Hi all, I've just signed my older dog onto a gundog training course.  I've to take a canvas dummy, slip lead (leather or rope?) and whistle and lanyard.  This is all fine as everything can be ordered online and is pretty much of a muchness.   Oh, except what's preferable the Acme 210.5 or 211.5 whistle?

Anyway, I was wondering about a bag.  Can anyone recommend a neat lightweight one for the various bits above that we're going to need.  Looking at the sites around the ones I've seen appear quite large and I've been unable to find any measurements.  Any suggestions?

Thanks
Susie

Hi Susie.. Whistles are down to preference.. mine is 211.5, and the majority of people I work with/speak to go with the 211.5

I use rope slip leads, again personal preference.  Leather leads dont tend to do well in the wet and unless well looked after (loads of work IMO) they can harden/dry/crack

My bag is a Chapman Solway... 15x10x3ins. its large enough for me, and lightweight.. Mine is a single compartment..

I also use a 211.5 whistle and rope (well, nylon rope) slip lead.

You don't have to spend over £100 on a bag, something like this will do:

http://www.countrysupplies.com/item.asp?i=905

cough splutter.. have to add.. I agree.. dont spend a fortune on a bag.. I added that for measurements lol...

psst.. dont tell anyone.. I got my super bag in a charity shop while looking for puppy toys, for £3.00 :-)

Think I need to get looking in charity shops, see if I can find one too!

There's also this one which is a bit smaller

http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/item--Game-Training-Tack-Bag--medium-game-bag---dogs

and there's loads of different sizes/styles/colours on ebay ;-)

Don't get a bag thats too small, you will eventually regret it. You need one you can carry an assortment of retrieve items in. I got an old army surplus bag and then was bought a game bag as a present some years later. I carry several dummies, and various other items in the bag, including sometimes a "bolting hare" training device. Where I live we have lots of hares so my dogs need to be steady to hares running around.

We use hawking vests.  They sit snugly round your bum/tum, and don't swing into the dog's face when you go to receive a dummy from him.   You can get them for about £30 or so on Ebay.   Best thing since sliced bread!

Jo

Wow, thanks for all the replies.

Can't decide between the bag on canine concepts website or the hawking vests.  On canine concepts they had a smaller puppy size bag but it's probably true that I'll regret going too small and only want to replace it with something larger later.

It's exciting buying all the new stuff and I can't wait to get going - the course starts on 11 April.  A few weeks ago I sent away for a manual about gundog training and Chester seems to have taken to it quite well which is what spurred me on to sign him up for a course.  I've also been doing some work from the manual with my other little dog and he's sort of getting the idea. 

Anyway, thanks again.

Susie

Don't buy a bag that's too big either. If you like the work and end up picking up remember that pheasants are flipping heavy and the person with the biggest bag gets the most pheasants. I'm still listing to one side after carrying a bagful of birds this season. First gamefair of season I bought a smaller bag:-)
Hope you have fun on your course!

good luck on the course :-)

The vests are useful, but when I am out it training I find it useful to dump the bag where I can get to it and then I am not lugging the stuff all over the place.

My whistle, when I find it is a 210.5 and seems to be the one that's used by most at my gundog training.  Most gundog clubs usually sell the equipment themselves.  There are a few sites online that are fairly reasonable but I have to admit the gundog world is to expensive for me!

Have fun and enjoy it.  I've been taking my 3 year old for a while now and will shortly be taking her daughter, was hoping to take her to the next one but she's come into season.

Well, we've started the gundog training course and have been going for four weeks now.  I'm really enjoying the training and especially teaching Chester something new, but would love some advice if possible.

The obedience side of the training seems to be going quite well, but then I've been taking Chester to obedience classes for a while and he's reached quite a good standard - just need to continue working on the whistle.  Mind you, when OH isn't around as when we were out on Sunday he asked me to stop blowing the whistle as it was giving him a headache!  I'd only used it a couple of times at that stage.

One difficulty we have is with the focus.  The trainer has said that Chester should be looking straight at me but he looks more towards my neck/body rather than my face - not sure if this is because he's quite a shy dog.  She has said to stand in front of him and praise him when he so much as glances at me, also to wait for him to look at me before feeding, going out the door etc.  He's sort of getting the idea but I can see this is going to be a long slow process - any other suggestions as to how I can speed up the process or is it best to let him work it out without any input from me. 

