Hi All,
Please Advise my 4 year old English bully Bitch has started chewing up it all started over last 2 weeks she was spayed begining of feb, and since then shes been nasty to my other dogs snaping at them for no reason(this is unlike her)
now to top it all shes started chewing the phone wire we have just had bt round last week to rewire it costing £220. and the COWS DONE IT AGAIN!
iv just been down their sticking all the wires back together but it looks a right mess and shes also riped up the lino i realy have had it with her she has a nice cosy bed plenty of toys raw hide chews and she comes on the school run every morning iv had her in the front garden with me since 9.30 am while i been cutting back the hedges we had a play with her ball, i came in made a cuppa at 12.30pm gave her lunch i went and had a sit down and she went and chewed the blooming wire clean out of the wall, im at my wits end now any ideas why shes doing this cos im at a loss as to knowing whats going on,

I had my bitch spayed a few weeks ago now and she behaved the same with my other dogs. Everything is back to normal now though and i presume she just didn't feel herself after the operation, it's a big thing and i'm sure it takes a while before they feel themselves again.
I gave the dogs time out from each other if my TT got funny. Also i think once they start feeling a little better then they have alot of excess energy so get board even if they have toys, don't forget they havn't had the same  walks off the lead for a while and don't understand why they can't run round.
If things continue i'd have a word with the vet just incase there's an underlying problem after the operation.   

got ya i understand about her being a bit nasty but the chewing i dont get it we have a good walk thu a very long park to get to my sons school in the mornings we leave at 8.30 and dont get back till 9.30 she chases my 11 year old son on his bike most of the way i rearly use a lead on her as shes good at staying with me or my son shes just happy running but today im more confussed than ever as i had her in the garden till lunch time normaly she'd be wacked out and crashed in her bed after but soon as my back was turned she destroyed the wire i just cant see any reason for it, may just book her in at vets to check her out but she was spayed 3rd of Feb and has had her check up and all was fine so i cant see why she would do this,

It does seem unusual that a four year old dog starts chewing things again,hopefully some else will have an idea why.
My youngest still chews things but then she's only ten months old so to be expected but i have to say my 4 year old can be trusted with anything, well apart from more tempting things like food.
good luck, you have to have eyes in the back of your head sometimes. 

to true about the eyes in the back of my head i can honestley say i would have trusted my Ellie 100% anywhere in the house before this started last week, my rottie whos also 4 years old will go into the bin and drag things out given a chance he's a sneaky git but my Ellie you could leave a chicken carcus in that bin and she wouldnt bother it,even if you left her alone with the bin in the kitchen she'd be fine,
the rotties just a cheaky sod, but dont chew other than head in the bin if you let him, so thats why im gob smacked realy at ellie, will take her vets because this is not right not like her at all, she did used to chew but was long ago and i thought she'd grown out of it,

do you have space in your house for a crate or pen for when you can't keep an eye on her? Containment might be the key until you get to the root of it.

As you know, she's had her womb and ovaries removed and a bit like women at menopause her hormones will be all over the shop and that can affect each individual in different ways, both dogs and humans. We must not forget that hormones influence mood, energy levels and other areas in the brain to do with body heat control, appetite and so on. It's not just that she's had a major operation, her whole body and brain has to adjust. It affects some much more than others.

Her progesterone levels will probably have fallen, that being a hormone that generally has a calming effect on behaviour (it's one reason why some vets would not advocate spaying a bitch that shows dominant/aggressive behaviour before the age of 6 months, because spaying would likely lead to increased aggression). It could be that your girl's hormones need to settle and her body adjust, but it might be worth talking to your vet to see if he can give her something to help her in the meantime.

