Hello , can anyone tell me whether there is any justification in any circumstance to resort to using a shock collar. Does everyone on here hate them or can they be useful in certain circumstances.
The reason I ask is that I hate any type of punishment and try really hard to only use + reinforcement in my training but I am really struggling with the fact I can't stop my 6mnth old Schnauzer running off immediately he is off the lead after a scent or sheep or rabbit.He has good recal at home and I use treats to reward him for coming back  but as soon as he anticipates the reward of running off is bigger than a treat , I have no chance.I am wondering ( goes against everything I believe in though ) that would it be kinder to use a schock coller on him once or twice than having a life spent on the lead.
Can anyone help as I really would like to train this problem to resolve itself in another more knider and positive way but I am a loss.
Thankyou

What about a remote spray collar and a long lead.
No pain but a shocking factor of a surprise spray that might just be enough to break his concentration on the smell he has got up his nostrils.
Never used one myself so I really do not know if they work but I remember reading from somewhere that with some dogs they are very effective.

To me it sounds as though you have to start fromthe beginning, get your dog on a long lead and don't allow him free running until you can be sure he's safe.  Don't forget that he is still a baby.

I don't want to highjack the thread but is there any difference between a buzz collar and an electric shock collar?  I was speaking to someone last week who mentioned a buzz collar that vibrates but I didn't get into it with her as I had a feeling it might be the same as the shock collars.

I think you are referring to a vibro collar, which are used generally for deaf dogs, which are only used to get a dogs attention, not to shock. Its a small vibration that enables you to then give the dog a command. If used correctly they are a great tool in training a deaf dog

thanks for that Mahonc, it was someone who does agility but that is a bit more reassuring.

Hello , can anyone tell me whether there is any justification in any circumstance to resort to using a shock collar. Does everyone on here hate them or can they be useful in certain circumstances.
The reason I ask is that I hate any type of punishment and try really hard to only use + reinforcement in my training but I am really struggling with the fact I can't stop my 6mnth old Schnauzer running off immediately he is off the lead after a scent or sheep or rabbit.He has good recal at home and I use treats to reward him for coming back  but as soon as he anticipates the reward of running off is bigger than a treat , I have no chance.I am wondering ( goes against everything I believe in though ) that would it be kinder to use a schock coller on him once or twice than having a life spent on the lead.
Can anyone help as I really would like to train this problem to resolve itself in another more knider and positive way but I am a loss.
Thankyou

no offence intended, but how good is your timing when training?
do you get him cued onto treats before he tracks a scent, for example?
even before you let him off lead?

if our dogs 'even look' as they are about to track a scent, and we dont want this, we use our queue word for treats, then scatter the treats instantly, so they can scent them out instead.
we have trained them to be allowed to run after scents in certain areas, knowing they will come back in due course.

maybe getting a trainer to give you a one on one session, acting as an objective person looking in from the outside, might be helpful pair of eyes?

i would also say its early days yet, hes only 6 monhts, and he is now just entering his first flush of  independant maturity.
before this, most training was unconditioned puppyhood, and it's not uncommon to have to re-do this training in an conditioned way, once they reach around 6 months.

Thanks for all these suggestions ,no offence taken atall , more suggestions and pointing out my errors the better :-)  I do have pretty good timing when I do it BUT I think I may be looking it at from a reactionary point of view rather than pre emptive , thankyou , hadn't thought of that before .I tend to just take off lead or open gate and he's gone ...so do you mean I should be doing some work with him on the lead , get him focusing on me first then let off lead ?
I will also look into finding someone who can help me with this , how do I go about finding a good trainer or behaviorist ?

Thanks

Hi Otis-a good dvd to get that will help you is The Really Reliable Recall by Leslie Nelson-she has used her methods successfully on her sighthounds and its all positive and reward based.You can get it from http://www.positiveanimalsolutions.co.uk/shopwelcome.html
Its helped me a lot with my papillon.Good luck.

Thankyou , I have just ordered it.I will give anything a go to stay in the + re training region. Thanks.

It's amazing just how much you can train using positive methods. Take a look at this site here:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/behaviour-training/why-wont-my-dog-come-back.html

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/behaviour-training/name-calling-how-to-get-your-dog-to-respond-every-time.html

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/behaviour-training/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing.html

The method given to stop chasing works very well indeed, but it's all in the training :)

Good luck!