Another problem we seem to be having is with the retrieve.  It's very hit and miss.  Sometimes he's really good but often he will happily run out to the dummy, pick it up and then start playing with it, totally ignoring my recall.

I thought that perhaps he can't really do the retrieve but the trainer said that he can, he is just getting bored.  Any ideas how I can make it more interesting for him.  This week I've been doing some training little and often while on walks and that seems to have helped, but any other suggestions.

We did have one success that really shocked and excited me.  Chester is not over keen on water and some days I take him and Dudley to a little woodland with a stream near to us and encourage them to go into the water to have a paddle.  The other day Chester went onto the bank on the other side - it's not very wide so I wasn't unduly worried about him going far.  Anyhow, yesterday after a couple of good retrieves earlier in the day, I thought I wonder if he'll get back a dummy from the other side of the stream, bit risky but I thought it's an old tatty dummy that we found so doesn't matter if we lose it and if I only practice his recall then so be it.  So I called him to heel and threw the dummy which fell slightly out of sight and blow me he only went through the water, searched and found the dummy and then brought it straight back to me!  I was so excited I was almost screaming! 

Was feeling quite despondent after the training at the weekend as everything seemed to go wrong, but yesterday has definitely bucked me up.

Susie

Weird how they often are better with water retrieves than almost anything else. My WSS dog is very hit and miss with retrieves, in that he may decide to bring it back part way but then enjoy a lap of honour, and will blink a blind retrieve--that is, he finds the dummy with no trouble, noses it (or has a sniff at the marker)and then doesn't proceed with the retrieve. When it comes to water he is a different dog. I had to smile the other day when our younger pup (a new swimmer and desperately keen to show the world he can fetch a stick out of the water) rushed squeaking all the way to the dummy, but wouldn't open his mouth to take the dummy and swam back. Diesel calmly got in the water, swam 10m to get it and brought it back perfectly. The one thing I keep reminding myself of is that it's me that has to learn to be absolutely consistent and tuned to the situation, and when I see handlers working their dogs I am just so impressed by the skill and deep awareness they use to get the very best out of their dogs. Good luck with the training!

Hi,

With reagrds to the eye contact, lots of shy dogs can be worried about making eye contact especially for more than a glance.  Do you clicker train?  I teach this as a specific training exercise, one way of doing that is to hold a treat in your closed hand and hold your hand out to the side, they will look towards the treat/hand, just keep it there, eventually they will wander what you are doing and look towards you, click and give them the treat.  You can get really good eye contact this way, it may take them a few seconds to look towards you or it may take minutes, just be patient. Use any situation you can to get eye contact and reward it lots.  To improve eye contact, I wait for eye contact before letting them off lead when out for a run, before giving them dinner, before getting out of the van etc.  This way it tends to become a default behaviour.

With reagrds to the retrieves, you could use a pencil case and pop some treats in it.  Maybe keep him on a long line so he can't dissapear and destroy the pencil case :-) Then when he returns the pencil case let him see you get the treats out and reward him.  That wat he knows there is a reward for bringing the toy back to you rather than him just getting the reward of playing with it by himself.

my tip for a dog tat wants to play with the dummy rather than return with it, is to run away as soon as he has it in his mouth,,,,,,,making lots of noise.....they cant resist coming to see what its all about!!

thanks karenclynes--I found clicker training didn't really do much for him because he isn't food-motivated in the least. I have a long line but have steered away from using it because I'm concerned that he will immediately see that once off the line it's back to playtime. I've been using a little 'alley way' type run that he can't get out of instead.

Yes, done this before now--lord knows what people think when they see us--who's that idiot with that poor dog???...:-)

Hi,

Clicker training doesn't just rely on food, it just needs a reward to be paired with the click so they understand that the click means a reward is coming and they can pair that reward with the behaviour they are being clicked for.  Though unless he has a problem with eating he will be able to be food motivated in some way, it just about finding the right food and starting off in a low distraction environment.  The main reasons dogs won't take food are, the rewards just aren't rewarding enough (raw/cooked liver with garlic, garlic sausage, beef, fish treats, primula cheese spread, peperami) are a few that are tempting, they are too stressed/distracted or just not hungry. My girls often have their entire dinner for training sessions, one of the previously wouldn't take food for training but now loves it.