The chewing might just be her way of coping with feeling a bit different/out of sorts- it is something dogs do to relax and, as you say, she used to be a chewer.

i have a large cage which is where Her 11 month old son sleeps , i could buy him a new bed and see how he takes to that , as he dont like any other dog going in his bed i dont have to lock the door on him he comes and goes as he pleases but he sees it as HIS bed all 3 dogs have their own beds and i could get another crate for her she'd be ok in it as long as she got her padded bottom out of her bed, and yes i would haave room for the both crates but it seems a shame to have to lock her away like a puppy, shes 4 years old soon , i thought i was done with all this bad behaviour ever my 11 month old aint that bad,

well Thank you freelancerukuk that does make sense i feel shes reverted back a little to a few of her puppy behaviours like the chewing , and now that i think about it she seems alot more free spirited on her walks latley, sprinting away a bit more than she would normally.
As a puppy, well up untill she was about 2 years old really she would run up to anyone wagging her tail madly looking for attention she would jump in your lap and lay down for a belly rub if you were picnicing in the park with your family, then  she grew out of all of that and i was the center of her attention and she'd run but always payed mind to me and not strangers , now i feel shes a little more like eger to stray, but in a sly way like she thinks i dont know that she wants to go lick that mans hand who sitting on the bench  in the park, so i do get that she may be going thu a confusing time hormonal (me and her both ) if this is the case any idea how long it could last she was spayed 3rd of Feb , i surpose it was only nearly 3 months ago and it takes time for the body to adjust, do you think it will get better with time?
was going to vets with cos of the behaviour anyway so will see what they advise thanks what your saying all sounds very likley, hope to have my good girl back soon, xx

Hormones can take quite a while to adjust and individual cases can vary quite a lot. I would take her to the vet though and see if he/she has any ideas. Good luck.

For the time being, I would cage her while I was not around to supervisor her. It isn't funny when they do things like this and it makes you very angry. Also the cost. Do it before you feel you have had enough of her, and can't cope with her anymore. If she has her chews in her cage, she should be fine.
Being a women that had to have the operation because or an ovarion cyst. You are never the same again. It is falace. People do not tell you the truth. even with H.R.T it does not put things all right again.
She will never be as she was.

Denese

Denese, constructive help is required here... its such a shame that you feel the OP might not cope, or feel that she has had enough of her..

> Being a women that had to have the operation because or an ovarion cyst. You are never the same again. It is falace. People do not tell you the truth. even with H.R.T it does not put things all right again.
>

This is a certainly not true, everyone deals with this type of thing in many different ways, its sad that you feel you will never be the same again, but to make a sweeping statment like this is unfair, and incorrect.

I think the OP has had some very helpful and useful information and help from others.. and I am sure she will find that with time and patience things will settle..

It is not ok if a dog chews in a cage unsupervised as there is a possibility of choking and so should not be left with anything that may cause this.

The only person that should be angry is you as the owner really and not aim it at the dog as she will only chew if there is the opportunity to do so. Part of the responsibilty of dog ownership it to take the rough and smooth which includes damage by chewing (trust me I have had my fair share with four Lab puppies ! ) We all go through down times when we have dogs but it is all about picking yourself up and looking at postive ways to solve the problems which is why the OP has posted on here, to find ways to stop her behaviour.

I have had four bitches spayed with out any issues concerning their temperment and the OP girl will settle down in time once her body gets used to the changes so saying she will never be the same is a sweeping statement Denese do you not think ?

I have had a hysterectomy at 39 and I am the same person as before just minus a few bits of me. It is not a falacy at all that you will be the same as it is only in the minority of people that suffer with hormonal imbalances for any great length of time which can happen anyway with a natural menopause. I am sorry if you seem to have suffered because of your the post Op recovery but perhaps you should seek out some more help on the issues as there are plenty of therapies available.

Lis, it is a medical fact that when both ovaries are removed medically before your menopause. A Medical Menopause is not the same as natural Menopause.
It is not a sweeping statement it is fact.
I was told by all the profesionals it would be the same. they lyed. To remove all hormones in an hour causes a lot of problems. Before saying I have made a sweeping statement, please do Medical research. Your body never get used to it, you have to lean to except it. Have you had one?
Animals can't tell us they have to get on with it.
All my pups have not chewed to this extent as I am with them all most of the time. I had heard of one Samoyed that had bit an live electic wire and blow its face off. I have only been using cages since I have bitches and dogs that live indoors. To protect the bitches when in season. A puppy should not chock in its cage, if it has the proper chews, mine have meat filled bones. They would have a job to chock on them.
Sorry, if some times I am a little blunt, but! I will not lie.

