Hi,

After getting such useful advice from my first post, I thought I'd quiz you all again... this time on a health topic.

My male Lab is 4 3/4 years old, and for the past 18 months he's been having the occasional strange episode.  His head starts to shake, his body goes rigid, he occasionally topples over... less than 60 seconds later he's fine.  So, obviously, I've been to the vets several times about this (it's probably only happened 6 times, well.. when I've been with him to see it anyway).  He's had liver function tests, an ECG, general blood work and urine tests.  All completely normal.  My vet and I didn't want to medicate him as it's certainly not a severe problem, so the plan was to observe him and note down anything and everything about these 'fits' - if indeed that is what they are.

The last couple of times I have checked his heart rate and breathing rate - no change before, during or after.  I can't determine any patterns of timing, food, exercise or behaviour.  The vet thinks this is a mild form of epilepsy, with unknown cause.  He says the next step is an MRI, but thinks it probably won't give us anymore insight.

The thing that I find so strange is my dog's alertness throughout these attacks.  I've always thought he's been completely conscious during them, as his eyes have followed me if I move.  He had one this morning and I decided to really test him - I asked for his left and right paw, told him to sit up, lie down, and did a recall.  His head was shaking throughout, and his movements weren't exactly co-ordinated, but he did as I asked with the same speed and enthusiasm as normal.  When he did the recall and a bit of walking, it was as if he walked it off - and it ended.  I can't be sure of this, as the episode could have been coming to its natural conclusion anyway... but I thought it was worth mentioning. 

Does anyone else have an epileptic dog with similar seizures?  Could it be anything else?  I'm just worried that this doesn't seem like a typical seizure, and it could be the sign of another underlying pathology.

Thanks,

Clare

Yes I have one very similar. Mine's a Golden. You cannot detect epilepsy by any tests so blood etc will be normal. (We did all this too.) If you do an MRI, it will cost you into four figures but it still won't tell you much so my own vet said it would be a waste of money. At best it could detect a brain tumour, but then what? If you found one and removed it (again at GREAT cost) it would still only buy another 6 months or so. If you don't find one, you'd still not know any more. Hence we never did an MRI. What I did, as my dog was always fit and healthy when seeing the vet, was FILM the next episode with my digital camera, and then I put it onto a CD and brought it to the vet.  My dog was off his legs but sitting up and also aware and looking at me. If given a command, he would try to carry it out but not be able to, so his head was definitely clear. His episodes were long though, lasting half an hour or more, coming every 6 days. (They got worse and worse.) After seeing the film, my vet said well it doesn't look like "normal" epilepsy (but now he understood what I meant at least), but let's try epilepsy medication. That's about 2 years ago now and the medication has stopped all the episodes. Occasionally he gets a very minor episode when he will sit and stare into a wall or stare on the ground and then snap out of it, but nothing more than that. It is very unlikely it was a brain tumour as he'd have been dead by now if it had been. Now he's tired, needs much shorter walks than before, he's forgotten what most of his commands mean (I assume this all due to the medication) but all in all has a pretty normal and happy life. :)

Thanks Marianne.  It's reassuring to know others have experienced similar fits.  How old was your Golden when it started?  I think unless these episodes become more frequent or more severe, I'll try and avoid the medication route, but glad it seems to have controlled your boy's fits.
Clare

He was 3 years old. Good luck with it all!

MarianneB

Ellis has severe epilepsy and has been on medication for it for the past 2 years.  My concern for you is that you say your dog has become tired and has forgotten most of his commands. 

With Ellis you would not even know that he was on medication, nothing about him has changed even though over the 2 years we have increased his dosage of epiphen as the fits have increased.

Perhaps next time you take him to the vet you could just ask about this, just to be safe.

Ellis was also 3 years old when his started, but he went straight into full blown fits.

One of my Lhasas is almost 8 and has been eplileptic for 6 years she just had one to start with then none for a year but has them quite often she is on medication but 8 weeks is the longest she seems to go between fits. Vet tried cutting tablet doseage down last month but she had 6 over 3 days she has half a phenobarbitone once a day and a potassium bromide once a day. She is fine other wise. Im willing to talk things over with people in the same sort of situation.

GSPMUM -the thing with my dog is, it isn't your "normal" epilepsy. Just like the OP mentioned here, it isn't your average fits when the dog is unaware, laying down etc -he is sitting up, fully aware of what is going on, and nobody has ever managed to work out WHAT it truly is. At the start a brain tumour was what everyone believed but as he is still alive and no worse 2 years later, this seems very unlikely. But as the epilepsy medications stops the fits/episodes/whatever, he's been able to lead a decent life, all it has meant is that he has to have shorter and less walks and can no longer do any training, other than that he's a very happy boy and he does of course get his regular 6 monthly check ups.

Just found out on another forum about something called 'paroxysmal dyskinesia' - really haven't done my research yet, but watched a video of a dog with this, and been reading about the symptoms in humans.  Wondering if this could actually be my boy's problem.  Has anyone heard of paroxysmal dyskinesia in dogs?
Thanks,
Clare

Interesting. Had never heard about it so Googled it and probably found the same video. Yes I could certainly believe this is what my dog has. Encouraging that it apparently isn't progressive!