With reagrds to the long line, it just to give you the option to use it as a back up should he try to dissapear the first time or two, if done right and got properly on que he should find it more rewarding to come back to you with the toy rather than playing on his own.  Again it doesn't have to be food, whatever floats his boat as a reward will do.

Thanks for your advice karenclynes.  Yes, I have done clicker training and Chester took to it really well, mainly because he's a very food oriented dog, so that would be an ideal way to train the eye contact.  Like you say, persevere and be patient.

It's good to hear that you do encourage the use of treats for retrieving, I was going to ask what the general feeling was.  The trainer has made it clear that she doesn't find the use of treats acceptable, which I find strange and know that Chester will do better and be much more interested if he gets a reward, especially cheese!  Although she did say that giving a treat may encourage the dog to drop the retrieve in order to get the treat, but maybe using the pencil case idea would get around this, do you think?

Thanks for all the encouraging replies.  Must say I'm enjoying the course but felt quite despondent last Saturday after training as it all seemed to go haywire.  Bless little Chester though he so wants to please and I know that I let him down - he's definitely the brains of our team.

Susie

Thanks Sam, I like this tip, and will give it a try.

Hi,

Some gun dog trainers I hear about still seem reluctant to use food as rewards but pretty much all the gun dog trianers I know do use food rewards.  If that what he loves then yes I would use that as a reward for him.  You know your dog and what will work for him so I would go with your instincts and at least try it.

With the pencil case, you may need to offer him a swap for the first time or two till her gets the idea that the treats come from inside the pencil case which he needs to give to you in order to get.  Have a play around and see what works.  The most important thing is that he enjoys doing what he's doing and if by using food he learns what you want and enjoys it then that's what I'd do.

That doesn't mean you'll have to use food after every retireve for ever more (though I would continue to reward intermitently once he has got the hang of things), you will just be teaching him initially what you want by using food to reward him.  Have fun :-)

Hi Jay, Did your dogs take to water from the start, or did you need to encourage them.  As I say Chester will go for a paddle and may be up to his knees but that's about it.  Any ideas how to progress from there?

BTW are WSS's Welsh Springer Spaniels (sorry for my ignorance).  I met my first one at this training course and couldn't believe how beautiful they are.  They are stunning.

Hi

I was thinking about the use of treats today and you're right it doesn't have to be forever.  For instance, I was thinking that when first teaching a sit I always used treats but now he'll sit with just the word and sometimes a tickle behind the ear and the odd treat for a good job.  I agree that using them intermittently once he has got the hang of it would be best.

Thanks again.

> Did your dogs take to water from the start, or did you need to encourage them

IME it is very much down to the individual dog, and I think in some cases maturity comes into it also. My youngest dog (11 Mo) loves water and always has, if there is any around he will find it and be in it, even loves the hose pipe.

One of my girls on the other hand is not quite as confident but gaining in confidence as she is maturing, she will be 3 in June, she would only paddle and did need a lot of patience and a lot of encouragement as a youngster, OH used to go in with her to support her if she panicked. She is now a lot happier in water, I think with some dogs it just takes a little longer.

,making lots of noise.....they cant resist coming to see what its all about!!

Just to add this is the trick I encourage my eldest son to use when he is having difficulty recalling the aforementioned very teenage 11MO boy, and this works very well for him.

How often are you doing retrieves?  You may actually be doing it to much.  Also another thing is wear some socks for a couple of days and then put one over the dummy, may want your dog to retrieve it more.  Luckily I have no problems with retrieves, it's the obedience side with mine that I have the problem with :)

Hi Schmuckers

Yes, they are Welshies, and both of them were extremely fastidious about water to begin with. I thought Diesel was going to be the first non-swimming WSS ever--he didn't go in over his toes till he was 7 months old and before that wasn't even that keen on walking in puddles, which makes life a little awkward at times given local weather patterns. He won't jump in, but that's good as far as I'm concerned, because you never know what's underneath the surface of a pond--people throw all kinds of dangerous stuff, in our area old fence posts with barbed wire still attached seems to be a speciality.