Denese

Denese your Doctors told you it was the same and it is so long as you are managed properly and given the correct medication to manage the body and it's reactions through the transition. If yours didn't work then it is down to bad post operative management. So they didn't lie it just wasn't managed properly that is the reason. as I said if you are still suffering go back and ask to have your situation reviewed as there are so many things they can do to help.

I will leave the medical research to my Consultants as they are the ones that are experienced and have been taught to perform such proceedures and manage medical conditions.

As for puppies even with meat filled bones there is a risk of choking if left unattended. Be as blunt as you like as it doesn't bother me in the slightest but it may others :-)

>To remove all hormones in an hour causes a lot of problems. Before saying I have made a sweeping statement, please do Medical research. Your body never get used to it, you have to lean to except it.

The research shows that a human ovario-hysterectomy (spaying) pre-menopause is no different to that undergone by a bitch. There is a sudden reduction in hormones as you say but the body adapts. In many cases (human) the removal of organs that were causing problems mean the woman feels very much better afterwards than she did before! If you are still not feeling right then you should return to your doctor because you have not received the right follow-up treatment.

> It is not a sweeping statement it is fact.
> I was told by all the profesionals it would be the same. they lyed. To remove all hormones in an hour causes a lot of problems. Before saying I have made a sweeping statement, please do Medical research. Your body never get used to it, you have to lean to except it. Have you had one?
>

In a word.. Yes... I have had one.. sadly mine was not simply down to cysts.. I had Ovarian Cancer.. so as well as doing ALL my research, I have also been through it...

And yes.. your body does get used to it... If managed correctly

> Sorry, if some times I am a little blunt, but! I will not lie.
>
>

Blunt is fine.. sweeping and generalising statements are not... that could put the fear of God into some people.. Millions of women go through this every day... some deal with it easily, some not so easily.. but we can never generalise..

The OP was looking for advice, and I cannot see anywhere in your reply to her, good informed advice..

That said, it would be good to get the thread back on topic for the OP... :-)

> To remove all hormones in an hour causes a lot of problems.

There are huge numbers of hormones in your body - to remove them would be impossible. And even when ovaries are removed, it does not remove all the hormones, it removes the ovaries - so no more hormones are produced by the ovaries - but some sex hormones are produced by other glands in the body anyway. To be honest you have lost me.

Hi Chelzeagirl,

Ok I am going to come at this from a slightly different view point as I am a practitioner of Chinese Medicine and therefore see the energetics of the body very differently, whether it be human or canine.

Like I said this is a TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) perspective on things.

Having a Hysterectomy or spaying a bitch severs what is called the Bao Mai. Which is an energetic pathway between the uterus (and ovaries) and the heart. The communication between these two organs is essential for peace of mind (the Shen) to settle and for you to feel at home again. This is the same for your girl. Now after an operation like this the Bao Mai can find another pathway and reconnect, thus enabling you to settle and feel somewhat normal again. This, of course, can take some time. On the odd ocasion the energy (or Qi) does not reconnect and thus causing permanent symptoms of unrest. This is where treatment can help as it will re-balance the body enabling the reconnection of the Bao Mai and the settling of the Shen. Bringing your girl back to the girl she was previously.

I have treated many people (not animals unfortunately) for post op problems and it always comes down to the same thing. Severed meridians causing unbalanced qi.

Now I know this is going to be controversial and some may not agree or think Acupuncture doesn't work, but I have treated many people over the years and I know it works.

Really I am just trying to give you another view point and another way you can look at what is happening to your girl and maybe help you understand why she is acting this way.

Worth looking into at the very least.

The fact that open heart surgery is performed in China using only acupuncture certainly convinces me of its value! Your post makes sense. After any trauma the body needs time to stabilize- I have no problem with your explanation.

To chelzeagirl - how close to her season was she spayed? That can have an effect on post-op behaviour.

what a really interesting post littlemissdrago, that has put a new perspective on things for me :)

i have a friend who had a premenopausal hysterectomy and they said she would menopause early, which she did but was on HRT straight after, even though i think she had an ovary left. she has to take HRT for life i think. if you had it all removed with no hormone replacment, no wonder you felt bad

> what a really interesting post littlemissdrago, that has put a new perspective on things for me

Anytime :-)

Just out of interest talking about accupuncture how come it works on some people yet not on others ?