It sounds as though (in humans) they often grow out of it... even better!  Apparently there is a research group interested in dogs with it, who are probably better able to diagnose it than our vets (as most vets will never have heard of it) and I believe they may be collecting DNA.  I'll try and find out contact details, and I can pass them on to you if you're interested Marianne?  Don't think there's any treatment as such though...

Yes please, would appreciate it!

Hi There . I've just found this thread as I searched "seizures"
My 7year old GSP girl has just had a funny turn. She was asleep in her basket when she suddenly got up & staggered across the floor to me.  Looked as if she had cramp in her right hind leg... She rolled on the floor very bewildered & When I looked she had rapid eye movement (rolling from side to side) ..I cradled her in my arms & she was not shaking just laid quietly with constant eye movements for about a minute. After about another minute she got up & was completley normal .. This is the 1 st time anything like this has happened (that I've witnessed)  because she seems to be a very healthy dog.
Wondered if this was a seizure .should I just keep an eye on her . I remained calm throughout but I am now watching her every twitch!

>When I looked she had rapid eye movement (rolling from side to side)

The flickering eye movement is much more symptomatic of vestibular syndrome than epilepsy.

Hi Jeangenie
I have googled Vestibular syndrome & it's really put the frighteners on me! Surely she would have some other signs if it was that bad...

Please don't worry! The vast majority of dogs recover from vestibular attacks with no ill-effects whatsoever. Some may need a little medication for a week or so, others don't. Some, especially elderly ones, can be left with a head-tilt afterwards, but are otherwise completely fine. Please talk to your vet about it - it's a much better prognosis than epilepsy.

Saga.. Vestibular Syndrome in dogs, has very similar symptoms to Ménière's disease in humans, something I have suffered from from 20odd years.. I think there are a few of us on CD with this.. its a dreadfully horrible feeling, but with medication its pretty much kept at bay, although there are occassional bouts of dreadfull vertigo/nausea etc..

It sounds really bad when reading everything about it.. but as JG said.. would rather have this, than Epilepsy..

> Surely she would have some other signs if it was that bad

Not always, as with Ménière's disease, each individual syptoms can vary, some live relatively normal lives and hardly notice it, others like myself who have bilateral Meniere's have more serious symptoms.. but still live a relatively normal life (or at least try to lol)

Have a word with your vet, help put you more at ease, and work out a level of medication that suits your girl

Hi Clare.
There is a condition called "Canine Epileptoid Cramping Syndrome" or CECS, that affects dogs and is often confused with Epilepsy.  I have seen Labs with it, and my breed (Border Terriers) have been known to have it and breeders are doing their best, with geneticists to find out the cause and hopefully cure.

The MAIN difference between CECS and Epilspy, is that cramping dogs do NOT lose consciousness, they remain alert and will try to respond to you.  They "cramp" and are rigid, sometimes their back legs, tail, back or whole body will be rigid.

You can read more on my site, it also contains a link to the official site which may help you too.

http://www.emblehope.co.uk/health

Thanks Dawn.

Not heard of that one.  Again, it sounds more like my boy's problem than classical epilepsy.  The first time I went to the vet about it I did describe it as 'cramping'.  It often begins with his hind legs and 'ripples' through his body.  Dexter's never had any abdominal cramping though.

Interesting that it can possibly be controlled by diet.  He once had an attack immediately after he found and ate a fizzy jelly sweet :-o

So plan to mention CECS and paroxysmal dyskinesia to my vet, as both seem to fit.  Can't really work out if there are any differences (in terms of symptoms) between the two though. 

Thanks for the extra info!

Clare

Hi,

never heard of the other other things suggested for your question but i do know alot about seizures as my daughter suffers from them.
i don't know if dogs react the same when they seizure but my daughter does have rapid eye movement  or the eye turning to the right or left as if staring. not sure thats much help but i'd be straight off to the vets to get this checked out.
hope everything goes ok.   

No problem.

If you could catch an episode on video it would be helpful for your Vet and you in determining the cause.  If you go on youtube and search for "CECS"  you will see several videos of cramping Borders for you to compare.  I did have 2 videos of Labs cramping, but I cant find either!!!  If I do Ill let you know.  I do remember that one had an arched back and was sort of rocking back and forth, but was very stiff.

Hi Strange that the connection between CECS & VS has been made.... My friend has a border terrier who had an attack of CECS (spikes disease) & pre attack she notice a strange cauliflower-like smell coming from him... This very same smell was noticable from my girl pre attack! The symptoms are similar but the cramping is on one leg & there are balancing issues. I have found this site which describes the attack my girl had ...but in a very very mild form.

http://www.irishdogs.ie/information/vet/Vestibular%20Syndrome.htm

I know this is an old post - but I haven't been on here for quite some time - so I've just noticed it.
The labrador seen in the video clip mentioned is probably Monty - my 5 yr old black lab.  He has been diagnosed as having paroxysmal dyskinesia.
If I can be of any help please get back to me