I actually got him swimming by taking him to a reasonably shallow ford. I waded into the middle and called him in after, sometimes with a dummy to make it more interesting, then tried to get him to come straight across to the other side--but he decided the convenience of the bridge was preferable. All I can say is that it takes time and don't force them. Our younger dog has learned a lot from Diesel, so if you know anyone with a confident swimmer take Chester our with them. Good luck, the day he decides swimming is for him you'll never get him out again!

thanks karenclynes--he is a very indifferent eater. We try all kinds of special treats--chicken, salmon, liver (I draw the line at putting tripe in my pocket!)--but the biggest treat is another dog. He is much better now and reasonably steady, mainly because he enjoys training with other dogs. We had a trip out recently at a working assessment and while he can't seriously compete, he does sharpen up just watching the others (I've just reread this sentence, and it applies to me at least as much as him).

Hi perrodeagua.  Thanks for taking the time to reply to me.

I try to do a couple of retrieves during walks most days - this sounds like it may be too many to keep him interested, do you think?  Would you suggest every couple of days instead?

The sock idea is a good one, I also bought a rabbit skin at training yesterday and will cover a couple of the dummies with it.

I've been working towards the Gundog Club grade one certificate and yesterday the trainer suggested that Chester may be ready to take the grade two test instead.  I'm a bit nervous about it and pointed out to her the problems with his retrieves.  She said that as he is the kind of dog that never goes very far from me (not in a clingy way, he just doesn't go far away and is always checking in with me) maybe he feels unsure that he's allowed to go away for retrieves and that could be the problem.  Does this sound feasible?  As I said I have done quite a lot of obedience work with him, maybe this has stifled him a bit.  The trainer feels that once he builds his confidence and realises he is allowed to leave me he will blossom.

We've got three weeks until the test and have been given quite a lot of homework to get there - directional stuff, memory retrieves etc!

BTW tried a couple of retrieves using treats earlier today and it worked quite well, so that's a forward step.

Hi Schmuckers,

I don't think a couple of retrieves per walk is too much, it's important not to over do things and always leave them excited and wanting more, you can guage from his reaction whether this is too much or not.  I normally do a few per walk with my non-retrieveing breed :-D, though we did just stick at one per walk for quite a while and build up on distractions etc. I mix it in with lots of other things so she doesn't get the chance to get bored and always make it as fun as possible, with her as someone already mentioned, lots of running in the opposite direction and making silly noises helped her enthusiasm for running with the item in her mouth. 

I don't know if I missed information or not, are you having problems with him actually picking up or is it just with him going off and playing with the dummy/retrieve article by himself.  If it's the former then the rabbit skins may be of great help, if it's the latter it may just make him more excited and more interested in hanging on to it to play with.  I'm sure he'll love them either way :-)

Hi karenclynes

No I don't think you've missed anything, your advice has been great.

It's not really the picking up that's the problem, except on memory retrieves when he gets distracted by undergrowth etc.  I think on those occasions the cover has been too deep for him at this stage and so have tried again later in very light cover or by a tree and he seems to work better.  Must say he always runs out enthusiastically.

The main problem has been the returning where he has been playing with the dummy, but since using treats he has improved no end, and at least returns to me with the dummy, sometimes delivering to hand (surprisingly he's getting the idea of handing over before taking the treat) and sometimes dropping the dummy just before reaching me, but I think this is my fault - the trainer pointed out that I'm tensing up as he approaches and this probably makes him drop it.

As we're making progress with him returning to me rather than playing with the dummy/retrieve article you may be right about the rabbit skin, it could possibly put us back to square one.  Perhaps I should wait until he's a little more experienced?

Thanks again for your great advice - that goes for all that have replied, we definitely seem to be making headway now and my confidence is growing which I'm sure makes a huge difference.

Susie

If it's a problem on returning how do you stand when he comes back?  Carmen has always been a horror, does the spaniel thing of going round you a couple of times before presenting, I now get down on one knee and she presents perfectly, although occassionally a little to enthusiastically and almost knocks me over.

Hi, I now crouch down on my knees and turn to one side and really really try to remember not to stretch out to him, with I think has also caused a problem as it looks like snatching - with Dudley (my other dog), if I almost lay down on the ground he comes flying on top of me, otherwise he does a circuit!!