There are a few reasons this could happen.

Unfortunately, as with anything, there are good and bad practitioners out there.

Also

Qi follows the mind... blocked mind, blocked qi. Now a good practitioner should be able to recognise this and treat the blocked mind above anything else thus probably treating the root cause of the problem.

Also

Acupuncture can take several treatments, and occasionally people don't have the patience, money, time to continue with as many treatments as needed. Again a good practitioner should advise in the consultation that this is a case as assess the person and possibly give an indication of how many treatments are required, although this is extremely difficult.

Also, and this is a big one...

Acupuncture aims at treating the root cause of a problem, thus eliminating the symptoms. Such as digestive tract issues causing ear ache, but it can't stop a person from eating the wrong things that causes their digestive tract issues.

Another example... and this one happens a lot... Acupuncture can treat qi stagnation caused by stress, resulting in migraines, but it can't make someone quit the job that is causing the stress. In this instance it can be preventative and manage the issue, but never cure it.

Do you see what I mean?

Ok so if the mind I blocked how do you determine that ? If somebody is going for treatment surely they are wanting to get a problem resolved and so their mind would be open ?

I see that the cause needs to be addressed in alot of cases where the symptoms are a result of a certain situation eg stressful job as you gave as an example.

So in animals there mind could not be blocked as they are not able to understand why they are having pins stuck into them so this senario would not be relevant ?

> Ok so if the mind I blocked how do you determine that ?

Correct diagnosis. When a pateint sees a pracitioner they can assess and diagnose in many ways; tongue, pulse, colour, smell as well as what the person has to say and their medical history, family medical history, childhood illnesses etc.

Of course a lot of this is not relevant to dogs as they can't tell us what is wrong and you can't assess their pulses etc.

> If somebody is going for treatment surely they are wanting to get a problem resolved and so their mind would be open ?>

Not always, some people (not dogs) come in for treatments because they have been forced/recommended/asked (whatever) to give it a try, this does not mean they are initially open to it. Even people that like the idea of how it works are still not advocates. They still need proof.

> So in animals there mind could not be blocked as they are not able to understand why they are having pins stuck into them so this senario would not be relevant ?

An animal's mind can be blocked just as much as a human's, just in a different way and caused by different things. It's not that their mind is blocked to the idea of having needles stuck in them, or that they don't believe Acupuncture will work on them. Their mind will be blocked due to something that has happened to them, or even because of the envirnonment they are in. For example if a dog was taken to a vet and they absolutely hated the vet and associated being there with pain and suffering, their mind and energy is blocked through the stress of the situation and therefore anything that happens to them (in their mind) there has to be bad.

It is very interesting so how do you tell who is a good practitioner against a bad one then as most people would not know what they are supposed to do and what questions etc should be asked ? Are there any sort of guidelines that are issued by a Governing Body to guide people through seeing a Practitioner ?

Hi their some interesting post's thanks for all you advice Jeangenie my girls last season was November so she would infact be due around now i had her spayed in Feb, maybe its the fact that she would be due now thats set her off ,
i was talking to women next door this afternoon just outside my door and the cows done it again she is pulling all the tacs out of the wall thats keeping the wire stuck to the skirting board the taped up piece of wire she had yesterday that i fixed is ok , but their was blood on some of the tacs she must be chewing the nails i have looked in her mouth she seems fine and all tacs are accounted for iv nailed them all back in none were missing but its getting silly im borrowing a cage of a friend later today wen she gets in from work and will cage her till this fase ends  before she hurts her self or i fear she could do herself some real harm. as for the wire its hanging on in their ;-D

Yes an incredibly interesting subject... I could speak about it forever, so do forgive me if I 'go on'... it has been known!!

Well the governing body in the UK is the British Acupuncture Council. www.acupuncture.org.uk (am I allowed to put that in?) But they are not the governing body for Vets using Acupuncture. 'People' Acupuncturists are not allowed to treat animals, you have to be a fully qualified vet and acupuncturist.