Lindsay
x

Hi,

I would suggest you go back to basics for a while and use a long lead letting him go away from you then call him back saying 'come' and reward him or even leave a long lead on him rather than let him off, at least then you can grab the lead or stand on it if he goes to run off.
I always take cheese out with me and give my TT treats before she goes off the lead, then she knows i've got them. Also inever let her off the minute she's in a field, i always walk for a few minutes so she's calm and isn't expecting to get excited the second you've reached the field. Make your pup sit down before letting him off and reward him rather than having an over excited pup just waiting to run off the second the lead is removed.
When he is off the lead call him back as soon as he runs alittle way ahead and reward, keep doing this for the whole time he's off the lead and say your command for him to come back then reward. Never let him off and wait till you want to put him back on th lead to call and reward as he will soon learn that returning to you means end of fun. Keep practising the recall in the house and garden so he gets used to the word your using for recall and carry some treats round with you at all times even if your only sat down and call him over to you.  Also try and get him to sit when he comes back before he gets the reward and practice touching him, this will make it easier to get the lead back on when your ready.
Find some more training classes for you pup that will continue the training you've done so far. there are plenty of classes tofollow on the puppy ones and keep your dog well trained.
hope this helps,best of luck.    

Make sure your pup looks at you before you let him off the lead, teach him to look at you at critical moments, as the delay for him to look back and check with you before haring off into the distance is all you need to call him back.
Use a long lead to train him against distractions, he can come back when there is no distraction now, but if there is a distraction he forgets himself, so you need to start again (short lead, holding by long lead, trailing long lead) for every distraction, first when the distraction is far away, then bringing him nearer to the distraction but go through the whole process again.
Good luck!

Nothing to add really, there's been lots of good advice already, but just wanted to say your not alone.
With my youngster I worked really hard from day one, and he has always had a brilliant recall, in fact we often got comments form other people wishing their dogs were as good.  Now at 11 months he has suddenly developed selective hearing and I have had to get out the long line again.

I had to smile this morning, two lovely gentlemen I speak to often, chuckled when they saw Hugo on his lead. One said they were talking about myself and my boy the other day and wondered when the honeymoon would be over, he said that now is the time lasting relationship are built and to enjoy it. :-)

Try not to get too frustrated, keep working on it and this phase will pass.

i have one bitch i do the 'really reliable recall' with-avail on dvd, she comes back instantly when i shout cheese but you have to watch her and call as she goes to run- if she sees a squirrel and is already running i dont think it will work. my other bitch wears a remote shock collar, i have spent 6 years trying to train her but she still chases bikes/joggers and barks at dogless men. so in the end i sucumbed to buying one, for her own safety really. i am worried if she scares someone she may be pts! anyway, she has worn it about a month but so far only one bike has whizzed past and she chased it and i zapped but she didnt feel it as it was on low setting. so now i have turned it up but she hasnt been naughty yet! it has a noise to warn her first which i use when i shout no and then i zap. so i really dont know if it works yet but she couldnt feel it on the lowest setting so i dont see it as cruel. they are both standard schnauzers and have a high prey drive.

> has worn it about a month but so far only one bike has whizzed past and she chased it and i zapped but she didnt feel it as it was on low setting. so now i have turned it up but she hasnt been naughty yet!

Putting aside weather it's cruel to use a shock collar for a minute, using a shock collar can create a negative association with anything that the dog can see/hear/smell at the time it gets the shock, there is no guarantee the dog will think "I got zapped because I chased the bike". You could end up teaching your dog to be fearfull of anything it sees/hears/smells when it gets a zap, or worse, feeling so threatened it feels the need to defend itself from whatever was on it's mind the instant it got zapped (ie, saw a dog/person at the moment it got zapped and now thinks all dogs/people are nasty and needs to be avoided or attaked before they cause the 'zapping' again).

Please, if you want to get her out of the habbit of chasing things like this, get a good behaviourist to help you do so using reward-based methods.

i have tried 'reward based methods' with this dog for 6 years, a behaviourist is a nice thought but i couldnt afford it and im sure it would make no difference. dont you think i have tried the really reliable recall with her as well? it works for my other dog but not this one as all dogs are different. please keep your lectures to yourself. this is a LAST RESORT and if it caused  a negative reaction ie, she jumped up and bit someone or cowered on the floor i wouldnt use it again. i love this dog like my children and would never hurt her on purpose. some people would already have had her pts for her aggression but i would never do that and the reason i am using it is for her own safety. i have ummed and arrrred about it for about 2 years before i finally bought one and its an expensive one with remote so i can control when to use or not use it

Thanks everyone of you , all great advice.Have have clicked on those links and found the info on them really thought provoking. I have done several recall training sessions today with Fin in the garden.I am starting to realise I have made a mistake .Because he is in a pack with 3 other dogs , I think he sees them as more valuable them me.Whilst right from having him I took him out on his own up to my yard where I have horses but his character was very different when he's on his own , much more subdued.When hes with the other dogs he's a crazy looney .I don't think I have done enough ' training ' sessions when he's been on his own.He doesn't seem to have as much confidence. I am now going to try and start to take him some more fun places , such as the park on his own and see if I can get him associating me with fun things too , rather than just my other dogs.I will also carry on with the recall and read the several books I have bought on dogs chasing ect.It's great to just have some more ideas on how to deal with this situation and feel much more positive now.I will get a really long rope and build up to using it , just hope he doesn't keep getting it stuck .

