will wait to see how Mason develops, as he is still a baby and I loved 'if its not broke, dont fix it' how true, take each day as it comes! I think that (as very much a novice dog owner) everyone's situation is different and I am very thankful for all of the help and advise as requested, from both sides of the fence!

Vikki

He has just discovered 'cocking his leg' and now walks take an extra 20minutes :) Im soo proud!

> He has just discovered 'cocking his leg' and now walks take an extra 20minutes :) Im soo proud!

The novelty will wear off, LOL!!!

There is absolutely no reason to let him do it whenever eh wants.  Allow him to empty his bladder when you start your walk, and then keep walking briskly until you think you might want to let him go in another appropriate place.  Do not let him cock on peoples gateposts etc.

We have a male Labrador who is six years old and intact. I did discuss castration with the vet, but we decided against. Strangely, in my house my husband was pro having the dog "done" and I was against! Glad I didn't though, as he has no behavioural issues, is as friendly to other dogs as can be, and when a bitch on heat waved her rear end at him, he backed away and wanted nothing to do with her. When he later encountered two other bitches on heat (very naughtily brought to class) he just wanted to sniff them, but nothing else.

We also have a Bichon Frise bitch who is 3 years old. She is my young daughter's dog, so both dogs live in same house. We made the decision after talking to the vet at length to have her spayed at six months. This was to avoid any mating between the two of them, as having said that the Lab shows no interest I could not watch them all the time. I was not prepared to ship one of the dogs off to my mother's for the Bichon's season either, so we did the only responsible thing we could.

I do think that neutering is a personal thing that you have to look at the evidence about, listen to opinions but not be dictated to, and finally, make a decision that suits your dog in your situation. It obviously stirs strong feeling, and most show people are dead set against early neutering. Not a criticism by the way, just an observation.:)

I can see the point in the USA where they have horrendous problems of pushing neutering for the vast majority of dogs, but to paraphrase what someone said earlier in the thread, if it ain't broke, and you think you have a good chance of keeping it from getting broken, then don't fix it.

>It obviously stirs strong feeling, and most show people are dead set against early neutering.

Not necessarily show people, but agility people, because it affects the development of the body and there is evidence that it increases the likelihood of ligament damage.

>if it ain't broke, and you think you have a good chance of keeping it from getting broken, then don't fix it.

It can be likened to being involved in a RTA. If you ever go out in a car you know there's a risk of another vehicle hitting you; however you can minimise the risk by driving responsibly. If you consider even the smallest of risk to be unacceptable you never travel in a vehicle.

Likewise the risk of your dog causing unwanted litters. If you behave responsibly the risk is negligable, and less than the surgical risk to the dog's health.