There is the ABVA (The Association of British Veterinary Acupuncturists) www.abva.co.uk (again, do tell me if that isn't allowed). They aren't a governing body as such, but they do represent Vets that want to and have trained to be Veterinary Acupuncturists. And their members are trained and have qualified with them. They also have a practitioner search on their website.

Now this really is all academic, just because they are trained does not make them good. But this is where your instinct will come in. OK here is what I would want to look for and the questions I would ask:

What qualifications do you have?
Where did you train?
What methodology do you use to diagnose?
What treatment principle do you follow?
Do you study Chinese Medical Theory? This one is very important if you are getting an emotional problem treated.
How long have you been treating with Acupuncture?
What animals have you treated?
What species do you specialise in?
Do you have a current/past patient ('s owner) that I can speak to?

Any one unwilling to answer these questions may be either very new to this field or questionable. Oh just a quick note, just because they are new to Veterinary Acupuncture does not mean they are not good... they could be better than someone that has been doing it for years. Some people are just naturals.

Have a chat with them and get a feel for them. Ask if you can pay them a visit and have a chat with you and meet your dog.

I offer a free informal chat to any new potential patient, it gives them a feel for you, your practice and how they feel about Acupuncture. If they are nervous about treatment I stick a needle in them there and then (with their permission of course) to show them there is nothing to worry about. This way when they come back for treatment they don't have to worry about that 'first needle'.

You could also give the ABVA a call, they may have some quidelines for you.

ok so i think my dogs taken to doing her own needle work with my tacs from my wire, so can you tell me does it really work to stop people smoking?

sorry for me that is not the dog lol not that she smokes but hey who no's shes acting so wacky she may just start eating my fags, disgusting habbit i no but i do want to stop would it work and how much would it cost please?

> ok so i think my dogs taken to doing her own needle work with my tacs from my wire

Self medicating huh... smart girl... err... maybe not. LOL ;-)

As for whether Acupuncture helps with smoking, that's a tough one. I have had varying success with this and it's very difficult to give you any statistics as once someone has finished their course I may never see or hear from them again. Which could be a good or bad sign depending on how you look at it.

One thing I will say though is you have to be ready to stop. There are no miracle cures (even Acupuncture) I'm afraid and there would still be work to be done on your part. Acupuncture does alleviate withdrawal, relieve coughing and headaches and help to strengten the willpower... however it will not stop you from putting a cigarette in your mouth and lighting it if that's in your will to do that. Like I said, there would still be work to do on your part.

If you do go down that route, make sure your practitioner is trainined in NADA protocol.

As for cost, you'd have to ask your local practitioner, but I give reduced cost, higher frequency treatments using Auricular Acupuncture.

Hi Jeangenie,
My female doctor, has been excellent she has changed my HRT. I was well before, the op. it was that the cyst twisted. I thought it was pendicitus. I put on 2 stone in 8 weeks My dughters said I was vile. Quick tempered. You can't digest your food as well as you did. You get joint pains. No sex drive, (can course a problem if married) forgetfull,
Vaginal and urinary problems. Oestrogen is responsible for the control of the body temperature. with out it the thermonstat fails. Hair goes thin. Oestrogen appears to increase cullular in the brain. Gums bleed. Joints get stiff and muscles ace. Nails go brittle. I could go on. My doctor seen me weekly till I could except that, this was it. She changed my HRT that made it a little better.
I have a friend who's little girl was born with no overies bless her, she is 10 now and has been on H.R.T since she was 3yrs old to help her development. She was constantly sick at first just could not digest her food. After intensive investigation, this was found. After haveing everthing taken away. I feel for the poor girl.
I do get sickness on day every month, when my periods would have been due.

Denese

I think I may take up chewing LOL- got all of the symptoms and had them for years

To get back to this bitch I think the chewing may well be an expression of pain so a visit to the vet for a through investigation is called for before you use methods to make it possible to live with her. Undoubtedly something is wrong, if not physical then hormonal and the vet can give you tablets to help with that which, should you choose, you can gradually stop giving.