Thanks everyone .
If any of you want to see my other dogs have a look at my web page www.quarrystables.piczo.com

( I haven't added fin yet , maybe do it this evening )

Thanks again...

Great links - am always looking for info on stopping chasing - I live near and walk majorly near moors on which there are horses, cattle and sheep - lots of.  I hate keeping my dogs on the lead but cerainly don't want to risk them chasing/worrying sheep esp and certainly not getting shot at!
I've not read the stop chasing article thoroughly yet but think I've got the gist - the training and focus on a ball works fine with my collie and did with my collie/GSD.  Can/could walk them to heal off lead through fields full of frollicking lambs etc.  Daren't even try it with my Elkhound.  Have introduced her quietly to different animals whilst she's on the lead but frankly scared to death of letting her off.  Her 'prey drive' is very high yet she's no interest in balls etc.  Any advice would be very welcome - especially from breed specialists, I hate not allowing her off lead in these areas and it spoils some walks for me - I don't go as far in the hills as I used to so I can give her plenty of off lead time first in safer areas.

Sorry for high-jacking the post but hope any answers may help OP too.

but she couldnt feel it on the lowest setting so i dont see it as cruel

The Kennel Club most definitely disagrees with you.Here's a recent quote from the KC from their website:
"Pain and fear are not humane methods by which to train a dog. There are many effective positive training methods which train dogs quickly, easily and reliably, with absolutely no fear, pain, or damage to the relationship between the owner and the dog. With these methods available there is no justification for electric shock training devices."
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2392/23/5/3

the KC dont live with Elly. they also think there is nothing wrong with squashed face pugs and bulldogs and over wrinkled skin in bassets. just because they have changed a few words on their breed standards doesnt mean they care about dogs health. it took 50 years to squash up bulldogs faces, will it take 50 years to unsquash it? however, im not getting into an argument about 'that' programme or ethics of the kc but i will take what they say with a pinch of salt thank you

i have tried 'reward based methods' with this dog for 6 years, a behaviourist is a nice thought but i couldnt afford it and im sure it would make no difference. dont you think i have tried the really reliable recall with her as well?

Could you not leave her on a long line so that she is always under your control - far kinder than an electric shock collar. I now walk one of my rescues almost permanently on a long line unless I am somewhere where I have all round visibility because his recall is great as long as I spot any distractions before he does, if I am slow he is off like a rocket and disappears off into the distance. I would rather have him on a long line and know I am not going to risk him getting lost or injured than let him run free and possibly end up in trouble. I would never use a shock collar on him or any other dog.

this is a LAST RESORT and if it caused  a negative reaction ie, she jumped up and bit someone or cowered on the floor i wouldnt use it again.

But by that time it would be too late anyway - if she is aggressive then perhaps she should be on a lead all the time.

> im not getting into an argument about 'that' programme or ethics of the kc

I don't think you can reasonably cast such aspersions and then deny people the right to challenge them.  The KC did not not develop the modern Bulldog, breeders did and I think if you read the exchanges that the KC have had with the Clubs long before "that" programme you will see this even more clearly.

Personally I would not want to use one, but the owner of a GSD who is a litter sister to one of mine did use one, to deter her from chasing cars/wheeels. She resorted to it for the dog's safety more than anything. I understand that it did stop her chasing cars.

> however, im not getting into an argument about 'that' programme or ethics of the kc

then why bring it up?

> the KC dont live with Elly

no but i am sure they can appreciate that she has nerve endings and can experience pain.

> I understand that it did stop her chasing cars.

A more responsible alternative would be to have not allow the dog off lead where there were cars.

>please keep your lectures to yourself

Sorry tina s, I didn't intend to come accross as if I was lecturing you (I made a point of not talking about the cruelty aspect of shock collars), I was trying to point out what can go wrong with them - the negative association.

>if it caused  a negative reaction ie, she jumped up and bit someone or cowered on the floor i wouldnt use it again.

The negative association would already be made, that is the whole point of an e-collar, they are supposed to install a negative association (and they do this very quickly, it may only need the one zap), the problem is you have no control as to what the dog makes the negative association with.

>some people would already have had her pts for her aggression

well done to you for not giving up on her, but aggression is even more of a reason NOT to use an e-collar, as there is a much higher chance of it causing an aggressive response from your dog, to whatever she gets the negative association with.

I really am not intending to have a go at you, just trying to point out the dangers of using an e-collar.

the KC dont live with Elly

Shame -as she woudn't have to deal with a shock collar then.